City Harvest Church?
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Originally posted by Creation1656:
To refresh your memory, this is what i said in my post:
Hi dumbdumb, u said that the bible says that with each creation, God saw that it was good. Let us examine the scriptures closely if your statement is correct. In bible study 101, we must not only take note of what that is mentioned but also what that is not mentioned. OK.
I said that once, and I also said that God created everything to be good, 3 times. You certainly love to pick and choose whichever helps support your train of thought, don't you?
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Originally posted by dumbdumb:
besides, i think you're just here sprouting terms just to sound cool. lol, with your "G_d" and your "oral" torah.
Why don't you bring it up a notch, and don't refer God as "G_d", and stick to "Elohim" instead? Sounds alot cooler.
Is there a problem? i have no problem if u want to call your gods in any manner u like.
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Originally posted by dumbdumb:
but the point is, God did not create evil, so there was nothing wrong in changing the word "evil" to "calamity" in verse Isaiah 45:7 which would be more accurate in this time and age.
of course, evil, at that time, would have been understood as "calamity".
Of course, u can always change/modify the offending/problem verse to reflect your theology. Problem solved.
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Originally posted by dumbdumb:
I said that once, and I also said that God created everything to be good, 3 times. You certainly love to pick and choose whichever helps support your train of thought, don't you?
My train of thought? I tell u my train of thought. My train of thought is moving towards this station:
I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things. Isaiah 45:7 KJV
However, the train have pick up passengers en route, some good and some bad.
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Originally posted by Creation1656:
My train of thought? I tell u my train of thought. My train of thought is moving towards this station:
I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things. Isaiah 45:7 KJV
However, the train have pick up passengers en route, some good and some bad.
since you seem to like adhering to the jewish traditions, do you know what's the hebrew word for "evil" in this verse?
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Originally posted by dumbdumd:
do you know what's the hebrew word for "evil" in this verse?
Well, u can always try to read the hebrew word for "evil" in this verse.
ט. וַיַּצְמַח יְ־הֹוָ־ה ×�ֱ־לֹהִי×� מִן ×”Ö¸×�ֲדָמָה כָּל ×¢Öµ×¥ × Ö¶×—Ö°×žÖ¸×“ לְמַרְ×�ֶה וְטוֹב לְמַ×�ֲכָל וְעֵץ ×”Ö·×—Ö·×™Ö¼Ö´×™×� בְּתוֹךְ הַגָּן וְעֵץ
הַדַּעַת טוֹב וָרָע:
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lol, can you pronounce evil in hebrew?
anyone can copy and paste from the hebrew bible. genesis chapter 2
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ts is babelfish?
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u mean con money cult? make people into slaves to give them their pay
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Originally posted by dumbdumb:
lol, can you pronounce evil in hebrew?
anyone can copy and paste from the hebrew bible. genesis chapter 2
Since u are proficient in Hebrew, why dun u read your bible directly form the hebrew text. Why depend on the NIV translation?.
As for me i am not proficient in hebrew, so i have to depend on the wisdom of the Jewish Sages.
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Originally posted by dumbdumb:
from what the bible says, God didn't create disease, there was no disease, AIDS, cancer, and death. God created everything good.
All these bad stuff came about, when sin was introduced into the world.
as for evil and suffering.. why does God allow it,
Various answers have been given but permanently settling the issue is impossible because so many of our answers raise further questions. Nevertheless, our lack of ability to answer the question perfectly does not mean that we cannot offer solutions. Of course, I do not assume to be able to answer these questions definitively, but I can offer some solutions.
First of all, it is possible that God has reasons for allowing evil to exist that we simply cannot understand. In this the Christian can have confidence in God knowing that His ways are above our ways (Isaiah 55:8-9). As the Bible says, the just shall live by faith (Hab. 2:4).
Second, God may be letting evil run its course in order to prove that evil is evil and that suffering, which is the unfortunate product of evil, is further proof that anything contrary to God’s will is bad, harmful, painful, and leads to death.
God gave Adam dominion over the world (Gen. 1:28). When he rebelled against God, he set in motion an entire series of events and changed the very nature of man and creation. Both were affected by sin. Creation was no longer a paradise, but bore thorns and thistles (Gen. 3:17-18; Rom. 8:22). People became sinful (Rom. 5:12; Eph. 2:3), who were haters of God (Rom. 3:19-12), etc. The only conclusion to such a situation is death. Jesus said, "And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect’s sake those days shall be shortened" (Matt. 24:22).
Sin is rebellion against God and His created order. But God has not left us alone in this fallen world. He continued to enter this world, pointing us to Himself, to truth, to morality, purity, and love. He used the evil of the world (liars, perjurers, the envious, etc), to bring His Son to the cross so that we might have the opportunity of eternal life. In this, God has not stepped away from fallen creation, but has stepped into it by becoming Jesus. God works within the fallen world to affect change and He uses fallen people to accomplish His will. In this, He is proving His sovereignty over evil, suffering, and rebellious people, proving that sin and evil are utterly futile, and that He is worthy of honor and glory.
A third possible reason that God is letting evil occur is so that on the day of judgment, the condemned will have no right to say that their sentence is unjust. God is not stopping people from exercising their free will. Think about this: If someone said that God should stop evil and suffering, then should God then stop all evil and suffering? If God only stopped some of it, then we would still be asking the same question of why it exists. So, if we want God to stop evil and suffering, then He must stop all of it. We have no problem with this when it means stopping a catastrophe, or a murder, or a rape. But what about when someone thinks of something evil? Evil is evil whether it is acted out or not. Hatred and bigotry in someone’s heart is wrong. If it is wrong, and if God is to stop all evil, then He must stop that person from thinking his own thoughts. To do that, God must remove his freedom of thought. Furthermore, which person on the earth has not thought something evil? God would be required, then, to stop all people from exercising their free will. This is something God has chosen not to do. Therefore, we could say that one of the reasons that God permits evil and suffering is because of man’s free will.
Fourth, it is quite possible that God uses the suffering to do good. In other words, He produces patience through tribulation (Rom. 5:3). Or He may desire to save someone through it. Take for example, the account of Joseph who was sold into slavery by His brothers. What they did was wrong and Joseph suffered greatly for it. But, later, God raised up Joseph in Egypt to make provisions for the people of that land during the coming drought of seven years. But not only was Egypt saved, but also so was his family and brothers who originally sold him into slavery. Joseph finally says to them, "You meant it for evil, but God meant it for good" (Gen. 50:15-21). Of course, the greatest example of God using evil for good is the death of Christ. Evil people brought him to the cross, but God used that cross as the means to save the world.
But then we must ask, if this is true, are we working against God by working against evil and suffering? No, we are not. God says he does not want us to sin and suffer. But it is simply true that God can use evil despite of its apparent despicable nature.
God is in the world using the world and its failures for His glory and the benefit of those who listen to Him.
But then, what about those who seem to innocently suffer with no benefit resulting? What about the woman who is raped, or the innocent by stander who is killed by a stray bullet. In both cases, the victims and families suffer nothing but pain and loss. What good can this possibly be?
I think that the answer is two-fold. One, ultimately, no one is innocent. All have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God (Rom. 3:23) and are by nature children of wrath (Eph. 2:3). There is none innocent. Though this is biblically accurate, it does not satisfy the question emotionally. Why do little babies suffer for things they have not done? I must acknowledge that I do not know. Ultimately, we must trust God who knows the beginning from the end and sees the grand picture. He will have the final word and He will be vindicated.
Conclusion
Suffering is the result of human sin. The world is not the way that God created it and because of that, all are vulnerable to the affects of sin in the world. Why does one person suffer and another does not? Why do catastrophes happen to some and no others? It is because sin is in the world. But there will come a day when the Lord will return and cleanse this world of all sin and all suffering.
This sermon to me is like a piece of candy. But hidden deep inside this candy is a seed of poison. Well, this is only my personal opinion, everybody is welcome to agree or disagree with my point of view/opinion.
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Originally posted by Creation1656:
Since u are proficient in Hebrew, why dun u read your bible directly form the hebrew text. Why depend on the NIV translation?.
As for me i am not proficient in hebrew, so i have to depend on the wisdom of the Jewish Sages.
uh oh, sounds like that train of thought is derailing... tsk
let me tell you why the word evil in that verse don't just mean moral evil, as you suggest.
because you're such a poseur, let me tell you:
it's "רשע", pronounced as "rah". it occurred in the bible how many
times, do you know? no you don't because you're such a poseur, let me tell you:
it occurred 663 times in the KJV.
do you know it's meaning was translated differently in each part
of the KJV bible (since you used KJV as reference), to emphasis different things?
no you don't, because you're such a poseur, so let me tell you:
it was translated 431 times as "evil", and the other 232 times, it
was translated to mean other stuff, like "trouble", "calamity",
"mischief", "adversity", "sorrow", "harm", "disaster" etc etc.
so you can see, that the word "rah", isn't just translated as
"moral evil".
let me show you the verse in context:
Isaiah 45:5-7 (King James Version)
5I am the LORD, and there is none else, there is no God beside me: I girded thee, though thou hast not known me:
6That they may know from the rising of the sun, and from the west, that there is none beside me. I am the LORD, and there is none else.
7I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.
do you see the context here? i bet you don't, so let me further explain. In this 3 verses, the bible contextually was talking about natural phenomena and natural disasters, where only God is able to create light and darkness, to create peace, or disaster.
Why can i safely say that the hebrew word for evil, "rah" can be translated here as "calamity" or "disaster" rather than "moral evil"?
because this verse is consistant with other verses in scripture.
Exodus 4:11 (New International Version)
11 The LORD said to him, "Who gave man his mouth? Who makes him deaf or mute? Who gives him sight or makes him blind? Is it not I, the LORD ?
Amos 3:6 (New International Version)
6 When a trumpet sounds in a city,
do not the people tremble?
When disaster comes to a city,
has not the LORD caused it?as you can see from these 2 verses, God can create natural disasters and involving Himself in problems and disasters on earth.
The verse in exodus talks about human's frail weaknesses and limitations
and the verse in amos is talking about calamity and distress. I underlined the word "disaster", because in KJV, it's translated as "evil" (not moral evil, because when a trumpet sound in a city, it's usually because of an invasion, or warning to take cover) - just like the verse in isaiah.
so you can see, the word "evil" do not just mean moral evil, it can be other meanings too.
so since you're just an amateurish jewish wannabe, don't try to act act la. "G_d" here, "G_d" there.. zzz
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Originally posted by Creation1656:
This sermon to me is like a piece of candy. But hidden deep inside this candy is a seed of poison. Well, this is only my personal opinion, everybody is welcome to agree or disagree with my point of view/opinion.
rofl, i question your logic:
if you don't really know what to say, then just keep quiet la. what kind of ambigous reply is this, "oh, this is like a a candy with a seed of poison inside.."
zzz
even your "jewish sages" say that God cannot cause moral evil. you are just contradicting yourself, you wannabe
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oh, one more thing. about bible study 101 - it's not about "paying attention to what that is written, but also what that is not written"
sounds more like a cheesy philosophical line comparable to "empty your cup, before you can put anything into it" - from the forbidden kingdom movie
rather, bible study 101 is about understanding the context, which means, you don't just take one verse on its own to determine what it's trying to say, just like you did,
but you look at the bigger picture, compare verses to see consistancy, understanding the language culture of that time it was written etc.
understand or not, my silly wannabe friend?
"oral torah", "jewish sages"? pui! just because you can sprout out a few jewish terms here and there, you think you can presume yourself knowledgable enough to talk about God?
what a poseur.
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Originally posted by dumbdumb!:
oh, one more thing. about bible study 101 - it's not about "paying attention to what that is written, but also what that is not written"
sounds more like a cheesy philosophical line comparable to "empty your cup, before you can put anything into it" - from the forbidden kingdom movie
rather, bible study 101 is about understanding the context, which means, you don't just take one verse on its own to determine what it's trying to say, just like you did,
but you look at the bigger picture, compare verses to see consistancy, understanding the language culture of that time it was written etc.
understand or not, my silly wannabe friend?
"oral torah", "jewish sages"? pui! just because you can sprout out a few jewish terms here and there, don't make you one.
what a poseur.
Bro... I realised your comments and replies has gone from reasoning to insulting...
Please conduct yourself in a manner worthy of the Gospel of Christ (Philippians 1:27)
It is true that there are many points of views in the world... Telling the truth in love is what we need to do, not otherwise... There is a small fine line between speaking the truth in Love and self-righteous. =)
"But in your hearts set apart Christ as Lord. Always be prepared to give an answer to everyone who asks you to give the reason for the hope that you have. But do this with gentleness and respect, keeping a clear conscience, so that those who speak maliciously against your good behavior in Chirst may be ashamed of their slander." (1 Peter 3:15-16)
Just something that I noticed... Let us take discussions in a non-personal level to maintain the good name of God's people... =)
With Love in Christ,
Kager -
Originally posted by kager82:
Bro... I realised your comments and replies has gone from reasoning to insulting...
Please conduct yourself in a manner worthy of the Gospel of Christ (Philippians 1:27)
It is true that there are many points of views in the world... Telling the truth in love is what we need to do, not otherwise... There is a small fine line between speaking the truth in Love and self-righteous. =)
"But in your hearts set apart Christ as Lord. Always be prepared to give an answer to everyone who asks you to give the reason for the hope that you have. But do this with gentleness and respect, keeping a clear conscience, so that those who speak maliciously against your good behavior in Chirst may be ashamed of their slander." (1 Peter 3:15-16)
Just something that I noticed... Let us take discussions in a non-personal level to maintain the good name of God's people... =)
With Love in Christ,
Kagerit's all good when you're not the one reasoning and nicely popping up after the reasoning was done with.
besides, if he was engaging in a serious discussion, i'd be happy to share properly. if all he wants to do is nitpick, pick and choose my quotes to tear apart, ignoring logic, and best of all, posing as a learned jew, trying to be condecending then i'm going to call him out.
woah~ he can copy and paste from hebrew bible leh~ woah~~~!!! *clap clap clap*
best! can copy paste, but cannot interpret the words. *CLAP CLAP CLAP!*
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Originally posted by dumbdumb!:
it's all good when you're not the one reasoning and nicely popping up after the reasoning was done with.
besides, if he was engaging in a serious discussion, i'd be happy to share properly. if all he wants to do is nitpick, pick and choose my quotes to tear apart, ignoring logic, and best of all, posing as a learned jew, trying to be condecending then i'm going to call him out.
woah~ he can copy and paste from hebrew bible leh~ woah~~~!!! *clap clap clap*
best! can copy paste, but cannot interpret the words. *CLAP CLAP CLAP!*
Bro, people can taunt us all they want... What difference do we make if we respond in a worldly manner?
Christ Jesus set us apart to do His work... That my point...
No point getting sore at people who do not understand... We're just trying to make our point, Amen and move on...
If others are persistent in their theory, I'm sure readers in the forum knows how to take sides... =)
No offence Creation1656, but I guess this discussion is leading no where other than towards bitterness...
Why not we either change topic or meet up to talk about it?
It should be a very good discussion and opportunity to learn from one another with an open heart... =)
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now is not stating facts
now is flaming already
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why make things so complicated?
i go there for god, who care wheather if they are a cult or not
i love it there. and so does others member
if this church don't suit you just leave.
can you ppl just grow up?
there is no need to insult.
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Originally posted by kager82:
Bro, people can taunt us all they want... What difference do we make if we respond in a worldly manner?
Christ Jesus set us apart to do His work... That my point...
No point getting sore at people who do not understand... We're just trying to make our point, Amen and move on...
If others are persistent in their theory, I'm sure readers in the forum knows how to take sides... =)
No offence Creation1656, but I guess this discussion is leading no where other than towards bitterness...
Why not we either change topic or meet up to talk about it?
It should be a very good discussion and opportunity to learn from one another with an open heart... =)
pfft. just prod him abit, and his theories and condecending jewish (fake) mannerism start leaking like a boat.
but you're right. i've lost my temper already.
For there are many rebellious people, mere talkers and deceivers, especially those of the circumcision group.11They must be silenced, because they are ruining whole households by teaching things they ought not to teach—and that for the sake of dishonest gain. 12Even one of their own prophets has said, "Cretans are always liars, evil brutes, lazy gluttons." 13This testimony is true. Therefore, rebuke them sharply, so that they will be sound in the faith 14and will pay no attention to Jewish myths or to the commands of those who reject the truth.
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Originally posted by kager82:
No offence Creation1656, but I guess this discussion is leading no where other than towards bitterness...
Why not we either change topic or meet up to talk about it?
It should be a very good discussion and opportunity to learn from one another with an open heart... =)
Thanks for your wise counsel kager82. I will now disengage from this thread. It will be great to have u a as friend and we certainly can learn from each other.
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why bother to argue?
these is no common ground
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ppl here very funny one
never go to church and gave money
complain day and night
me used to gave to church for years
but i never even complain despite without
getting anything back in the end
Seriously complain day and night dun get u ppl
to anywhere in life
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city harvest = cash harvest cult.
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reading all these posts makes me laugh!
I will relate to you my personal experience and realizations. Each topic is described in what I thought or felt before and after my 5-6 month stint there as a member of the congregation.Giving ($):
Before -- "no matter how much money I had left in my wallet, i gave as a sign and demonstration of my faith. I gave something dear to me, something I needed badly at times. Sometimes I gave all I had in my wallet at the time, and hoped and prayed that god would bless me with sustenance"
After -- "man, i'm hungry and thirsty. I think i'll keep my $6 and go to subway for that $5.90 sandwich deal after service"
Prayer:
Before -- "my personal prayer to god is mine and mine alone. No matter how I speak to him, he listens. Whether I pray silently, or whisper, or yell, or blabber, he will listen. Every christian has a special, personal way of communicating with the lord"
After -- "i thought speaking in tongues was unique to every individual? I thought that it was supposed to come from within every individual's spirit, unique in his or her personal experience with god? then why does everyone say 'shiggity abba baba'??"
That's all so far that's meaningful. All the rest are minor qualms, like hero woship, reservations about the opposite sex, sexy and skimpy outfits at church, that sorta thing.