Originally posted by Chin Eng:I really have no interest to help anyone. We all have our own stand on various issues. I will never say that I am totally right. I will attempt to understand your stand, as long as you don't insist that you are absolute correct.
I don't think he should listen to me, neither do I think that he is listening to me. Perhaps what I write echoes his thoughts.
that being the case, according to you..... no salvation is assured. that will make the entire Christian faith a farce, isn't it.
actually, I'm not sure you know either.
Brother, I never insist that I am right.......from the begining.....I am also saying that perhaps, we can ponder about it.
If there is any point that dumbdumb brought up that he can defend reasonably, it will set my minding thinking and seraching too.......but not with go church no go church and all the personal issue such as dead friend and uncles etc...
Just like how I was once swayed by osas....I did ponder for a while but did not accept. That's all. It's just for discussion but he turned it to a very personal attack and hatred for Catholics... instead of discussion of what's on the table.
I don't think salvation is not assured and if any christians need to fear. What I think the real problem is - many christains are not taught what I mentioned - perhaps, it sounded like, wah....still must work for it meh....how much is enough? etc...
But it's simply about believing in Jesus and following Him.....just need to show love sincerely.....how much is enought etc...is for God to decide. You do your best and put your trust and faith in God - He knows if you tried your best and there is no need to keep track like how many I convert and spoke to etc..... He said, if you have done to the least of one of your brothers and sisters, you have done it to me.
The only one who need to fear are those who HATE others instead of love.....they may end up in the group of goats. More so if they are christains because they should know what God wants from them (more than non-believers) yet they did not obey God.
Like what dumbdumb says, we just relax.....I read somewhere, someone said chrsitianity is a way of life, I agree - it's just living a life full of love (at least try our best).
Originally posted by Mrlimkopi:Brother, I never insist that I am right.......from the begining.....I am also saying that perhaps, we can ponder about it.
actually, as soon as someone come and make a statement like: "the scripture is very clear" - you have used that a few times - it is tantamount as saying that this person knows more than the person he's replying to.... yup, the phrase "I am right" was never used, but the attitude that "I am right" is already there.
another example: the last line in your reply to dumb2 on 15 May 5.05 pm
Originally posted by Mrlimkopi:I am a Christian and I listen to Jesus.....
this is tantamount to saying that you listen to Jesus and dumb2 doesn't... and perhaps that's why dumb2 is antagonised by you.
Originally posted by Icemoon:I'm sure Protestants face the same problem(s) too mah.
But ultimately is the mentality lah. The Catholic stand on salvation is wishy washy at best. I think there is a stand, but they are worded to cover all possible scenarios. Like say other religions also possible to have salvation, but also say salvation is in the Catholic Church. Confusing leh.
Betcha many Catholics are confused too. So no exigency to spread the gospel like the Protestants. For Protestants, no two ways. Only gospel can save. So must spread gospel quickly!
If you know gonna die liao, then mai tu liao. won't procrastinate and think, still got chance lah. no chance lah, quickly spread gospel liao.
Icemoon, Catholic stand on salvation is not wishy washy. We beleived salvation is by faith and deeds. It is very clear as I have explained to dumbdumb in the last judgement.
Catholics believed that God separate people into 2 groups based on if they have showed love to their neighbour - if they do, that means they also showed love to God. How else to show love to God? Talk and talk, praise and prasie, sing and sing yet do nothing ?
Imagine, we sing praise to God everyday telling non-believers how great is our God, our loving is He, how forgiving is He.....and then tell them but you will go to hell no matter how good and upright a person you are, no matter how much you love and help the community, you GO TO HELL! Only christians go heaven even if we sin like nobody's business.....because we are christians.....naynay bobo!! Is it? Does God looks like what we said He is?
We believed that as Christians, it an honour as God has chosen us (Jesus said no one can go to God but thru Him and no one can go to Him unless God send him or something like that) and for a reason. To spread the good news to the rest of the world by living a life in obedience to God - keeping the 2 most important commandment that Jesus taught us. So that people can see proof of God - in christians!
God is using christians as a "tool"....and if we don't function, we are like tasteless salt, the darnel or even the the useless ones that was collected from the fisherman's haul... IE useless christians that God will throw into the furnace....
And what about those who are less fortunate and never had a chance to hear the good news - like our very old ancestors who never even met anyone from the other end of their country? Are they all in hell? Why do I want to believe and love a God that send all my family and friends to hell?
So can they be saved just by deeds? If one mati liao, as christians, we believe in only ONE GOD. No matter what faith you embrace, you go and see GOD. Meet God liao still don't want to acknowledge and believe ah? If you believe in God and always do good deeds (before mati), why send you to hell leh?
If you belive at that point but did not do good deeds (use because you don't know mah....as excuse), can you beg God to show you some mercy? We Catholics are praying for ou down here....support you bro! Maybe God will show mercy but that's His call. We only help to pray for mercy for you......even if we don't know you, even if you hate Catholics....
On the other hand, people spread good news - chiong ah.....but what non-believers hear are all bad news - go to hell etc.... Some kenna "conned" and go to church (but never love God type....) but most have a wrong impression of the faith and hate us. These people are driven away from Christ by such christians - are they (such christians) for Christ or Anti-Christ?
They don't believe in love and cannot bother to follow Jesus even when they call themselves christians. They think they are saved liao because they say they have faith. No need deeds. No need to scrafice for God,, relax liao and do what they like because sins (past, present and future) fogiven by God liao. When they mati and face God, how to answer when God ask them - you got show love or not? You cannot even love your fellow christians (CATHOLIC) ? You HATE them because you think they deserve it?
How to ask God for mercy (cannot use don't know excuse liao.....because you know byt did not follow).....or..or...or....!!
You think God will send these people to heaven?
Anyway, who goes where is not our judgement but exclusively to God. We believe and we just have faith and trust in God. Follow His teachings as much as we can and leave the rest to God - because we have faith, we must live it (deeds).
Now if that is the case, can we be proud that our God is LOVING, FORGIVING, CARING and GREAT or whatever those christians spreading the good news is saying...? Perhaps...right?
Originally posted by Chin Eng:
actually, as soon as someone come and make a statement like: "the scripture is very clear" - you have used that a few times - it is tantamount as saying that this person knows more than the person he's replying to.... yup, the phrase "I am right" was never used, but the attitude that "I am right" is already there.another example: the last line in your reply to dumb2 on 15 May 5.05 pm
this is tantamount to saying that you listen to Jesus and dumb2 doesn't... and perhaps that's why dumb2 is antagonised by you.
My apologise if that gave you a wrong impression, but since I am convinced, I say it is clear....If I think I am always right, I will not accept yr version and ask you to explain on the goats........can I blame dumbdumb for this huh? Ha..ha..
Dumddumb tried to make a mockery out of everything Catholic without knowing facts.
Such as, he says Catholic only know how to pray...but do nothing (while he is playing super hero out there saving the world)....why do we pray? It seems he said he dosen't (but later said he pray whole day) and I just pointed out that Jesus asked us to pray, so if you say you don't see the need, are you trying to say you do not see need to follow Jesus?
He gave a few examples which seems to say no need tyo follow Jesus...when I asked if that is the case, he always did not answer but change subject.
I said we follow what Jesus taught and that's what we are taught by our church to do.
I don't think I antagonised him but he seems to be shooting his own feet.
Originally posted by Mrlimkopi:My apologise if that gave you a wrong impression, but since I am convinced, I say it is clear....If I think I am always right, I will not accept yr version and ask you to explain on the goats........can I blame dumbdumb for this huh? Ha..ha..
I believe what I believe to be true, but I do not believe what I believe is the absolute truth.
Neither am I interested to convince you that my truth is truer that your truth.
.... in all seriousness, nothing is absolutely and totally clear.
Originally posted by Chin Eng:I believe what I believe to be true, but I do not believe what I believe is the absolute truth.
Neither am I interested to convince you that my truth is truer that your truth.
.... in all seriousness, nothing is absolutely and totally clear.
Totally agreed with you.....
Originally posted by Chin Eng:I am not even sure how many churches teaches the Westminster Confession of Faith. I goes back to what I'd said, you have all the time and resource in the world for such researches.... yet you are not even a Christian.
The poor and illterate don't have the resource or the intellect to repeat your feat yet they are Christians..... so who's saved and who's not.
Maybe all are saved? ^^
Anyway I quote the WCF in response to your "challenge". This can be done by anyone here, because they have internet connection. Don't bring in Fujian or Batam farmers again, they are not in the context.
If you look at the poor and illiterate in the past, it is scary. You are right, they don't have the resource or intellect to repeat my feat; neither can they repeat feats like quoting parables and understanding them correctly. So how? Pray to saints. Indulge in indulgences. Work for salvation. Are they saved?
Can of worm, unker, can of worm.
Originally posted by Mrlimkopi:I don't think salvation is not assured and if any christians need to fear. What I think the real problem is - many christains are not taught what I mentioned - perhaps, it sounded like, wah....still must work for it meh....how much is enough? etc...
But it's simply about believing in Jesus and following Him.....just need to show love sincerely.....how much is enought etc...is for God to decide. You do your best and put your trust and faith in God - He knows if you tried your best and there is no need to keep track like how many I convert and spoke to etc..... He said, if you have done to the least of one of your brothers and sisters, you have done it to me.
How come your argument sounds so Jewish? I mean, this is what they say too - try your best. Haha.
But this does not square with the Christian notion of judgement. If God demands perfection and nobody can meet that standard except Christ, then it is no longer ok to try your best. "The best is not good enough" (lol .. my boss told me that last time).
Originally posted by despondent:to chi bet:
i sympathise wif ur situation n am sadden tat such churches like urs exist. however, u mentioned tat u have chosen to be stubborn abt 2cor6:14..i am not going to say tat u must die die follow but juz sth u may like to tink abt…
as christians, we r suppose to yield to wad the bible has tot us n not decide using our own pt of view whether we wanna follow or not…when jesus when up to the mountain juz b4 he was crucified to pray, wad did he pray? he told God tat his heart was heavy n tat if it was possible, let tis cup pass him by. he was toking abt his cricifixion. yet jesus continued n said, but its not my will but urs, my Father…
i understand the emotional attachment tat comes wif a r/s n tat its emotionally painful to break up wif someone u love. but when christians preach against being unequally yoked, we r looking into the future…after u r married to her, how r u going to bring up ur children? will she allow u to bring them to church every wk? as a christian, ur duty is to bring up ur children in the ways of the Lord…
tink abt wad i have said…i noe some ppl will flame me for tis but i see a need to let u noe tat as christians, we shld not practise selective obedience(obey onli wadever doesnt hurt us)...God bless…
your comment about being unequally yoke is exactly the same reason the the church gave me, about how i am going to raise my kids if my wife is a non christian but it is always my hope that my gf would convert to be a christian.
are christians suppose to abandon those who are not responsive to their conversion efforts? my girlfirend is not denying me from going to church nor is she insisting that i should pray to idols.
My mum and dad (devouted taoist/buddhist) insists that i pray to idols. Do i abandon them also? the church advised i should.
as for my kids, i know that children born to christians are not automatically christians. they need to make the decision to accept CHRIST into their lives on their own. I see no harm in me trying to get my kids to be good christians while my wife try to get them to be good buddhist/taoist as at the end of the day the decision is theirs to make, not my wife's or mine.
children born to a couple with the same beliefs tends to be brainwash by their parents beliefs as they do not have any exposure to other beliefs. they also tend to be more narrow minded and fanatical. I do not wish this on my kids as i had experienced this first hand. can you really say someone had choose to accept CHRIST if they had been brainwashed into doing it?
Again, this could be excuses i give to myself to continue on with my current BGR but i sincerely hope that my gf would convert as i cannot imagine how life would be without her. Would heaven really be heaven if you cannot be with the ones you love? Would GOD/CHRIST ask me to abandon the ones I love to hell?
I know GOD/CHRIST ask us to love all unconditionally but I am not at that level yet. how can I love strangers and save them from hell when whose who are closest to me and those I love/love me most are still in danger of going to hell?
Originally posted by Icemoon:
How come your argument sounds so Jewish? I mean, this is what they say too - try your best. Haha.But this does not square with the Christian notion of judgement. If God demands perfection and nobody can meet that standard except Christ, then it is no longer ok to try your best. "The best is not good enough" (lol .. my boss told me that last time).
Jesus is a Jew what? But what is sound so Jewish....people too complicated lah...then later says pagan.....etc....
If God demand perfection, all go hell liao....where got perfect man one? If that means we don't try, then give up lor....When we say God is loving, forgiving etc....do we really believe in it?
There other sacraments that comes into play...but so pagan why talk about it? You know all liao so don't kay kay here leh...
What do you mean by Christians's judgment ? I thought we should not be judgemental?
Wait I kenna attack again.......you help me or not?
Originally posted by ChiBet:
Would heaven really be heaven if you cannot be with the ones you love? Would GOD/CHRIST ask me to abandon the ones I love to hell?
I know GOD/CHRIST ask us to love all unconditionally but I am not at that level yet. how can I love strangers and save them from hell when whose who are closest to me and those I love/love me most are still in danger of going to hell?
Hi ChiBet,
Please repeat after me, In Judaism there is no such place called land of eternal BBQ. Hashem is a GOD of love who loves his creations unconditionally.
Don,t believe in teachings that threaten decent people with the prospect of a one way ticket to the land of eternal BBQ. Just remember that Hashem loves you, your family and all his creations. Nothing happens in heaven or on earth without Hashem approval. Hashem is the first and the last, Hashem is the King of the Universe. Believe in Hashem and only Hashem and the peace of Hashem will be with you.
Originally posted by ChiBet:
your comment about being unequally yoke is exactly the same reason the the church gave me, about how i am going to raise my kids if my wife is a non christian but it is always my hope that my gf would convert to be a christian.are christians suppose to abandon those who are not responsive to their conversion efforts? my girlfirend is not denying me from going to church nor is she insisting that i should pray to idols.
My mum and dad (devouted taoist/buddhist) insists that i pray to idols. Do i abandon them also? the church advised i should.
I think you re-consider lah... Why would a good religion ask you to divide and break up your family? Abandon your parents? I thought one of the 10 commandments says honour your father and monther....
Originally posted by ChiBet:as for my kids, i know that children born to christians are not automatically christians. they need to make the decision to accept CHRIST into their lives on their own. I see no harm in me trying to get my kids to be good christians while my wife try to get them to be good buddhist/taoist as at the end of the day the decision is theirs to make, not my wife's or mine.children born to a couple with the same beliefs tends to be brainwash by their parents beliefs as they do not have any exposure to other beliefs. they also tend to be more narrow minded and fanatical. I do not wish this on my kids as i had experienced this first hand. can you really say someone had choose to accept CHRIST if they had been brainwashed into doing it?
If you try to get them to be christians and your wife to get them to be buddhist/taoist, you child will be confused and lost........
Originally posted by Creation1656:
Hi ChiBet,
Please repeat after me,
wah leow .. I thought only SAF says that ..
Repeat after me, I, NRIC rank and name ..
Originally posted by Mrlimkopi:Jesus is a Jew what? But what is sound so Jewish....people too complicated lah...then later says pagan.....etc....
If God demand perfection, all go hell liao....where got perfect man one? If that means we don't try, then give up lor....When we say God is loving, forgiving etc....do we really believe in it?
There other sacraments that comes into play...but so pagan why talk about it? You know all liao so don't kay kay here leh...
What do you mean by Christians's judgment ? I thought we should not be judgemental?
Wait I kenna attack again.......you help me or not?
I mean your argument sounds so Jewish. Are you sure you talking Catholic? Haha.
The Christian argument is, precisely, God demands perfection so all will go to hell. That's why Christ is here, He imputes His righteousness to you, so you are justified before the Father.
God is loving , forgiving, and this is shown by sending Jesus to die for your sins, NOT giving you leeway to find alternate ways of salvation.
Christian's notion of judgement of God, like what I wrote above.
You kenna attack, I support you from the sideline.
Originally posted by Icemoon:
Maybe all are saved? ^^Anyway I quote the WCF in response to your "challenge". This can be done by anyone here, because they have internet connection. Don't bring in Fujian or Batam farmers again, they are not in the context.
If you look at the poor and illiterate in the past, it is scary. You are right, they don't have the resource or intellect to repeat my feat; neither can they repeat feats like quoting parables and understanding them correctly. So how? Pray to saints. Indulge in indulgences. Work for salvation. Are they saved?
Can of worm, unker, can of worm.
religious "discussion" is always a can of worms....
why not the farmers...? if we are discussion "salvation" and "works" only in the context of internet users.... then might as well forget it.... nothing to discuss because such topics pertains to EVERY single believer.
on the poor and illiterate.... which is why I think the simple concept of once saved always save is a more practical solution.... whether these people get rewards after their salvation is another matter altogether.
I feel kinda bad starting a thread that seems to escalate into arguments
Originally posted by Chin Eng:religious "discussion" is always a can of worms....
why not the farmers...? if we are discussion "salvation" and "works" only in the context of internet users.... then might as well forget it.... nothing to discuss because such topics pertains to EVERY single believer.
on the poor and illiterate.... which is why I think the simple concept of once saved always save is a more practical solution.... whether these people get rewards after their salvation is another matter altogether.
From what I understand, salvation is very much a personal matter between a person and God. So whether this particular guy is wolf in sheep clothing, we can't really know. Furthermore the Bible does talk about wheat and tares, and they will be separated not now but during Judgement.
My original intention (and the context) was to help dumbdumb put his ideas into a framework. Hence all the labels and theology. 'cos dumbdumb appeared confused, according to Mr Drink Coffee.
Dunno why you so worked up siah, unker.
Originally posted by ChiBet:I feel kinda bad starting a thread that seems to escalate into arguments
Don't worry.
They are just practising their typing.
Did you not read from the bible that only 100,000+ people will be allowed to go into heaven during the end times in the christian context?
Originally posted by Icemoon:From what I understand, salvation is very much a personal matter between a person and God. So whether this particular guy is wolf in sheep clothing, we can't really know. Furthermore the Bible does talk about wheat and tares, and they will be separated not now but during Judgement.
Exactly, salvation is a personal matter. It is between an individual and God.
Originally posted by Icemoon:My original intention (and the context) was to help dumbdumb put his ideas into a framework. Hence all the labels and theology. 'cos dumbdumb appeared confused, according to Mr Drink Coffee.
Dunno why you so worked up siah, unker.
If your original intention (and whatever context you are dreaming in) is to help dumb2 then you didn't really do a good job. All the labels and the high level theology is really quite pointless.
For that matter, you had tried to help brey once, and I think there were others too..... why bother? ;) (the smiley buttons don't always work....)
Originally posted by ChiBet:I feel kinda bad starting a thread that seems to escalate into arguments
No lah, no argument....It's certain people's personal agenda to make a mockery of everything Catholic and his personal hatred for Catholics....nothing else. Don't feel bad.
Originally posted by Icemoon:I mean your argument sounds so Jewish. Are you sure you talking Catholic? Haha.
The Christian argument is, precisely, God demands perfection so all will go to hell. That's why Christ is here, He imputes His righteousness to you, so you are justified before the Father.
God is loving , forgiving, and this is shown by sending Jesus to die for your sins, NOT giving you leeway to find alternate ways of salvation.
Christian's notion of judgement of God, like what I wrote above.
You kenna attack, I support you from the sideline.
Ya lah....confirm Catholic or why is dumbdumb is angry with me??