My "Christian" Experience
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Originally posted by Mrlimkopi:
you better check if protestant can marry catholics first before you worry about the catholic church.
my friend (protestant) want to marry a catholic (20 years ago) and his pastor say NO! anyway, he is happy married with the catholic but he is still a protestant but everyweek, go with the whole family to a catholic church.
he never accept anything catholic before...now, after 20 years of going to catholic church, he knows many things he thought before was bias and untrue....I.E. the info that his church members gave him was incorrect.
so check the protestant stand.....
Regarding the marriage issue,
my impression is Protestant can marry the Catholic and even raise the kid as a non-Catholic, they won't excommunicate the Catholic parent or the kid lah.
BUT because you are non Catholic (non-aligned with Rome), you can't partake in the sacraments. So maybe you can't hold your marriage in church or something? The point is the priest will not forbid you like the pastor in your example, just that you shouldn't expect your marriage be held in a 'Catholic way'.
When the kid grows up, he is free to make his own decision. Attend RCIA, get baptised as Catholic or join the Protestants.
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Originally posted by Chin Eng:
all the best.....see? malcom, I am not anti-catholic.
at this point some other Christians will start to ask dumb2 to go for counselling
Now I see
Anyway I can understand if dumbdumb! not interested in Catholic teachings, However since you know a bit now the real teachings, nothing can stop you for being a good Catholic and remind your fellow brothers to take their faith more seriously.
Like what my priest once said, we may be born Catholic but at one point of time with the love of God, we may experience our own "conversion", and come back to follow Jesus.Originally posted by dumbdumb!:either that or the catholics will ask her for councilling.
which gives me a question. what happens if a catholic and a protestant marry. i heard that they can only marry if they promise to raise the kid in the catholic faith, or it won't be recognised by the catholic church.
and there's a friend in my church who is dating a catholic guy. and both of them are going to anglican side. is he gonna get excommunicated? and what does that mean?
Catholic Church allow its members to marry non Catholic with local Bishop approval, but both must agree to raise the children in Catholic faith.
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Let me post this to make dumbdumb feel happier .. haha
Priest asks Singapore church to be more missionary
By Daniel TaySINGAPORE – “I feel the Catholic Church in Singapore needs an examination of conscience,” said Father Albert Renckens at the World Mission Sunday Mass held at Blessed Sacrament Church on Oct 21. The Mass was organized by the Archdiocesan Commission for Missionary Activity.
Referring to Pope Benedict XVI’s message for the 81st World Mission Sunday, Father Renckens explained in his homily the pope’s call for all the churches not to stop sending missionaries despite their dwindling numbers of vocations.
Quoting from the message, he said that “the church is missionary by its very nature” and that “it is highly appropriate that young churches should share in the universal missionary work of the church by sending missionaries”.
“Are our priests meeting people and evangelizing?” he asked. “What are our priests doing?”
“Only Catholic things,” said Father Renckens in answer to his own question. “In Singapore the Catholic Church is doing so many good things, but at the same time, we fail to reach out to non-Christians in Singapore and in other countries. In other words, we are a ‘maintenance church’.”
“This is because there is no missionary spirit,” Father Renckens said.
But there is hope because the power of prayer which can change things can change us, concluded Father Renckens. “Ask the Lord of the harvest to send labourers to gather the harvest. Who are the labourers? Us.”
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hallelujah =) that's what i wanted to hear.
sorry just got home. =)
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Originally posted by Icemoon:
Regarding the marriage issue,
my impression is Protestant can marry the Catholic and even raise the kid as a non-Catholic, they won't excommunicate the Catholic parent or the kid lah.
BUT because you are non Catholic (non-aligned with Rome), you can't partake in the sacraments. So maybe you can't hold your marriage in church or something? The point is the priest will not forbid you like the pastor in your example, just that you shouldn't expect your marriage be held in a 'Catholic way'.
When the kid grows up, he is free to make his own decision. Attend RCIA, get baptised as Catholic or join the Protestants.
Confused liao...if follow protestant, no communion or sacraments to talk about mah....only becomes a problem if follow Catholic (but can over-come one)....
Since dumbdumb strong protestant, I suppose follow protestant lor.
As far as I know, non-Catholic can get married in a Catholic Church as long as 1 one them is a baptised Catholic.
In my friend's case, his pastor say NO and cannot marry in church. He married in a Catholic Church and wonder why Catholic more accomodating so he goes for mass lah...the rest as they said is history.
But I am not sure if anything changed now becasue that was 20 years ago...
But you seems like your understanding the same as mine. But quite strange for a protestant to get married in a Catholic Church (whom they HATE like poison - bear in mind all priest are guys) and then ask the wife to go protestant church - after making use of the Catholic Church?
And what meaning is there to get married in a Church that you HATE and what value is there? Worst if they think any Saint or Mother Mary is blessing their marriage....too confusing liao....
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Originally posted by Icemoon:
Let me post this to make dumbdumb feel happier .. haha
Yes, we all know and agree on this but as you can see, we have shortage of vocations.
We are praying hard for vocations......in case people do not know, we mean praying for more young people to enter priesthood, brotherhood or sisterhood. It's not a job and simply hire one.....it's God's calling and those being called to respond. The training of a priest is about 7-8 years!!
Priest's vocation is not part time, is not on week-end only, it's 24/7 and they stay in a church and serving the community under the church (and no pay, no cpf - only an allowance for survival).
And it's not just evangelising......Icemoon will know, there are various scramental needs of parisoners that need to be taken care of (which is important to Catholics). Beside, there are schools, nurshing homes, hospice and various other issues.
I think the message is mis-understood because it is talking about priests and not Catholics as a whole.....so dumbdumb, don't get mixed up.
On the same token, I have yet to meet any pastor going out to evangelising.......
Catholics like us (lay people) do reach out or there will be no baptisim...... So, dumbdumd, don't rejoice yet.....
If we just "chiong ah"....we end up like dumbdumb now being challenged in another thread (No offense to christians). Let's see if he can stand up to his faith and challenge posted to him. Or is he going to back down again?......siam here siam there and change subject....
That's a classic example of wrong way to reach out...... and end result will make people think more lowly about christians even when that is not the intention. Is this the kind of evangelising we want? I rather don't have it.....
Meet your challenge head on man......
I almost forgot, "hallelujah =)"
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Originally posted by Mrlimkopi:
Yes, it's a personal choice...till now, dumbdumb still not sure what he is discussing about.... if you can, help him lah....you easier to talk to him because he listen to you. Teach him about once saved always saved otherwise, he keep slapping his own face and get angry with Catholics.....blaming us..
I really have no interest to help anyone. We all have our own stand on various issues. I will never say that I am totally right. I will attempt to understand your stand, as long as you don't insist that you are absolute correct.
I don't think he should listen to me, neither do I think that he is listening to me. Perhaps what I write echoes his thoughts.
Originally posted by Icemoon:I'm not so sure you know. :P
I mean, if my millions erroneously? believe in salvation by faith and work, are they going to get saved? This is for dumbdumb to answer.
From the ordo salutis (ahem), the answer to your question is, only God knows who is saved and who is not.
that being the case, according to you..... no salvation is assured. that will make the entire Christian faith a farce, isn't it.
actually, I'm not sure you know either.
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Originally posted by Mrlimkopi:
I think the message is mis-understood because it is talking about priests and not Catholics as a whole.....so dumbdumb, don't get mixed up.
Opps, happy for one night only.
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Originally posted by malcom:
Now I see
Anyway I can understand if dumbdumb! not interested in Catholic teachings, However since you know a bit now the real teachings, nothing can stop you for being a good Catholic and remind your fellow brothers to take their faith more seriously.
Like what my priest once said, we may be born Catholic but at one point of time with the love of God, we may experience our own "conversion", and come back to follow Jesus.
why do you say I am a catholic? I am not and not likely will be.no one's born a catholic or christian.
you still have not apologized for your remarks. do that or prove that i am anti-catholic!
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Originally posted by Chin Eng:
that being the case, according to you..... no salvation is assured. that will make the entire Christian faith a farce, isn't it.
actually, I'm not sure you know either.
There is assurance of grace and salvation. But then, you don't just tell anybody who responds to the altar call or get baptised, "you are saved", as if you know he is really saved. What if they turn out to be those Jesus turned away (away from me, you evildoer)?
If Christianity is a relationship between the disciple and the Lord, then the question can only be answered by those in the relationship. Are you in the relationship? Nope, you are in your own relationship. As such, you can answer your own question, not theirs.
To quote the WCF,
1. Although hypocrites and other unregenerate men may vainly deceive themselves with false hopes and carnal presumptions of being in the favour of God, and estate of salvation (which hope of theirs shall perish): yet such as truly believe in the Lord Jesus, and love Him in sincerity, endeavouring to walk in all good conscience before Him, may, in this life, be certainly assured that they are in the state of grace, and may rejoice in the hope of the glory of God, which hope shall never make them ashamed.
2. This certainty is not a bare conjectural and probable persuasion grounded upon a fallible hope; but an infallible assurance of faith founded upon the divine truth of the promises of salvation, the inward evidence of those graces unto which these promises are made, the testimony of the Spirit of adoption witnessing with our spirits that we are the children of God, which Spirit is the earnest of our inheritance, whereby we are sealed to the day of redemption.
3. This infallible assurance doth not so belong to the essence of faith, but that a true believer may wait long, and conflict with many difficulties, before he be partaker of it: yet, being enabled by the Spirit to know the things which are freely given him of God, he may, without extraordinary revelation in the right use of ordinary means, attain thereunto. And therefore it is the duty of every one to give all diligence to make his calling and election sure, that thereby his heart may be enlarged in peace and joy in the Holy Ghost, in love and thankfulness to God, and in strength and cheerfulness in the duties of obedience, the proper fruits of this assurance; so far is it from inclining men to looseness.
4. True believers may have the assurance of their salvation divers ways shaken, diminished, and intermitted; as, by negligence in preserving of it, by falling into some special sin which woundeth the conscience and grieveth the Spirit; by some sudden or vehement temptation, by God's withdrawing the light of His countenance, and suffering even such as fear Him to walk in darkness and to have no light: yet are they never utterly destitute of that seed of God, and life of faith, that love of Christ and the brethren, that sincerity of heart, and conscience of duty, out of which, by the operation of the Spirit, this assurance may, in due time, be revived; and be the which, in the mean time, they are supported from utter despair.
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Originally posted by Mrlimkopi:
Confused liao...if follow protestant, no communion or sacraments to talk about mah....only becomes a problem if follow Catholic (but can over-come one)....
Since dumbdumb strong protestant, I suppose follow protestant lor.
As far as I know, non-Catholic can get married in a Catholic Church as long as 1 one them is a baptised Catholic.
In my friend's case, his pastor say NO and cannot marry in church. He married in a Catholic Church and wonder why Catholic more accomodating so he goes for mass lah...the rest as they said is history.
But I am not sure if anything changed now becasue that was 20 years ago...
But you seems like your understanding the same as mine. But quite strange for a protestant to get married in a Catholic Church (whom they HATE like poison - bear in mind all priest are guys) and then ask the wife to go protestant church - after making use of the Catholic Church?
And what meaning is there to get married in a Church that you HATE and what value is there? Worst if they think any Saint or Mother Mary is blessing their marriage....too confusing liao....
Very interesting, I never thought of that - which church to solemise the wedding. Haha, imagine your wedding cert got the Fr so and so signature.
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Originally posted by Chin Eng:
why do you say I am a catholic? I am not and not likely will be.no one's born a catholic or christian.
you still have not apologized for your remarks. do that or prove that i am anti-catholic!
I apologize for the confusion, actually the second paragraph is for dumbdumb! but I didn't make it clear, although I know the remark is a bit overstretch
.I didn't say you or dumbdumb! anti-catolic, but I said you were taking a remark from a Catholic to the Protestant too personally, I didn't "attack" Protestant at all, it is just showing my understanding of the verses.
As for third paragraph, I was talking about dumbdumb! 90 percent of Catholic friends who don't live to their faith.
Again, sorry for the confusion
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hi there,
1st of all, I'm a catholic.. also..
oww.. there seem to be a "tussle" going on with limkopi and dumb dumb.. dumb dumb is not dumb after all.. he's good at the bible.. lol!!
seems to me i'll be the next victim of dumb dumb..hahah..
I have to admit i'm not very well versed in the scriptures or the bible, neither i'm a bible scholar.. credit to dumb dumb for all the bible quotes.. we catholics (most of them!!) are not very good in bible quotes.. but nvertheless we are learning ..
ok.. the difference.. in catholics and protestant is the date of founding.. of the church.. the catholic church was founded by Jesus Christ some 2,000 yrs ago.. At that time, the bible was not in yet.. maybe excpt the old testament.. correct?? So.. the people at that time carved out images or statues of Jesus, Mary, and othe saints to remind them of Jesus, Mary when they pray.. Hence, the images.. therefore, you see statues of jesus, mary and all other saints as you enter into any catholic church anywhere in the world. It's a tradition.. btw, we are not praying to idols.. the images or statues gives us the sense of sacredness and reverence of acknowledgement of God and his holy saints. Also, it tell us when the time comes for us to leave this world, which is temporary, we will join them in eternal paradise. Thirdly, it is asking them to pray for us just like asking you to pray for me.. nothing else.. My favorite image is Mother Mary carrying the infant Jesus .. This image tell us to love Jesus with all our heart and soul just like mother mary.
The protestant reform came in the 16th century when martin luther saw that the clergy in catholic church was corrupted in indulgence. indulgence is a partial or full remissison of sins when you attend certain devotions. .delcared by the pope. The clergy? sold the indulgence for money and many were living in sinful lives. Apparently Luther was fed up with this and started the reformation and said that his teaching was based on faith alone..
before that, also have a few breakaway from the catholic church like the armenian church.. eg.. The orthodox church shared the same beliefs with us except that they do not recognise the pope. However, recently talks are underway for closer ecumenism or unity
hope that helps..
cheers
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icemoon,
for marriage,
the church would prefer that that catholic marry a fellow catholic and raised the children as catholics. If you ask me, unless the other half is catholic or intend to be a catholic by going to RCIA, then it would be ok.. to marry in the catholic church (Dispensation is required form the local bishop). .otherwise. forget it! . It is important that the chidren raised as catholic.. This is one most important part of being a catholic parent. why?? If children are raised good catholics, a sense of godliness and christian attitudes will prevail in thier lives. Eg praying?? If you teach them to pray.. there will come a time that praying will be seen as important just as eating.. in times of crisis, joy.. wat do we do.. pray lahh of course..
By asking the non catholic spouse to attend RCIA , is a way of testing whether he or she is serious abt the faith..esp it is a long journey abt 9 months ?? esp the other half is a comitted catholic. Along the way, topics, raised are contraception, abortion, divorce etc.. then true colors will be seen as whetr he or she is comfortable with the church teachings.. no contracrp,only the natural way or NFP, no abortion.. like it or not.. no DIVORCE..haha?? wat no divorce?? mana boleh.. in this century?? If he or she cannot or will not accept the teachings.. then it would be better not to marry or face bitternness later on.
Sacraments like holy communion is only for baptised catholics. The marriage or holy matrimony is ok in church only with the dispensation from bishop.
hope that helps
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Originally posted by Catholicuser:
icemoon,
for marriage,
the church would prefer that that catholic marry a fellow catholic and raised the children as catholics. If you ask me, unless the other half is catholic or intend to be a catholic by going to RCIA, then it would be ok.. to marry in the catholic church (Dispensation is required form the local bishop). .otherwise. forget it! . It is important that the chidren raised as catholic.. This is one most important part of being a catholic parent. why?? If children are raised good catholics, a sense of godliness and christian attitudes will prevail in thier lives. Eg praying?? If you teach them to pray.. there will come a time that praying will be seen as important just as eating.. in times of crisis, joy.. wat do we do.. pray lahh of course..
By asking the non catholic spouse to attend RCIA , is a way of testing whether he or she is serious abt the faith..esp it is a long journey abt 9 months ?? esp the other half is a comitted catholic. Along the way, topics, raised are contraception, abortion, divorce etc.. then true colors will be seen as whetr he or she is comfortable with the church teachings.. no contracrp,only the natural way or NFP, no abortion.. like it or not.. no DIVORCE..haha?? wat no divorce?? mana boleh.. in this century?? If he or she cannot or will not accept the teachings.. then it would be better not to marry or face bitternness later on.
Sacraments like holy communion is only for baptised catholics. The marriage or holy matrimony is ok in church only with the dispensation from bishop.
hope that helps
Wah, we were discussing Catholic and Protestant marriage. I think raising a Protestant kid or Catholic kid almost the same lah. Don't tell me you train the kids to use the rosary too?
Praying Protestants also know how to pray lah, just no set pieces like Hail Mary.
No contraception? If use condom is husband use mah. If the Catholic party happens to be wife, can she stop that? Extra protection mah, what if natural planning fails or they wish to take risk?
In my view, all these say say only. Assuming you are one staunch Catholic, the fact you are willing to marry a Protestant means you love him or her very much. And you should have discussed the potential difficulties with him or her. So when priest asks the couple whether they will agree to raise the kid as Catholic, they say yes lah.
In my view again, Catholic or Protestant kid, they live very similar lifestyle when young. Till they reach 16. RCIA before Confirmation. Then they will have to make a decision.
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Originally posted by Icemoon:
Wah, we were discussing Catholic and Protestant marriage. I think raising a Protestant kid or Catholic kid almost the same lah. Don't tell me you train the kids to use the rosary too?
Praying Protestants also know how to pray lah, just no set pieces like Hail Mary.
No contraception? If use condom is husband use mah. If the Catholic party happens to be wife, can she stop that? Extra protection mah, what if natural planning fails or they wish to take risk?
In my view, all these say say only. Assuming you are one staunch Catholic, the fact you are willing to marry a Protestant means you love him or her very much. And you should have discussed the potential difficulties with him or her. So when priest asks the couple whether they will agree to raise the kid as Catholic, they say yes lah.
In my view again, Catholic or Protestant kid, they live very similar lifestyle when young. Till they reach 16. RCIA before Confirmation. Then they will have to make a decision.
yeah. i mean, christians pray what they feel in their heart, i don't really see the need to follow the hail marys, or the lord's prayer etc. like if i feel upset, i just talk to God about it, how i feel etc, if i'm sorry for something, i just apologise for it etc.
lol, but of course, it's the kid's choice in the end. i'm only suppose to raise my kid up "in the way of the Lord". if it's possible of course i'd love it if my kid becomes a protestant.
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Originally posted by dumbdumb!:
yeah. i mean, christians pray what they feel in their heart, i don't really see the need to follow the hail marys, or the lord's prayer etc. like if i feel upset, i just talk to God about it, how i feel etc, if i'm sorry for something, i just apologise for it etc.
lol, but of course, it's the kid's choice in the end. i'm only suppose to raise my kid up "in the way of the Lord". if it's possible of course i'd love it if my kid becomes a protestant.
The Lord's Prayer is a prayer that Jesus taught his disciple.....when they ask Him how they should pray.............maybe the bible did not say so.....??
If Jesus teach us to pray that way, is it really hard to see the need to follow??
Should I raise my kids up telling them bible - no need to follow but we are good christians? Jesus teach ok, but don't see the need to follow?? Do you know what and why Hail Mary? If not, find our first before say anything......
Don't hope if you kid is protestant or catholic or any denomination, hope they are loving and not being brought up with hate and frustration.....
What do you intend to do with the challenge in "No offence to christians" ?? I am waiting............
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dumb dumb,
I'm sorry that yr aunt did not tell you the good news of Jesus much earlier. Maybe, she did not want to offend you.. as you were buddhists at that time?? You see, religion to the catholics is much on personal basis. Most Catholics, do not want to open up their religion to others.. me included. Reasons, dun want to offend others, not sure what to say.. etc.. sakli say wrong dunno how to answer malu. sia.. Probably she was like that..
Anyway, arent you glad to accept the Lord as yr God and savior.. ?? Sure you doo.. !!
On yr questions.. the brown cloth I thin k you are refering to the scapular.. it's green or brown.. You see. all these are devotions. you need not follow them.if you dun want to If if you do and pray with faith, i,e recite the no of our fathers, hail marys and glory be as required the it would be alright.. . so along you dun do with superstitions..
As for praying to saint (intercessory prayer) it's ok.. you are asking him to pray for you.. you can also pray directly to God.. fine! It's catholic tradition to pray to saints.. esp their favorite saints.. eg Mother Mary the greatest saints of all saints.. ask her to help .. etc.. no problem.. My favorite saints are Mother Mary, St. Padre Pio, St. Faustina
Mother Mary as the match maker.. why not.. if you ask her to help you find a good partner in life.. by all means go for it.. btw, any miracle or any prayer answered comes from God and not the saints.. note the diff.. they are just there to pray for you..
As for the joke.. dun take it seriously, the priest was just joking.. nothing, vulgar.. have a humorous life too.. some priests are greatest jokers.. their jokes can really make you laugh all nite.. !!hahaha..
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Originally posted by Catholicuser:
As for praying to saint (intercessory prayer) it's ok.. you are asking him to pray for you.. you can also pray directly to God.. fine! It's catholic tradition to pray to saints.. esp their favorite saints.. eg Mother Mary the greatest saints of all saints.. ask her to help .. etc.. no problem.. My favorite saints are Mother Mary, St. Padre Pio, St. Faustina
liddat won't be making mockery of God meh?like you know God very fierce, so must use intermediary to bribe or add sweet words for you.
at the very least, you are depriving the saints of their rest time in paradise.
you know lah, God is infinite. even in paradise, saints are still different from God. God is actively sustaining all creation (biblical concept), you tell saints to do it sure peng one.
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Originally posted by Mrlimkopi:
Should I raise my kids up telling them bible - no need to follow but we are good christians? Jesus teach ok, but don't see the need to follow?? Do you know what and why Hail Mary? If not, find our first before say anything......
this one I remember forever man!Hail Mary is that opening prayer in the book Blackhawk Down. ^^
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praying to saints a mockery .. no not at all.. like i said, you can pray to God directly.. or pray to the saints.. is asking the saints to pray for yr intentions.. As for yr prayers answer, it is God and NOT the saints who answer yr prayers ..
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Originally posted by Catholicuser:
dumb dumb,
I'm sorry that yr aunt did not tell you the good news of Jesus much earlier. Maybe, she did not want to offend you.. as you were buddhists at that time?? You see, religion to the catholics is much on personal basis. Most Catholics, do not want to open up their religion to others.. me included. Reasons, dun want to offend others, not sure what to say.. etc.. sakli say wrong dunno how to answer malu. sia.. Probably she was like that..
I'm sure Protestants face the same problem(s) too mah.
But ultimately is the mentality lah. The Catholic stand on salvation is wishy washy at best. I think there is a stand, but they are worded to cover all possible scenarios. Like say other religions also possible to have salvation, but also say salvation is in the Catholic Church. Confusing leh.
Betcha many Catholics are confused too. So no exigency to spread the gospel like the Protestants. For Protestants, no two ways. Only gospel can save. So must spread gospel quickly!
If you know gonna die liao, then mai tu liao. won't procrastinate and think, still got chance lah. no chance lah, quickly spread gospel liao.
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Originally posted by Catholicuser:
praying to saints a mockery .. no not at all.. like i said, you can pray to God directly.. or pray to the saints.. is asking the saints to pray for yr intentions.. As for yr prayers answer, it is God and NOT the saints who answer yr prayers ..
then you are saying saints can talk to God in a politically correct manner issit? lol
like you want to afford a car, so you pray for it. but you can't say you want a car to God, 'cos that will be very greedy.
if you ask saints to do it, they will say, our poor guy down there everyday take MRT, very packed and inconvenient, also no place to sit, can only stand. poor guy. so my Lord, maybe we should do something for him.
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Dumb dumb,
as for the girl died if without converting.. we CANNOT say that just because IF she was not converted PRIOR to her death.. she was unsaved, that is utteringly nonsense.!! Our God Is God of Love .. and we leave that judgement i.e the unsaved to the mercy of God..
As for catholics who did not live a christian life.. .. just dun try to follow them.. neither do you condemn them just pray for them.. show them good examples.. As in every religion, there are black sheep..
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Originally posted by Icemoon:
To quote the WCF,
I am not even sure how many churches teaches the Westminster Confession of Faith. I goes back to what I'd said, you have all the time and resource in the world for such researches.... yet you are not even a Christian.
The poor and illterate don't have the resource or the intellect to repeat your feat yet they are Christians..... so who's saved and who's not.