LTA calls tender for mock-ups for Concept Bus
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For me I believe that instead of looking at fanciful concept designs (like those that led to the overall design of the NB4L), LTA is actually looking for something more functional, perhaps 3 door configuration RHD buses, different types of seating configurations and even the interior layout to see which one works the best for our country. The tender closes in about a month time, so I doubt we will see anything that is too different, but I'm sure that there would be some innovative ideas that the maufacturers/designers would come up with in the meantime.
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Originally posted by SBS2601D:
What is a "prestige project"?
And how is this "prestigious"?
The simple mind of mine only conceives it as a way for the Authority to evaluate and assess options for purchasing buses.
Perhaps you could fire up my imagination and then I can somehow "contribute" to this forum.
Or not.
If they really needed to evaluate different choices of buses, they wouldn't need to come out with a concept for buses. What they simply needed to do was to wait for whenever they need the buses, come out with a tender, then evaluate from there, which is what most bus companies and transit authorities are doing now, and even if they really wanted to see how different buses perform before making a purchase, they could have gave their specifications and asked for demonstrators.
You don't see a lot of other cities with concept buses. Coupled with the fact that the main issue with public transport now is connectivity and overcrowding, a concept bus ala NBFL is really just a waste of money then, its simply a prestige project for certain civil servants to show that they have done a part to improve public transport, when they really haven't touched the root issues.
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Originally posted by SBS9C:
For me I believe that instead of looking at fanciful concept designs (like those that led to the overall design of the NB4L), LTA is actually looking for something more functional, perhaps 3 door configuration RHD buses, different types of seating configurations and even the interior layout to see which one works the best for our country. The tender closes in about a month time, so I doubt we will see anything that is too different, but I'm sure that there would be some innovative ideas that the maufacturers/designers would come up with in the meantime.
If they are really looking for a 3 door configuration RHD bus, with a one month tender period, it really shows how much they know about buses (or the lack of knowledge). There are very few products in the market that suit that requirement, in fact all the big European manufacturers don't have it and it will take many months to come out with such a product. I can only think of the NBFL and the 3 door Optare Tempo, the former made possible with a small engine, and the latter having a design which will not solve the issue of people not moving back, whilst taking up more space where seats could have been, in fact the door position of the 3rd door doesn't look significantly further back as compared to the rear door of the A22.
And if they are still trying to see which layout of buses are best suited for this country, I suggest that they look closer at SBS and SMRT. It just reeks of arrogance that civil servants think they can find a better choice than what SBS and SMRT have; what makes them think SBS and SMRT haven't been trying their best in terms of configuration - especially when LTA did nothing to improve the situation until they came out with BSEP, the bus companies are a step ahead, I'm afraid.
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Originally posted by SBS351M:
If they really needed to evaluate different choices of buses, they wouldn't need to come out with a concept for buses. What they simply needed to do was to wait for whenever they need the buses, come out with a tender, then evaluate from there, which is what most bus companies and transit authorities are doing now, and even if they really wanted to see how different buses perform before making a purchase, they could have gave their specifications and asked for demonstrators.
You don't see a lot of other cities with concept buses. Coupled with the fact that the main issue with public transport now is connectivity and overcrowding, a concept bus ala NBFL is really just a waste of money then, its simply a prestige project for certain civil servants to show that they have done a part to improve public transport, when they really haven't touched the root issues.
The whole point of a mock-up is to evaluate potential new features and invite potential feedback. LTA has done this before with the DTL rolling stock:
http://www.railwaygazette.com/news/single-view/view/downtown-line-train-mock-up-goes-on-display.html
If you recall last year, there was considerable academic and public criticism relating to the interior configuration of the existing buses, especially double-deck buses, operating in Singapore:
http://sgforums.com/forums/1279/topics/487180
A concept bus mock-up may be an attempt to address these issues and get the specifications right before calling tender for actual procurements.
Furthermore, both operators took very different approaches when it comes to deciding the interior configuration of their latest buses (e.g. longitudinal vs traverse seating, swing-out door vs sliding plug door, fold-up seats vs standing space, passenger information systems, etc.). It is also possible that these design choices remain proprietary information within the operators, or/and there is a need to reconcile these differences to come up with a new common standard.
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Originally posted by SexyMichael:
let's do some math, with some assumptions to begin with (what's discussions without assumptions
)1. a 12.4m DD will have the same number of seats as a 12m DD (let's say 83 seats)
2. a PIW lift has tto be able to access both floors (hence its a lift)
3. the floor area of the PIW lift (including the lift mechanisms) occupies the area equivalent to 4 seats on every floor
4. if we have 2 lifts, that makes (4 x 2 x 2) = 16 seats lost
5. we are hence left with (83 - 16) = 67 seats remaining
of which
there are only 47 seats left on the upper deck!6. okay this is getting ridiculous. is it even safe for PIWs to even park below the PIW lift?
7. most PIW lifts are designed for 1 PIW only, so if there are 2 PIW lifts how many seats are we giving up for PIWs? (if there are even that many PIWs taking the buses to start with)
12.4m bus may have another 4 seats. Lifts will not replace stairs. 14.5m bus will have two sets of stairs and 1 lift.
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Originally posted by ButIAmAToilet:
What are the chances of having more then 1 PIW in a WAB in any one time? 1 PIW is enough IMO
The PIW space can be for folded bikes, prams and grocery trolleys. Maybe in future, there could be more than 1 PIW at any time.
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If really 12m 3 doors dual staircase then the bus will have lesser seats..Just for the sake of concept
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Waste time la install lift,Might as well make a 1st staircase behind the driver cab and another one at the rear..
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Originally posted by carbikebus:
If really 12m 3 doors dual staircase then the bus will have lesser seats..Just for the sake of concept
1 staircase take up 12 seats, 1 door take up 4 seats. we would have only 66 seats left. Faster alighting as compared to the current E50s and Wrights but lesser seats. Stairs is why our current DDs have slightly longer dwell times.
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the idea of this new london DD bus model is people can use the front stair to go up and exit to the back stair. and the sit from the lower deck arrange like the army five toners in row and front sit can be fold up for wheelchair with a press of button from the driver. the single deck version like wise but all sit in row can fold up if the bus service is alway full, feeder service can use this bus. only old people can use the front row sit which is for 8 person if request driver can unfold the front sit.
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considering a 23.5m bendy bus.
this would add another 20-25 seats. But there is already much problems with a 18m bendy, how many will support a 23.5m bendy with 3 carriages.
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i'm amazed at how many people are 'playing expert' once word about LTA asking for 'concept buses' has spread on the forums
12.4/5m buses, 14.5m buses, PIW lifts, double staircases??? even 3 door RHD designs, are these the things that we really need to fine-tune our transportation system?
keep your disdain of the civil service to yourself, because they are trying to solve issues (or improve on) whatever the PTOs may have been lacking in in the past decades. similarly, how LTA is handling the 'concept bus' issue is akin to 'industry days' in the USA where the US government sources the best from what the industry can offer for its requirements, the latest of one such example being the Individual Carbine Project.
also, dont let your fanboyism of the PTOs cloud your judgement. The PTOs are clearly capable of more, but something's gone wrong somewhere that we'll leave LTA to fix.
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Originally posted by SMB145B:
single decks could possibly be either rigids or bendies.
They would have mentioned that clearly. Single decks in no way anywhere in the world is a used word for articulated buses.
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Originally posted by SMB145B:
1 staircase take up 12 seats, 1 door take up 4 seats. we would have only 66 seats left. Faster alighting as compared to the current E50s and Wrights but lesser seats. Stairs is why our current DDs have slightly longer dwell times.
They can design straight staircase type which save spaces..That is why need longer than 12 m else its wasted..
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But again a wider exit door at the centre of the bus is also another option
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Originally posted by BusAnalayzer:
They would have mentioned that clearly. Single decks in no way anywhere in the world is a used word for articulated buses.
Hard to say here. We have three types of buses. For SBST, B10Ms, KUBs are Single Decks (SD) while CDGE, Wright, VO2x, VO3x are Double Decks (DD). As for Tibs, O405s, OCs and A22s are Rigids; O405Gs and A24s are Bendies; E50s and A95s are DDs. SMRT Taros are Rigids but the SBST one are SDs.
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Originally posted by SBS351M:
If they really needed to evaluate different choices of buses, they wouldn't need to come out with a concept for buses. What they simply needed to do was to wait for whenever they need the buses, come out with a tender, then evaluate from there, which is what most bus companies and transit authorities are doing now, and even if they really wanted to see how different buses perform before making a purchase, they could have gave their specifications and asked for demonstrators.
You don't see a lot of other cities with concept buses. Coupled with the fact that the main issue with public transport now is connectivity and overcrowding, a concept bus ala NBFL is really just a waste of money then, its simply a prestige project for certain civil servants to show that they have done a part to improve public transport, when they really haven't touched the root issues.
PT236 Concept Bus Mock-up
Calling for: One single deck or double deck Concept Bus mock-up or both
Closing date: 3 June 2015
Delivery date: 17 September 2015
Source: http://www.lta.gov.sg/apps/tender/
See highlighted. Simi London simi NBFL so cheem.
I see mock-up = not real bus.
You mean everyday mock-up buses come and pick us up?
I see no reason why the Authority wants to try new things without commiting themselves to something more serious like a demonstrator (who in the Authority will drive the bus?).
I would be very curious to see what creative designs the bidders will give, without thinking about simi lift in bus la, horse-powered bus la.
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Originally posted by SMB145B:
Hard to say here. We have three types of buses. For SBST, B10Ms, KUBs are Single Decks (SD) while CDGE, Wright, VO2x, VO3x are Double Decks (DD). As for Tibs, O405s, OCs and A22s are Rigids; O405Gs and A24s are Bendies; E50s and A95s are DDs. SMRT Taros are Rigids but the SBST one are SDs.
Fine.
You can go and register a company under GeBiz, bid for the tender with a bendy, and then you come back and tell us whether you win or not.
If the Authority is really bandy-ing words as you seem to imagine, then good for you.
If not they will just call your bid non-compliant and out you go.
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Originally posted by SBS351M:
If they are really looking for a 3 door configuration RHD bus, with a one month tender period, it really shows how much they know about buses (or the lack of knowledge). There are very few products in the market that suit that requirement, in fact all the big European manufacturers don't have it and it will take many months to come out with such a product. I can only think of the NBFL and the 3 door Optare Tempo, the former made possible with a small engine, and the latter having a design which will not solve the issue of people not moving back, whilst taking up more space where seats could have been, in fact the door position of the 3rd door doesn't look significantly further back as compared to the rear door of the A22.
And if they are still trying to see which layout of buses are best suited for this country, I suggest that they look closer at SBS and SMRT. It just reeks of arrogance that civil servants think they can find a better choice than what SBS and SMRT have; what makes them think SBS and SMRT haven't been trying their best in terms of configuration - especially when LTA did nothing to improve the situation until they came out with BSEP, the bus companies are a step ahead, I'm afraid.
Tender open =/= tender implementation.
The idea of a tender is for submission of rough proposals and cost and evaluate based on proposed deliverables.
Existing ideas can be combined and re-packaged to make an awesome proposal. But the proposals aren't 100% cast-in-stone and are usually intentionally made vague at times to allow flexibility. And there is always requirements-gathering as well to further refine the design.
Before you keep saying LTA CMI LTA CMI LTA CMI, just hold your horses and see la, alamak. LTA isn't some demi-god, but neither are the PTOs.
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just wondering. why must have mock-up? why not just do everything inside computer?
I think got something to do with capacity. I think they want to see how many people can be inside the bus... how fast can alight, etcetera...
maybe they want to experiment seat layout, etcetera...
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Originally posted by JurongWestresident:
just wondering. why must have mock-up? why not just do everything inside computer?
I think got something to do with capacity. I think they want to see how many people can be inside the bus... how fast can alight, etcetera...
maybe they want to experiment seat layout, etcetera...
Simple - when they use computer to see your commuter pattern, you all say never get hand dirty.
Now get hand dirty, you all will say wayang and too arrogant.
Case of damned if you do, damned if you don't.
I may also add that the mock-up can be used for bus fans to give their hundred and one opinions. Can open up to public to touch and rub and poke and give comments ma.
Wasn't that what good sgbuses had already mentioned in an earlier post??
Sgbuses - I can never understand why you wanna share such tasty news nuggets to these people. Clearly they don't bother reading carefully whatever you post.
I don't care about being popular, but it bothers me slightly when people try to share good things, and it gets very underwhelming responses.
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Originally posted by JurongWestresident:
just wondering. why must have mock-up? why not just do everything inside computer?
I think got something to do with capacity. I think they want to see how many people can be inside the bus... how fast can alight, etcetera...
maybe they want to experiment seat layout, etcetera...
A computerised image and real mock-up present different feel and excitment. Computerised will only allow the teams to suggest here, there and everywhere, but when it comes to a real mock-up, they can see the real problems surfacing when tests are done on-site. Cannot everything trust computer...
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By the way, wonder if LTA will suggest a Wright or A22 or a Citaro to be use as the mock-up bus, just like SMB148T used as SBS Transit's evaluation bus before handing over to SMRT.
Since Wright/A22/Citaro are currently still under production, it would be nice if each of these model can come with only exterior assembled, then the teams to do mock up interiors see what can they do.
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Originally posted by SBS2601D:
Fine.
You can go and register a company under GeBiz, bid for the tender with a bendy, and then you come back and tell us whether you win or not.
If the Authority is really bandy-ing words as you seem to imagine, then good for you.
If not they will just call your bid non-compliant and out you go.
...omg what is wrong with you? i find you so funny lor. You know our govt is good at something. the 12.4m DD with lift is the main thing not the 23.5m bendy. lol
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Originally posted by SBS2601D:
Simple - when they use computer to see your commuter pattern, you all say never get hand dirty.
Now get hand dirty, you all will say wayang and too arrogant.
Case of damned if you do, damned if you don't.
I may also add that the mock-up can be used for bus fans to give their hundred and one opinions. Can open up to public to touch and rub and poke and give comments ma.
Wasn't that what good sgbuses had already mentioned in an earlier post??
Sgbuses - I can never understand why you wanna share such tasty news nuggets to these people. Clearly they don't bother reading carefully whatever you post.
I don't care about being popular, but it bothers me slightly when people try to share good things, and it gets very underwhelming responses.
I was hoping to set the record straight with solid information to clear the high seas of rumours and disinformation prevalent in this community. I was expecting older folks with some institutional knowledge to offer some useful comment.
Clearly, I was wrong. There are lobbyists who even belittle the significance of this news.
Perhaps the only explanation is that we now live in a new generation of young lobbyists who possess zero institutional knowledge (because it no longer exists) and assume that they know everything. Hence the responses which IMO is worse than asking any passerby who possess no prior knowledge of buses.
I truly fear for Singapore's future of public bus transportation.