Does God Exist??
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Originally posted by googoomuck:
What about carbon dating? Is it accurate? I don't know. No one is able to verify something that's assumed to be 50,000 years old. I trust the BC/AD dating system, which was based on the birth of Jesus.
Why is the fish living fossil unconvincing? It proves that evolution of that fish did not occur. Evolutionists are very afraid of living fossils.
Another evolution theory that the evolutionists themselves debunked is the use of vestigiality organs. Go do your research, OK?
Why pull in religion? Do you believe in creationism or evolution? You tell me.
I've said before. Research by creationist scientists are not confined to creationism only. They are also biologists, chemists or physicists. They become more convinced of the existence of an intelligent designer with each new discovery .
Googoomuck,
Earlier, you asked me how has science invalidate bible and I asked you about carbon dating for this purpose. If you claim you don't know how accurate cardon dating is, I have nothing to say, I cannot influence your belief. If you think carbon dating is accurate, then science can debunk bible, which says earth is about 6000 year old only.
Your account of fish fossil and vestigial organ and their confusion created in the evolutionist community are baseless. These topics are well discussed and supported by evidence. You could be reading these off from a creationist website and may have led to another direction.
Of course I believe in evolution and natural selection.
Let me share with you that term "intelligent designer" is evolved from the word "god" by your creationist community (so that to put in a better position when confronted by evolutionist).
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Originally posted by laffin123:
Googoomuck,
Earlier, you asked me how has science invalidate bible and I asked you about carbon dating for this purpose. If you claim you don't know how accurate cardon dating is, I have nothing to say, I cannot influence your belief. If you think carbon dating is accurate, then science can debunk bible, which says earth is about 6000 year old only.
Your account of fish fossil and vestigial organ and their confusion created in the evolutionist community are baseless. These topics are well discussed and supported by evidence. You could be reading these off from a creationist website and may have led to another direction.
Of course I believe in evolution and natural selection.
Let me share with you that term "intelligent designer" is evolved from the word "god" by your creationist community (so that to put in a better position when confronted by evolutionist).
I did not say that. You believe that the bible says the earth is 6000 years old. That doesn't mean it's true.
You still reading outdated evolution theory? I told you to do a research.
Do vestigial organs provide evidence for evolution? Correction has already been made in their textbooks since 1981!
Evolutionary zoologist S. R. Scadding (University of Guelph) has stated (175f.):
The ‘vestigial organ’ argument uses as a premise the assertion that the organ in question has no function. There is no way however, in which this negative assertion can be arrived at scientifically. That is, one can not prove that something does not exist (in this case a certain function), since of course if it does not exist one cannot observe it, and therefore one can say nothing about it scientifically. The best we can do is to state that despite diligent effort, no function was discovered for a given organ. However it may be that some future investigator will the discover the function. Consequently, the vestigial organ argument has as a premise, either a statement of ignorance (I couldn’t identify the function), or a scientifically invalid claim (it does not have a function). Such an argument, from ignorance, or from negative results, is not valid scientifically, and has no place in observational or experimental science.
Since it is not possible to unambiguously identify useless structures, and since the structure of the argument used is not scientifically valid, I conclude that ‘vestigial organs’ provide no special evidence for the theory of evolution.
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Does God exist? If you ask me, yes.
"How do you know" you ask.
Cos I just believe so.
"Do you have evidence" you ask.
What evidence do you want? Ask God to appear in front of you? Oh sorry I do not have that kind of evidence.
"You people talked abt the nature lah, the birds in the sky lah, etc as evidence of God's creations, thus proving God exists. How true is that?"
Oh, again I believe so but I cannot prove to you that God is real if your evidence is asking me to show you God Himself.
"Then how to believe."
Believe as how I believe. By faith. But if you cannot do that, then fine. The onus is on you to believe, no one is forcing you to believe that God exists.
"I never see God thats why I cannot believe."
Hey, have you actually seen men on the moon. No no, not the videos. I mean were you there to actually see the men stepping on the moon? But most people do believe that these men actually stepped on the moon then? But why, there were only photos, videos, "witnesses" etc... but no actually were there on the moon, seeing them step on the moon...why then so many people believe? Well because they choose to. Same here with God.
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googoomuck posted :“[It is my] loving duty to seek the truth in all things, in so far as God has granted that to human reason.”Adam and Eve got chucked out of Eden for that, and you say god "granted" us...
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Originally posted by Ikankering:googoomuck posted :“[It is my] loving duty to seek the truth in all things, in so far as God has granted that to human reason.”Adam and Eve got chucked out of Eden for that, and you say god "granted" us...
That's what Copernicus had said. You should tell him, shouldn't you?
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Originally posted by googoomuck:
I did not say that. You believe that the bible says the earth is 6000 years old. That doesn't mean it's true.
You still reading outdated evolution theory? I told you to do a research.
Do vestigial organs provide evidence for evolution? Correction has already been made in their textbooks since 1981!
Evolutionary zoologist S. R. Scadding (University of Guelph) has stated (175f.):
The ‘vestigial organ’ argument uses as a premise the assertion that the organ in question has no function. There is no way however, in which this negative assertion can be arrived at scientifically. That is, one can not prove that something does not exist (in this case a certain function), since of course if it does not exist one cannot observe it, and therefore one can say nothing about it scientifically. The best we can do is to state that despite diligent effort, no function was discovered for a given organ. However it may be that some future investigator will the discover the function. Consequently, the vestigial organ argument has as a premise, either a statement of ignorance (I couldn’t identify the function), or a scientifically invalid claim (it does not have a function). Such an argument, from ignorance, or from negative results, is not valid scientifically, and has no place in observational or experimental science.
Since it is not possible to unambiguously identify useless structures, and since the structure of the argument used is not scientifically valid, I conclude that ‘vestigial organs’ provide no special evidence for the theory of evolution.
(1) 6000 years was stated inside. It is not my interest to believe it or to disbelieve it. I am re-stating what is inside the scripture.
"That doesn't mean it's true." I give you a benefit of re-stating your meaning of this statement. I do not want to jump at your confusion point.
(2) Please set aside your arrogance and have a good debate with me here. Your citing of Scadding gives no backing up. You and your community may be literally taking every words of Scadding as total truth and bend it to your advantage. Scadding work was incomplete and do you seriously think we should close the chapter and claim Scadding is the truth. We have all the time to work on this until the sun burns out.
Scadding's thought exercise: "Since it is not possible to unambiguously identify useless structures, and since the structure of the argument used is not scientifically valid, I conclude that ‘vestigial organs’ provide no special evidence for the theory of evolution." is more than a literal work than scientific work. Do you want to base your defense on this word-playing statement ? If Scadding did not know then, he should admit it.
According to the text I read, vestigial organs are the evidents of evolution. We share the same vestigial organ with our ancestry up link and slowly these organ are evolved to function-less organ in us.
I share some facts on vestigial organs (from updated and verified text):
1) Tail bone at end of our spline. It was evolved from a tail since 4~5 million years ago.
2) Pelvic Bone in a whale. Whale does not need pelvic bone because it does not have lower limbs. Whale is evolved from the ancestry of tetrapods.
3) Appendix in human. No function in a human body. The same organ serves as homologous organ in other animals. Evolution explains why all animal evolved from the same ancestry.
Do you think I am more outdated than Scadding (, who cannot identify the useless organ and said it is no of use to evolution) ?
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This christian reliance on the bible is complete nonsense.
You would rather believe a group of primitives who thought lightning was a sign to kill 30 goats, who wrote a book that has not been updated for 2000 years about perfectly explainable natural events (biodiversity through evolution) and completely impossible events (noah's ark)
Rather than believe the combined knowledge and experimentation of 500 years of the world's greatest minds validated by evidence, observations and has produced life changing products like hygiene, medicine, industry and electronics?
Given these two choices, its pretty obvious which one you'd pick.
Actually, for those who think christianity is unfairly treated, they actually had a chance of ruling the world for about 100 years.
They were called the Dark Ages.
All books were burned and the central education and policy makers was the church.
Starvation was widespread, with whole families dying of lack of food, chlorea, smallpox and the common cold wiped out entire villages.
The Church's answer to the problem?
You're not praying hard enough, so god is punishing you.
Seriously guys, if you got the chance to become prime minister for a day, we'd be in very very bad shape. Thats why even the USA, where the dollar bill says "In god we trust" has enforced the rule "separation of church and the state" for 300 years and is considering taking down the "in god we trust" if the christian nuts weren't allowed to vote.
TLDR: Christianity is the obvious loser of the two choices, with absolutely no evidence to back it up.
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Originally posted by laffin123:
(1) 6000 years was stated inside. It is not my interest to believe it or to disbelieve it. I am re-stating what is inside the scripture.
"That doesn't mean it's true." I give you a benefit of re-stating your meaning of this statement. I do not want to jump at your confusion point.
(2) Please set aside your arrogance and have a good debate with me here. Your citing of Scadding gives no backing up. You and your community may be literally taking every words of Scadding as total truth and bend it to your advantage. Scadding work was incomplete and do you seriously think we should close the chapter and claim Scadding is the truth. We have all the time to work on this until the sun burns out.
Scadding's thought exercise: "Since it is not possible to unambiguously identify useless structures, and since the structure of the argument used is not scientifically valid, I conclude that ‘vestigial organs’ provide no special evidence for the theory of evolution." is more than a literal work than scientific work. Do you want to base your defense on this word-playing statement ? If Scadding did not know then, he should admit it.
According to the text I read, vestigial organs are the evidents of evolution. We share the same vestigial organ with our ancestry up link and slowly these organ are evolved to function-less organ in us.
I share some facts on vestigial organs (from updated and verified text):
1) Tail bone at end of our spline. It was evolved from a tail since 4~5 million years ago.
2) Pelvic Bone in a whale. Whale does not need pelvic bone because it does not have lower limbs. Whale is evolved from the ancestry of tetrapods.
3) Appendix in human. No function in a human body. The same organ serves as homologous organ in other animals. Evolution explains why all animal evolved from the same ancestry.
Do you think I am more outdated than Scadding (, who cannot identify the useless organ and said it is no of use to evolution) ?
Tell me where is it stated in the bible that earth is 6000 years old? Please quote that verse .
What backing do you want? There's no vestigial organ. Today's science has proven every 'vestigial organ' has a function. You go and fight with fellow evolutionist Scadding.
Still reading up outdated evolution theory eh?. The appendix has a function. It's reported in the Science Daily.
"ScienceDaily (Aug. 21, 2009) — The lowly appendix, long-regarded as a useless evolutionary artifact, won newfound respect two years ago when researchers at Duke University Medical Center proposed that it actually serves a critical function. The appendix, they said, is a safe haven where good bacteria could hang out until they were needed to repopulate the gut after a nasty case of diarrhea, for example."
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Originally posted by Superaragon:
TLDR: Christianity is the obvious loser of the two choices, with absolutely no evidence to back it up.
Just curious......has science found and proved the origins of life?
What made you said that there are Christianity has "absolutely no evidence to back it up"?
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Originally posted by googoomuck:
Tell me where is it stated in the bible that earth is 6000 years old? Please quote that verse .
What backing do you want? There's no vestigial organ. Today's science has proven every 'vestigial organ' has a function. You go and fight with fellow evolutionist Scadding.
Still reading up outdated evolution theory eh?. The appendix has a function. It's reported in the Science Daily.
"ScienceDaily (Aug. 21, 2009) — The lowly appendix, long-regarded as a useless evolutionary artifact, won newfound respect two years ago when researchers at Duke University Medical Center proposed that it actually serves a critical function. The appendix, they said, is a safe haven where good bacteria could hang out until they were needed to repopulate the gut after a nasty case of diarrhea, for example."
Fresh news on Aug 21,2009, thanks for the update. Science have been advanced.
Please share this news to your church community, and don't question evolution with your vestigial organ argument again. (My earlier description on human's appendix could be outdated and may be advanced by this piece of info)
I eat the humble pie here and feel very happy that science have invalidated creationism again and again.
laffin
in support for REASON and EVIDENCE
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Originally posted by laffin123:
Fresh news on Aug 21,2009, thanks for the update. Science have been advanced.
Please share this news to your church community, and don't question evolution with your vestigial organ argument again. (My earlier description on human's appendix could be outdated and may be advanced by this piece of info)
I eat the humble pie here and feel very happy that science have invalidated creationism again and again.
laffin
in support for REASON and EVIDENCE
Hey hey, Christians believe that everything is created for a purpose. Some evolutionists have already debunked the vestigial organs as evidence for evolution theory in 1981. Some hardcore evolutionists still stay with the discarded theory. The biology textbooks today still refer to the appendix as a vestigial organ.
Christians also study science to search for truth.... and scientists who believe in neither evolution nor creation are their allies.
True science results mesh with their beliefs.
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Originally posted by googoomuck:
Hey hey, Christians believe that everything is created for a purpose. Some evolutionists have already debunked the vestigial organs as evidence for evolution theory in 1981. Some hardcore evolutionists still stay with the discarded theory. The biology textbooks today still refer to the appendix as a vestigial organ.
Christians also study science to search for truth.... and scientists who believe in neither evolution nor creation are their allies.
True science results mesh with their beliefs.
in support for REASON and EVIDENCE
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wow, who the heck bullshited that bible says that the earth is 6000 years old ?
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Sorry to say, the bible is outdated with fanciful tales that was backdated 2000 years ago. it has no place in a post modern world. science has revealed far more than the bible did.
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Originally posted by Rooney9:
Sorry to say, the bible is outdated with fanciful tales that was backdated 2000 years ago. it has no place in a post modern world. science has revealed far more than the bible did.
So, can you share what science has discovered and proved with regards to origins of life?
Why is the Bible outdated? Because it was 2000 years old?
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Originally posted by Happyinfo2:
So, can you share what science has discovered and proved with regards to origins of life?
Why is the Bible outdated? Because it was 2000 years old?
science has revealed so much to us. at least it prove that chang er dun reside in moon. at least earthquakes are tectonic movements of the plates, and not an act of god. same for monsoon and volcanoe eruptions. at least we are drinking filtered water as compared to life 2000 years ago, which is safe for consumption.
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what has god or any god religions in this world contributed to mankind? extremism, bigotry, eccentricism, fanataism etc.
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Originally posted by Rooney9:
science has revealed so much to us. at least it prove that chang er dun reside in moon. at least earthquakes are tectonic movements of the plates, and not an act of god. same for monsoon and volcanoe eruptions. at least we are drinking filtered water as compared to life 2000 years ago, which is safe for consumption.
But my question was : "So, can you share what science has discovered and proved with regards to origins of life?"
and : "Why is the Bible outdated? Because it was 2000 years old?"
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Originally posted by Rooney9:
what has god or any god religions in this world contributed to mankind? extremism, bigotry, eccentricism, fanataism etc.
Sorry to said, but as science become more advanced, there is even a greater price to pay. When guns were bought to life by science, what were they for ? Kill your own kind. When science created bombs and nuclear silos, is it to kill everyone else ? When science created cars, what were they for ? To destroy the earth's natural ozone layer ? Science has killed millions of people in WW1 and WW2. I fear that WW3 is on it's way as Science become more advanced and create more crazy weapons.
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Originally posted by ƒlame:
wow, who the heck bullshited that bible says that the earth is 6000 years old ?
in your opinion, what is the age of earth ?
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how can earth be created in a mere 6 days? even a small house takes weeks if not months to build.
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Originally posted by Happyinfo2:
Just curious......has science found and proved the origins of life?
What made you said that there are Christianity has "absolutely no evidence to back it up"?
Well, I can say with complete honesty and pride that science does not know all the answers to origins of life. There are theories with increasing evidence supporting it like abiogensis, the rise of organic molecules through geological processes and of course, the much assaulted and much proven evolution.But the eventual answer is "We don't know. Yet."
And that is the best answer you can have, as it encourages discovery, invention and improvement.
What do christianity have to offer as an explanation?
"God did it"
Wow. Stunning. This leads to total stagnation and halt of scientific progress. All you'd had to do was sit in a cave, talk to your imaginary friend and hope to go to heaven when you die.
But lets say it is a theory.
Whats the evidence to back it up? The bible.
How do you know the events in the bible are true? Because the bible is god's word.
How do you know its god's word? Because the bible says so.
This, for those not trained in mathematical logic, is called circular logic, and is the absolute worst argument in existance.
QED, the bible is one of the absolute worst arguments in existance.
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absolutely. its explanation is dogmatic and irrational. I even have one christian friend, who is unable to answer my question when I asked him, told me god will tell me when I die. if god is so almighty why cant it offer me an explanation.
2000 years ago, whatever the church or pastor said, you accept it, sort of like blind faith, no questions asked. if you asked or challenged it, the pastor or church will say you lack faith in god. when you ask them why there are earthquakes, they will tell you its act of god and if you query them further, they will tell you its fate, god plan or punishment to bad people who have sinned. this type of reply will gobsmacked you to your face. the list goes on and on.
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ok...so the atheists can wait for another 1000yrs for science to advance enuff to prove everything tat has yet to be proven...however, comes one problem, do these atheists have a long enuff life to live until tat day come when science disproves religion? hmmm...if they cun live tat long and it turns out tat theres a God which science still couldnt discover when they die, i wonder wad is gonna happen to them...