what happen to kong hee dishonesty case?
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Originally posted by BanguIzai:
kong hee fatt choy for the new year
does he give ang bao to his followers or his followers have to give him a big ang bao called tithes?
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big AngBao is a must in church.....................
when you got no money..................even Jesus got no time to see you............
PAYING customers always come first.....................
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Originally posted by Susanteo2011:
big AngBao is a must in church.....................
when you got no money..................even Jesus got no time to see you............
PAYING customers always come first.....................
Looks like it is hard to find a non-troll atheist here. Perhaps the only one is reasonable.atheist.
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Originally posted by BroInChrist:
Looks like it is hard to find a non-troll atheist here. Perhaps the only one is reasonable.atheist.
look no further than that, you are the biggest second to none xtian troller here
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Originally posted by Jacky Woo:
does he give ang bao to his followers or his followers have to give him a big ang bao called tithes?
I don't mind getting ang bao.
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I went to the 5pm CHC Service last Saturday. What did the CHC members learn during this session. My report:
Service started of with worship songs. A semi-professional rock band played Christian rock in karayoke style.
A guitar player/singer led most of the songs. While singing his face went into a grin which I can only imitate when sitting on the toilet, trying to squeeze out last night’s curry. In short, he meant serious business.
The lead female singer, who was admittedly quite hot and has a very good voice, mixed singing with “speaking in tongues” to heat up the atmosphere. And it worked. In no time, 95% of the congregation had this weird expression in their faces, eyes closed, hands up, some of them even crying.
I wonder what they would think if they saw themselves. Very awkward and very uncomfortable indeed. People have been strapped up, arms on their back for less. The songs were no different sounded the same as last week, supported by the fact that everybody seemed to know all the words by heart.
What was Kong Hee’s message to his troops?
Message 1: Tithing is not enough – Offering is in order.
In short, “Almost all of us are tithing 10%”. The “almost” being a little slap in the face of the culprits not performing their CHC duties. I wonder if they felt it as such. “The tithing is needed for the ministries of the church. Yet, Kong Hee continued, “In order to seed, and later on reap the rewards, we must give more than the 10%. Offerings are in order.”To prove he is right, he violated a verse from 1 Kings, where a poor lady is giving precious water, and her last flower and oil to Elijah…The Lord would ensure that the flower bucket will never run empty.
Translated by Kong Hee: “If you give your last penny, your bank account will never run dry” A lady who offered 1,700 some SGD last time, received the Lords blessing. The blessing was: Her grandfather died ??? (some blessing), and the family decided to sell the house, leaving her with 400kSGD. Praise the Lord. I wonder how the grandfather feels about this blessing when looking down?.
I learned very quickly that there is no point in having a mature discussion on tithing with CHC members. Their minds have been programmed. For those CHC members with still a little bit of rational left, I suggest to google “tithing in the bible”. Without going into detail, they will find that tithing in the OT was indeed required as the church played the role of provider of material as well as spiritual health. Tithe can be compared to paying the IRAS taxes today. The tithing, which was usually not money but grain, fruits, … was used to support society. Of the tithes going to CHC very little (7%) returns to the community, as such, whatever money you give Kong Hee, it is not the tithing as referred to in the Bible. In addition, you will find the word tithing only 3 times in the NT. And in all 3 cases, it does not mean, giving money. Go look it up – or better – ask your Cell group leader to explain.
Message 2:
SOT (I assume this is the 8 months bible school program) needs new blood. 2 people, a obviously nervous lady, and a more confident young fellow, testified how great SOT has been for them. The major achievement of the lady is: She is no longer shy to talk in public, proving by answering prepared questions in front of the 7,500 gathered. Whether she really is successful in her business as claimed, was not detailed. She does manage her time better, similar to I guess most of the mother’s in Singapore.A positive surprise was Dr. Robi Sonderegger. I assume that he is a real PhD, unlike KH’s online purchased honorary PhD. Robi actually had the guts, and the wits, to stand in front of the complete
CHC congregation to tell them following:
“Let’s not build yet another church” – “Let’s stop seeding in order to receive for ourselves” – “Let’s start giving without expecting return to family, friends and enemies alike” – Let’s spend the money on the poor.
He gave a very colourful African story to support his message. “WHY DO WHITE PEOPLE ALWAYS WANT TO RECEIVE”, said the primitive tribal head, and in my head it echoed: 30-60-100FOLD.
STOP SEEDING TO RECEIVE MONEY FOR YOURSELF!!!! ENSURE THAT YOUR INVESTMENT IS USED TO BENEFIT THE POOR AND NEEDY! STOP GIVING MONEY TO A RICH CHURCH WHO DOES NOT SPEND IT ON THE NEEDY.
All loud and clear, yet I wonder if the CHC members understand what this means for their tithing practices.Robi, Good job!!!
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Originally posted by James_Tan_1983:
I went to the 5pm CHC Service last Saturday. What did the CHC members learn during this session. My report:
Service started of with worship songs. A semi-professional rock band played Christian rock in karayoke style.
A guitar player/singer led most of the songs. While singing his face went into a grin which I can only imitate when sitting on the toilet, trying to squeeze out last night’s curry. In short, he meant serious business.
The lead female singer, who was admittedly quite hot and has a very good voice, mixed singing with “speaking in tongues” to heat up the atmosphere. And it worked. In no time, 95% of the congregation had this weird expression in their faces, eyes closed, hands up, some of them even crying.
I wonder what they would think if they saw themselves. Very awkward and very uncomfortable indeed. People have been strapped up, arms on their back for less. The songs were no different sounded the same as last week, supported by the fact that everybody seemed to know all the words by heart.
What was Kong Hee’s message to his troops?
Message 1: Tithing is not enough – Offering is in order.
In short, “Almost all of us are tithing 10%”. The “almost” being a little slap in the face of the culprits not performing their CHC duties. I wonder if they felt it as such. “The tithing is needed for the ministries of the church. Yet, Kong Hee continued, “In order to seed, and later on reap the rewards, we must give more than the 10%. Offerings are in order.”To prove he is right, he violated a verse from 1 Kings, where a poor lady is giving precious water, and her last flower and oil to Elijah…The Lord would ensure that the flower bucket will never run empty.
Translated by Kong Hee: “If you give your last penny, your bank account will never run dry” A lady who offered 1,700 some SGD last time, received the Lords blessing. The blessing was: Her grandfather died ??? (some blessing), and the family decided to sell the house, leaving her with 400kSGD. Praise the Lord. I wonder how the grandfather feels about this blessing when looking down?.
I learned very quickly that there is no point in having a mature discussion on tithing with CHC members. Their minds have been programmed. For those CHC members with still a little bit of rational left, I suggest to google “tithing in the bible”. Without going into detail, they will find that tithing in the OT was indeed required as the church played the role of provider of material as well as spiritual health. Tithe can be compared to paying the IRAS taxes today. The tithing, which was usually not money but grain, fruits, … was used to support society. Of the tithes going to CHC very little (7%) returns to the community, as such, whatever money you give Kong Hee, it is not the tithing as referred to in the Bible. In addition, you will find the word tithing only 3 times in the NT. And in all 3 cases, it does not mean, giving money. Go look it up – or better – ask your Cell group leader to explain.
Message 2:
SOT (I assume this is the 8 months bible school program) needs new blood. 2 people, a obviously nervous lady, and a more confident young fellow, testified how great SOT has been for them. The major achievement of the lady is: She is no longer shy to talk in public, proving by answering prepared questions in front of the 7,500 gathered. Whether she really is successful in her business as claimed, was not detailed. She does manage her time better, similar to I guess most of the mother’s in Singapore.A positive surprise was Dr. Robi Sonderegger. I assume that he is a real PhD, unlike KH’s online purchased honorary PhD. Robi actually had the guts, and the wits, to stand in front of the complete
<!--[if !supportLineBreakNewLine]-->
<!--[endif]-->CHC congregation to tell them following:
“Let’s not build yet another church” – “Let’s stop seeding in order to receive for ourselves” – “Let’s start giving without expecting return to family, friends and enemies alike” – Let’s spend the money on the poor.
He gave a very colourful African story to support his message. “WHY DO WHITE PEOPLE ALWAYS WANT TO RECEIVE”, said the primitive tribal head, and in my head it echoed: 30-60-100FOLD.
STOP SEEDING TO RECEIVE MONEY FOR YOURSELF!!!! ENSURE THAT YOUR INVESTMENT IS USED TO BENEFIT THE POOR AND NEEDY! STOP GIVING MONEY TO A RICH CHURCH WHO DOES NOT SPEND IT ON THE NEEDY.
All loud and clear, yet I wonder if the CHC members understand what this means for their tithing practices.Robi, Good job!!!
Thanks James for again sharing your experience at CHC. Perhaps you might like to also share with us how the church should be like?
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Religion is good business.
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Originally posted by charlize:
Religion is good business.
So is atheism. People like Richard Dawkins and Sam Harris make lots of money writing against Christianity without any regard for truth. But such is the nature of their polemical writings. All they need to do is to publish their rantings rehashing old canards against the Christian faith that have long been refuted or addressed by Christian apologists. But then again, as long as there's money to be made out of attacking Christianity, who cares!
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Originally posted by BroInChrist:
So is atheism. People like Richard Dawkins and Sam Harris make lots of money writing against Christianity without any regard for truth. But such is the nature of their polemical writings. All they need to do is to publish their rantings rehashing old canards against the Christian faith that have long been refuted or addressed by Christian apologists. But then again, as long as there's money to be made out of attacking Christianity, who cares!
Money money money.
It's a rich man's world.
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“What a church should do?” That's big question. Answer is not that difficult but little bit lengthy...
“Church” comes from the Greek á¼�κκλησία (ekklÄ“siÄ�). In French a church is still called “l' Eglise” Basically it means “Assembly”.
In the NT it is used in 2 different ways:
-
The Body of Christ. This is the global church made up of all Christians around the world
-
A local group of believers: This is the local representation of the global church
In accordance to God's plan, the purpose of the church can be summarized to 2 main objectives:
-
Spread Christianity to non-believers
-
Edify the members of the church
Opposite to the teachings of Kong Hee, a church is not a building, a church is not a meeting place, a church is not an organization, a church is not a denomination. The totality of all believers in Christ are the “Body of Christ”.
So how to spread Christianity and edify (read “look after the SPIRITUAL health of...”) the Christians?
A church must preach the Gospel of Jesus Christ. A church must teach how to be good Christians. Thousand of books, blogs etc have been written on this topic but it essence it means: Following the example of Christ in ANY circumstances.
An easy cross check is to ask oneself the question:
What did Jesus do?What would Jesus do?
What would Jesus say?
What did Jesus do when he saw what the Pharisees did to the temple?
What would Jesus do or say when he would join a CHC service?
What would Jesus say about millions of dollars in the Church bank while the poor and needy are being short-changed?
What would Jesus have to say about a church leader who calls himself a business man?
Knowing that every 4 seconds, adding up to 20,000 per day, children die of malnutrition, what would Jesus say about a leader who owns multiple condo's, wears 500k SGD range watches, buys businesses, wears designer clothes,...?
What would Jesus have to say to a leader who claims “Jesus was financially rich”
Jesus Christ thought us charity, selflessness, liberation, and a focused attention on God.
THIS IS WHAT A CHURCH SHOULD TEACH.CHC is teaching a Gospel of greed, selfishness, oppression, ... a focused attention on the self.
CHC has has promoted “self” to play the lead role during services and church activities while God has been degraded to the bench and is only required on demand. “Let's give the Lord a clap!!!”
CHC paints a picture of God as loan shark requiring CHC members to pay money to Kong Hee and his pet projects or otherwise their lives will not be blessed with financial wealth or good health. Kong Hee seems to have forgotten to care for the poor, the widows, the orphans, even within his own club, let alone the outside community. Living up to his reputation as business man, Kong Hee appears to be more like a CEO of a Top Fortune 100 company, including the benefit package any CEO is entitled to. Meanwhile, many of the CHC members continue to struggle paying the bills.
Did Christ come, live, and die so that CHC members can buy a condo, drive a car, or have financial security? I don't think so!!!
What is happening in CHC is a repetition of the practices of the early Catholic clergy right before the protestant reformation. The money raised to provide for the poor and needy added only to the wealth of greedy Cardinals and Bishops, and build the great (today empty) cathedrals and churches in Europe.
I welcome Kong Hee to show us where it says in the scriptures a church should preach prosperity, wealth, health. I believe that Kong Hee is well aware that the gospel he is preaching has been invented in the US and is nothing more than a twisting of scriptures to meet the American Dream of individualism, materialism, and greed.
God calls the faithful into a community not individualism, so THIS IS WHAT A CHURCH SHOULD DO. Christ enjoins all humans to love one another (John 13:34). This includes all and not just CHC members. I keep hearing things like “CHC is the best church”, or “Only in CHC you will find ...” are only boosting “Self”.
Christ has shown us the path AWAY from materialism. “lay up for yourselves treasurers in heaven…” (Matthew 6:21). SO THIS IS WHAT A CHURCH SHOULD DO. 30-60-100 fold promises to gain worldly riches are not what the scriptures are telling us.Jesus continuously warns us for Greed. Tells us to be content. “Take care! Be on your guard against all kinds of greed; for one’s life does not consist in the abundance of possession (Luke 12:15, NRSV).” SO THIS IS WHAT A CHURCH SHOULD DO.
What is fundamentally wrong with the CHC teachings?
I have not been able to detect a gospel, only a lack of. CHC seems to preach a God who is either a “vending machine” or “extortionist,” requiring our faith and money as currency for a prosperous life.
God is not worshipped out of love nor respect. God is praised only because CHC members expect something in return. “Give the Lord a clap!”
WHAT A CHURCH SHOULD DO is to teach the immutability of God.
In opposite, CHC teaches people that tithing and offering is the ONLY path in order to get something from God. CHC is making the bottom line all about money. This smothers any fruitful teaching or discussions with regards to Grace vs. Works, which is WHAT SHOULD BE DONE BY A CHURCH to strengthen the spiritual health of Christians.
CHC equals being rich or having good health, to having great faith. The early church fathers, who laid the foundation of all Christian churches today, lived in poverty and died as slaves. Did they lack great faith? Would they have escaped slavery if they had enough faith? If they had tithed and offered? Doesn't this desecrate the memory of our early church fathers?
Realistically, the CHC teachings are only targeting at increasing the wealth of Kong Hee and a selected few. In CHC the majority of the members are financially “less-fortunate” than the “fortunate” Kong Hee. Otherwise Kong Hee would not bother to emotionally claim that the unemployed, the pensioners, the students, ...all must give with tears running down face and all.
We find the same situation in many societies where the wealth of selected “fortunate” few is built upon exploiting the majority of “less-fortunates”.
In order to get even more “fortunate”, the “fortunates” must invite a scheme to take money from the “less-fortunates”. It is quite convenient to have a group of genuine yet “less-fortunate” Christian believers and manipulate or indoctrinate a methodology to take more money “In the name of Christ”.
Kong Hee repeats every week: “If you give me your money, I will invest it for you in “good works”, and if you are faithful enough, you will get a big reward.To feed the greed of the “fortunates”, it is no surprise that pursuit of material gain “ARISE and BUILD” has become target number one in CHC.
I keep wondering where CHC members get the notion that they are “ENTITLED” to great wealth and good health.One could make a case for CHC if the majority of the income would be used to help the poor, to help the needy, to help the orphans, to help the sick.
Sadly this is not the case. CHC could have a huge positive impact on society yet they choose not to
Do CHC members realize that with all the money available, actually could make a huge difference in helping the poor and needy? With all the cash in the bank, so many poor and needy would be helped. Even within the CHC ranks...Money could be used to endorse scolarships, fund education, help out CHC members in financial trouble, provide healthcare, feed the hungry, build shelters for homeless, … And not to worry, there is enough money to cover the Suntec rent for several generations.
I can understand that covered by huge marketing efforts and the creation of many ministries, a CHC member can easily be tricked into believing the money is used for charity.
The money is not used for charity. Most of the ministries are aimed towards providing for CHC members only. In addition to that, the ministries are self-sufficient thanks to the hard and free work of many dedicated CHC Christians.It is not too late for CHC to follow into Christ's footsteps, and reach out to the poor and needy. I would expect all the nasty comments on Kong Hee's behalf would cease instantly. Nobody will attack a person who actually does good work for others. THIS IS WHAT CHC SHOULD DO.
Kong Hee has made the choice is to bypass and short-change the poor, and give the money instead to increase fame, larger buildings, better weekend shows, promotion of devotional material, videos, music,...
Jesus got only really upset once: ‘My house shall be called a house of prayer;’ but you are making it a den of robbers!... CHC services, with all the articles for sale, are the contemporary version of this.
Some time ago, a convention of 4000+ theologist gathered during a convention in Lausanne , Switzerland, to address the focus of churches on prosperity. The convention formulated conclusions with regards to the prosperity gospel as it is teached in CHC. You can read an article called “Walk in simplicity, rejecting the idolatry of greed” (http://conversation.lausanne.org/en/home/prosperity-gospel) or simply google to read the detailed reports.
It is not all bad, but a serious shift in CHC back to the Gospel, back to following Christ is highly recommended.
-
-
Originally posted by James_Tan_1983:
“What a church should do?” That's big question. Answer is not that difficult but little bit lengthy...
“Church” comes from the Greek á¼�κκλησία (ekklÄ“siÄ�). In French a church is still called “l' Eglise” Basically it means “Assembly”.
In the NT it is used in 2 different ways:
-
The Body of Christ. This is the global church made up of all Christians around the world
-
A local group of believers: This is the local representation of the global church
In accordance to God's plan, the purpose of the church can be summarized to 2 main objectives:
-
Spread Christianity to non-believers
-
Edify the members of the church
Opposite to the teachings of Kong Hee, a church is not a building, a church is not a meeting place, a church is not an organization, a church is not a denomination. The totality of all believers in Christ are the “Body of Christ”.
So how to spread Christianity and edify (read “look after the SPIRITUAL health of...”) the Christians?
A church must preach the Gospel of Jesus Christ. A church must teach how to be good Christians. Thousand of books, blogs etc have been written on this topic but it essence it means: Following the example of Christ in ANY circumstances.
An easy cross check is to ask oneself the question:
What did Jesus do?What would Jesus do?
What would Jesus say?
What did Jesus do when he saw what the Pharisees did to the temple?
What would Jesus do or say when he would join a CHC service?
What would Jesus say about millions of dollars in the Church bank while the poor and needy are being short-changed?
What would Jesus have to say about a church leader who calls himself a business man?
Knowing that every 4 seconds, adding up to 20,000 per day, children die of malnutrition, what would Jesus say about a leader who owns multiple condo's, wears 500k SGD range watches, buys businesses, wears designer clothes,...?
What would Jesus have to say to a leader who claims “Jesus was financially rich”
Jesus Christ thought us charity, selflessness, liberation, and a focused attention on God.
THIS IS WHAT A CHURCH SHOULD TEACH.CHC is teaching a Gospel of greed, selfishness, oppression, ... a focused attention on the self.
CHC has has promoted “self” to play the lead role during services and church activities while God has been degraded to the bench and is only required on demand. “Let's give the Lord a clap!!!”
CHC paints a picture of God as loan shark requiring CHC members to pay money to Kong Hee and his pet projects or otherwise their lives will not be blessed with financial wealth or good health. Kong Hee seems to have forgotten to care for the poor, the widows, the orphans, even within his own club, let alone the outside community. Living up to his reputation as business man, Kong Hee appears to be more like a CEO of a Top Fortune 100 company, including the benefit package any CEO is entitled to. Meanwhile, many of the CHC members continue to struggle paying the bills.
Did Christ come, live, and die so that CHC members can buy a condo, drive a car, or have financial security? I don't think so!!!
What is happening in CHC is a repetition of the practices of the early Catholic clergy right before the protestant reformation. The money raised to provide for the poor and needy added only to the wealth of greedy Cardinals and Bishops, and build the great (today empty) cathedrals and churches in Europe.
I welcome Kong Hee to show us where it says in the scriptures a church should preach prosperity, wealth, health. I believe that Kong Hee is well aware that the gospel he is preaching has been invented in the US and is nothing more than a twisting of scriptures to meet the American Dream of individualism, materialism, and greed.
God calls the faithful into a community not individualism, so THIS IS WHAT A CHURCH SHOULD DO. Christ enjoins all humans to love one another (John 13:34). This includes all and not just CHC members. I keep hearing things like “CHC is the best church”, or “Only in CHC you will find ...” are only boosting “Self”.
Christ has shown us the path AWAY from materialism. “lay up for yourselves treasurers in heaven…” (Matthew 6:21). SO THIS IS WHAT A CHURCH SHOULD DO. 30-60-100 fold promises to gain worldly riches are not what the scriptures are telling us.Jesus continuously warns us for Greed. Tells us to be content. “Take care! Be on your guard against all kinds of greed; for one’s life does not consist in the abundance of possession (Luke 12:15, NRSV).” SO THIS IS WHAT A CHURCH SHOULD DO.
What is fundamentally wrong with the CHC teachings?
I have not been able to detect a gospel, only a lack of. CHC seems to preach a God who is either a “vending machine” or “extortionist,” requiring our faith and money as currency for a prosperous life.
God is not worshipped out of love nor respect. God is praised only because CHC members expect something in return. “Give the Lord a clap!”
WHAT A CHURCH SHOULD DO is to teach the immutability of God.
In opposite, CHC teaches people that tithing and offering is the ONLY path in order to get something from God. CHC is making the bottom line all about money. This smothers any fruitful teaching or discussions with regards to Grace vs. Works, which is WHAT SHOULD BE DONE BY A CHURCH to strengthen the spiritual health of Christians.
CHC equals being rich or having good health, to having great faith. The early church fathers, who laid the foundation of all Christian churches today, lived in poverty and died as slaves. Did they lack great faith? Would they have escaped slavery if they had enough faith? If they had tithed and offered? Doesn't this desecrate the memory of our early church fathers?
Realistically, the CHC teachings are only targeting at increasing the wealth of Kong Hee and a selected few. In CHC the majority of the members are financially “less-fortunate” than the “fortunate” Kong Hee. Otherwise Kong Hee would not bother to emotionally claim that the unemployed, the pensioners, the students, ...all must give with tears running down face and all.
We find the same situation in many societies where the wealth of selected “fortunate” few is built upon exploiting the majority of “less-fortunates”.
In order to get even more “fortunate”, the “fortunates” must invite a scheme to take money from the “less-fortunates”. It is quite convenient to have a group of genuine yet “less-fortunate” Christian believers and manipulate or indoctrinate a methodology to take more money “In the name of Christ”.
Kong Hee repeats every week: “If you give me your money, I will invest it for you in “good works”, and if you are faithful enough, you will get a big reward.To feed the greed of the “fortunates”, it is no surprise that pursuit of material gain “ARISE and BUILD” has become target number one in CHC.
I keep wondering where CHC members get the notion that they are “ENTITLED” to great wealth and good health.One could make a case for CHC if the majority of the income would be used to help the poor, to help the needy, to help the orphans, to help the sick.
Sadly this is not the case. CHC could have a huge positive impact on society yet they choose not to
Do CHC members realize that with all the money available, actually could make a huge difference in helping the poor and needy? With all the cash in the bank, so many poor and needy would be helped. Even within the CHC ranks...Money could be used to endorse scolarships, fund education, help out CHC members in financial trouble, provide healthcare, feed the hungry, build shelters for homeless, … And not to worry, there is enough money to cover the Suntec rent for several generations.
I can understand that covered by huge marketing efforts and the creation of many ministries, a CHC member can easily be tricked into believing the money is used for charity.
The money is not used for charity. Most of the ministries are aimed towards providing for CHC members only. In addition to that, the ministries are self-sufficient thanks to the hard and free work of many dedicated CHC Christians.It is not too late for CHC to follow into Christ's footsteps, and reach out to the poor and needy. I would expect all the nasty comments on Kong Hee's behalf would cease instantly. Nobody will attack a person who actually does good work for others. THIS IS WHAT CHC SHOULD DO.
Kong Hee has made the choice is to bypass and short-change the poor, and give the money instead to increase fame, larger buildings, better weekend shows, promotion of devotional material, videos, music,...
Jesus got only really upset once: ‘My house shall be called a house of prayer;’ but you are making it a den of robbers!... CHC services, with all the articles for sale, are the contemporary version of this.
Some time ago, a convention of 4000+ theologist gathered during a convention in Lausanne , Switzerland, to address the focus of churches on prosperity. The convention formulated conclusions with regards to the prosperity gospel as it is teached in CHC. You can read an article called “Walk in simplicity, rejecting the idolatry of greed” (http://conversation.lausanne.org/en/home/prosperity-gospel) or simply google to read the detailed reports.
It is not all bad, but a serious shift in CHC back to the Gospel, back to following Christ is highly recommended.
Thanks again for the sharing. Perhaps mega churches like CHC or NCC are but the top ranks of the institutional malaise that plagues most churches?
-
-
actually if it is all about the relationship with god, is there really a need to have churches?
-
Originally posted by [imdestinyz]:
actually if it is all about the relationship with god, is there really a need to have churches?
When fools abide, rascals rule the roost! catch the drift? -
Should believers attend church?
For Christians, in obedience to the scriptures, to it is important to attend Church with fellow Christians to strengthen the spiritual well-being. A relationship with God automatically includes the fellowship with other Christians.
With reference to BroInChrist's comment, the institutional malaise in many churches does not make an assembly of genuine Christians easy. Many scriptures warn for false teachers. One of my favorite you find in Deuteronomy:
“If a prophet or a dreamer of dreams arises among you and gives you a sign or a wonder, 2 and the sign or the wonder comes true, concerning which he spoke to you, saying, ‘Let us go after other gods (whom you have not known) and let us serve them,’ 3 you shall not listen to the words of that prophet or that dreamer of dreams; for the LORD your God is testing you to find out if you love the LORD your God with all your heart and with all your soul. 4 You shall follow the LORD your God and fear Him; and you shall keep His commandments, listen to His voice, serve Him, and cling to Him.It is the false teachers, and "their fruits" which cause many people to turn away from Faith.
Paul describes in various letters how a true church should act. His letters to the Corinthians, where Paul is addressing several moral issues as well as divisions that had formed, proclaiming themselves followers of Christ, very much apply to CHC, including the rebuking of speaking in tongues.
With reference to today's Mega-churches. There is one common denominator. All Mega churches, without any exception, have a rich Pastor living la vida loco, and a flock poor in spirit and financials. Coincidence?
-
There was a charismatic Church (I won't name it), Pastor kept asking more and more from the flock.
One day, CPIB questioned him about some financial irregularity.
In exchange for immunity from prosecution, he stepped down, handed over and left country.
He was caught falsifying invoice to get bank loan.
-
Originally posted by [imdestinyz]:
actually if it is all about the relationship with god, is there really a need to have churches?
That depends on what you mean by "churches". In the NT, churches refer to the people of God, so the question of whether there is a need to have churches (people of God) seems rather odd. Or perhaps you were referring to churches as buildings? Is so, then the question sounds legitimate as in, "Is there really a need to have $42m church buildings?"
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Originally posted by BroInChrist:
That depends on what you mean by "churches". In the NT, churches refer to the people of God, so the question of whether there is a need to have churches (people of God) seems rather odd. Or perhaps you were referring to churches as buildings? Is so, then the question sounds legitimate as in, "Is there really a need to have $42m church buildings?"
oh i am actually not quite familiar with the NT at all... by churches i mean places of worship. I mean if all is about r/s with god then that r/s can be done anywhere mah. We do not exactly need a place of worship of a specific place to build that r/s right? correct me if im wrong about that. Assuming that wad i said is correct then it is even more unlegitimate for a 42m church building since i believe god had not taught ppl to build 42m buildings to "worship" him. -
Originally posted by James_Tan_1983:
Should believers attend church?
For Christians, in obedience to the scriptures, to it is important to attend Church with fellow Christians to strengthen the spiritual well-being. A relationship with God automatically includes the fellowship with other Christians.
With reference to BroInChrist's comment, the institutional malaise in many churches does not make an assembly of genuine Christians easy. Many scriptures warn for false teachers. One of my favorite you find in Deuteronomy:
“If a prophet or a dreamer of dreams arises among you and gives you a sign or a wonder, 2 and the sign or the wonder comes true, concerning which he spoke to you, saying, ‘Let us go after other gods (whom you have not known) and let us serve them,’ 3 you shall not listen to the words of that prophet or that dreamer of dreams; for the LORD your God is testing you to find out if you love the LORD your God with all your heart and with all your soul. 4 You shall follow the LORD your God and fear Him; and you shall keep His commandments, listen to His voice, serve Him, and cling to Him.It is the false teachers, and "their fruits" which cause many people to turn away from Faith.
Paul describes in various letters how a true church should act. His letters to the Corinthians, where Paul is addressing several moral issues as well as divisions that had formed, proclaiming themselves followers of Christ, very much apply to CHC, including the rebuking of speaking in tongues.
With reference to today's Mega-churches. There is one common denominator. All Mega churches, without any exception, have a rich Pastor living la vida loco, and a flock poor in spirit and financials. Coincidence?
Yes, believers should never forsake the assembly of saints for mutual edification. The institutional malaise I was referring to was that many churches are being treated as organisations (even corporations!), and as such will suffer the faults of such entities. And the bigger they are, the more resources (money, time, staff) are needed to keep the institutional machinery going.
But like I mentioned earlier, the mega churches differ from others only in terms of scale, but the mindsets are pretty much the same, if I may say so. With the large churches (and many small churches are trying to get large), pastors become detached from the people, and additional layers of staff are put between the pastors and the flock. I remember reading Lawrence Khong's book years ago on the Cell Church, where he says he has no time for the sheep so he only meets with zone pastors to get feedback about the sheep. No time for the sheep? It's sad to read that. He ends up becoming a GM or CEO so that people look to him for leadership and direction (shouldn't we be looking to Jesus as Chief Shepherd as in 1 Pet 5:4?). It's no wonder that some churches even use the familiar reasoning that we must pay pastors the kind of salaries that they forgone had they been working professionally as lawyers or businessmen etc etc.
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Originally posted by [imdestinyz]:
oh i am actually not quite familiar with the NT at all... by churches i mean places of worship. I mean if all is about r/s with god then that r/s can be done anywhere mah. We do not exactly need a place of worship of a specific place to build that r/s right? correct me if im wrong about that. Assuming that wad i said is correct then it is even more unlegitimate for a 42m church building since i believe god had not taught ppl to build 42m buildings to "worship" him.The NT teaches that believers are to meet regularly to break bread (in addition to prayer, devotion to apostles' teachings, fellowship as in Acts 2:42) and to meet would presuppose a requirement for a place for that. BUT again in the NT churches are NOT places of worship. In the early church there were no dedicated buildings called churches. In fact, there is no such thing as a "worship service" in the NT! There were no order of services but there were to be orderly meetings of believers everywhere, primarily in each other's homes. Of course, the Corinthian churches were a charismatic mess, which is why Paul had to tell them to take turns to speak, and that tongues followed by interpretations etc. For Paul, chaos and confusion is not the proper setting for the edification of the saints.
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oh that means that essentially there is no such need for churches at all right? becos all it needs is a place for fellowers to get together and since there is no worship service in the first place? how did it eventually "evolved" till what we are seeing now? Which means the existent of mega churches like city harvest is just going in another direction from which god or christ had orignally taught??
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Originally posted by [imdestinyz]:
oh that means that essentially there is no such need for churches at all right? becos all it needs is a place for fellowers to get together and since there is no worship service in the first place? how did it eventually "evolved" till what we are seeing now? Which means the existent of mega churches like city harvest is just going in another direction from which god or christ had orignally taught??
If you ask me if there is a need for a place to meet, the answer is YES. But of you ask me if there is a need for a dedicated church building, the answer is NO.
Confused?
Here's a NT clue for you, Acts 2:46 says "Every day they continued to gather together by common consent in the temple courts, breaking bread from house to house, sharing their food with glad and humble hearts, praising God and having the good will of all the people. And the Lord was adding to their number every day those who were being saved."
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Originally posted by BroInChrist:
If you ask me if there is a need for a place to meet, the answer is YES. But of you ask me if there is a need for a dedicated church building, the answer is NO.
Confused?
Here's a NT clue for you, Acts 2:46 says "Every day they continued to gather together by common consent in the temple courts, breaking bread from house to house, sharing their food with glad and humble hearts, praising God and having the good will of all the people. And the Lord was adding to their number every day those who were being saved."
so in other words there isn't a definite need for a dedicated church building... neither was running a church the way it was done at CHC lo. Which means it sounded like some sort of conspiracy though. Would someone who's is qualified enough to be a pastor like kong hee not realise or thought of the same thing as to wad we are discussing right now? -
aiyoh...................still got people believing in those fairytales in the Bible ah ?
a Bible that was written by guys who thought the Earth was flat.....................
and killed people for saying otherwise ?
and they say we're in the Space Age liao....................LOL
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Originally posted by [imdestinyz]:
so in other words there isn't a definite need for a dedicated church building... neither was running a church the way it was done at CHC lo. Which means it sounded like some sort of conspiracy though. Would someone who's is qualified enough to be a pastor like kong hee not realise or thought of the same thing as to wad we are discussing right now?I wouldn't say this is a conspiracy. There are historical reasons for church buildings, but this is not the same as saying that there are Biblical reasons for church buildings. The fact is that many Christians simply accept things the way they have been for generations. Pastors, no matter what theological seminary (some would call it theological cemetery), simply can think of no other way of "doing church" than that which they have been exposed to. The same with many Christians everywhere who who not question why things are done the way they are. It's has simply been accepted as the way to do things that was handed down by those who came before.