what happen to kong hee dishonesty case?
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The fear of one's beliefs not holding up to reality is deflected by questioning others so as to avoid seeing or questioning one’s own attachement to a dogma, belief or ..... Eg If I am a Buddhist and hold buddhist beliefs, anyone criticising buddha or … would threaten my sense of self. The criticism of Buddha or .. is merely an excuse. my being defensive says what I am all about and that is, in this instance this: I fear that my sense of self that is being propped up by my attachment to beliefs, dogmas, traditions is questioned. I m not an atheist nor am I a theist,so where do i belong? I will belong somewhere with certainty if i am looking to reaffirm my sense of self or find meaning to my self. AND why would I do that, cos i want to feel secure and add value to my self. I am not secure within. I will latch onto anything outside of me that props me up. Most question, certainly they do, but look for answers and (most likey to reaffirm what has been told to them. They do not question beleifs, traditions, so on so forth and why? There is another type that questions, – they question and not look for answers but reevaluate, examine and drop what is misleading or erroneous. The third type – simply being aware of …. , cos the latter is a synthesis of inner and outer (inner and outer) Hence, i reiterate one can be religious and gravitate towards being spiritual. Religion, most are merely pointers to being spiritual. Religion (all) is learning and of course, for the seeker the possibility of it as a device to being spiritual is there. For the follower, if one is sleepwalking – it is nothing but rituals after rituals. Spirituality is unlearning, not collecting, it is unlearning, a process where one unloads all the ’’rubbish’’. True or false all depends on where one is on the spectrum of learning/unleraning/relgion/spirituality. PS – In the straw-clutching stance of being defensive, even this is overlooked: there is a difference bet self-deception and self-delusion!
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PS - I m not an atheist nor am I a theist,so where do i belong? I will belong somewhere with certainty if i am looking to reaffirm my sense of self or find meaning to my self. AND why would I do that, cos i want to feel secure and add value to my self. I am not secure within. I will latch onto anything outside of me that props me up
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Dear BroInChrist:
Troll??? I fail to see why you have to revert to name calling. It brings up a picture of a five year old hence undermines your credibility.
I agree, entering into a discussion with non-Christians thru a blog is not a productive exercise. Since both parties fundamentally disagree, up to a point where they voice their belief on internet, the only result will be throwing names back and forth. So yes – ignore.
To make the link back to City Harvest Church. It was not my intention to mock, and I apologize if I created the wrong impression. Having said that, I do disagree with many of Kong Hee’s teachings. Disagree would be an overstatement, as I am still to discover any teachings.
What should a church be teaching to its Christian members?
To answer the first question, the Epistles give rather clear and to-the-point instructions what a church and its leader have to teach.Is Kong Hee following the instructions written down in the Epistels?
The answer to that regrettable is “No”. On the contrary, when Paul and his brothers are rebuking the Corinthians and early churches, or warn about false teachers, one almost gets the impression the letters are written with CHC in mind.
1 Cor 14:9 Nevertheless, in church I would rather speak five words with my mind in order to instruct others, than ten thousand words in a tongue...
And if you really need to Speak in Tongues in Church. Max 2 or 3 at the same time, and only if interpreter present.
So what does CHC teach?
It is difficult to identify what CHC is teaching, all seems money centered, and this is definitely does not seem in line with the scriptures.
CHC seems to use a reverse teaching method.
Meaning: Today, Kong Hee sets a target theme "God wants you to prosper" and consequently the Bible is scanned for any verse that seems to underline the target. If the wording fits, the verse is pulled out of its context, words are highlighted, lesson complete.In this example is the verse in
3 John 1:2 Beloved, I pray that you may prosper in all things and be in health (NKJV)Most CHC members have memorised this verse and translated it to
“God wants you to prosper” as this is what KH tought them.
3 John is a letter from John to his friend Gaius who is in bad health. The second verse is nothing but a greeting. If you read the verse in NIV, this becomes more clear:Dear friend, I pray that you may enjoy good health and that all may go well with you (NIV)
The CHC gospel is based on preaching health and wealth using concepts from the metaphysical positive thinking movement, flavoured with bible verses.
International speakers such as seem to be missing the mark completely yet are highly appreciated guests welcomed in CHC every year:
- Benny Hinn:
“You are a little God on earth running around”- John Avanzini:
“Jesus was handling big money because that treasurer He had was a thief”- Steve Munsey:
“Go to the phone, dial the number on the screen as fast as you can. Give $50 dollars a month for 10 months, God will do a now miracle...Wooo! I feel the Holy Spirit...”- Phil Pringle :
”Great leaders inspire people to give”- David Yonggi Cho:
“It is also important to realize that the devil occupies an evil fourth
dimension. God, however, is holy unique and almighty. The fourth dimension is always creating, giving order and carrying out dominion over the third dimension”Despite differences of opinion amongst Christians, is this really what being a Christian is all about?
Question to the CHC folks:
Where does it state in the Bible that our teachers should preach health and wealth?
Please read the question properly:
I am not asking if Jesus was rich, or if Jesus lived in a big house, … I am asking: Where does it say in the bible that church leaders should teach us to pursue material wealth? -
Originally posted by Fugazzi:
The fear of one’s beliefs not holding up to reality is deflected by questioning others so as to avoid seeing or questioning one’s own attachement to a dogma, belief or …..
Eg If I am a Buddhist and hold buddhist beliefs, anyone criticising buddha or … would threaten my sense of self. The criticism of Buddha or .. is merely an excuse. my being defensive says what I am all about and that is, in this instance this: I fear that my sense of self that is being propped up by my attachment to beliefs, dogmas, traditions is questioned.I m not an atheist nor am I a theist,so where do i belong? I will belong somewhere with certainty if i am looking to reaffirm my sense of self or find meaning to my self. AND why would I do that, cos i want to feel secure and add value to my self. I am not secure within. I will latch onto anything outside of me that props me up.Most question, certainly they do, but look for answers and (most likey to reaffirm what has been told to them. They do not question beleifs, traditions, so on so forth and why?
There is another type that questions, – they question and not look for answers but reevaluate, examine and drop what is misleading or erroneous.The third type – simply being aware of …. , cos the latter is a synthesis of inner and outer (inner and outer)
Hence, i reiterate one can be religious and gravitate towards being spiritual. Religion, most are merely pointers to being spiritual. Religion (all) is learning and of course, for the seeker the possibility of it as a device to being spiritual is there. For the follower, if one is sleepwalking – it is nothing but rituals after rituals. Spirituality is unlearning, not collecting, it is unlearning, a process where one unloads all the ’’rubbish’’. True or false all depends on where one is on the spectrum of learning/unleraning/relgion/spirituality.PS – In the straw-clutching stance of being defensive, even this is overlooked: there is a difference bet self-deception and self-delusion!
It doesn't logically follow that my questioning your beliefs is because I am afraid that mine does not hold up. In the first place, whether your beliefs hold up is IRRELEVANT to whether mine holds up or not. Secondly, as far as I know, my beliefs have held up pretty well. There is a rich historical tradition of Christian apologetics so I am practically standing on the shoulders of giants when it comes to defending the faith. So if you wanna question my beliefs, I'd say "Bring it on!" But make sure you agree to defend yours as this is not a one-sided game. Thirdly, is it then true that your refusal to answer my questions is a reflection that your beliefs do not hold up at all? Truth must be defended due to the existence of falsehoods that can seem superficially true to the undiscerning.
You give the wishy washy answers that you are neither an atheist or a theist. Make up your mind what it is. Either God exists or He does not. If you say you don't know, just say you don't know and are an agnostic. How difficult can that be? And if you are truly an agnostic, do you also question your own agnosticism?
You talked about being aware. Aware of what? You left it at a blank. That's as good as a non-answer. True and false does not depend on the individual because truth is objective. You would have to affirm the objectiveness of truth to even deny that truth is objective.
So where does this leave you? Right back at answering the basic questions of life which till now you have been UNABLE to supply the answers from your own existentialistic worldview.
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@James_Tan_1983, U are implying spirituality lah, and most here are prattling on about religion. Till that is reconciled or understood, all in vain!
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Originally posted by Fugazzi:
PS – I m not an atheist nor am I a theist,so where do i belong? I will belong somewhere with certainty if i am looking to reaffirm my sense of self or find meaning to my self. AND why would I do that, cos i want to feel secure and add value to my self. I am not secure within. I will latch onto anything outside of me that props me up
I would reiterate that you belong to the double-minded person who is only as sure as he is unsure, whose certainty rests on the uncertainty of what he claims or thinks to know, who allegiance to what is true is only true insofar as he thinks he has experienced it, regardless of whether it is true or not.
In short, you affirm nothing except your own experience, yet why should your own experience be any guide to the rest of us? Why should any of us believe that you are right? Needless to say you won't defend anything not because you won't but because you can't. And should you even begin to do so you would soon realise that you have deluded yourself into thinking that you have a right hold on thinking about the world.
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Originally posted by BroInChrist:
It doesn't logically follow that my questioning your beliefs is because I am afraid that mine does not hold up. In the first place, whether your beliefs hold up is IRRELEVANT to whether mine holds up or not. Secondly, as far as I know, my beliefs have held up pretty well. There is a rich historical tradition of Christian apologetics so I am practically standing on the shoulders of giants when it comes to defending the faith. So if you wanna question my beliefs, I'd say "Bring it on!" But make sure you agree to defend yours as this is not a one-sided game. Thirdly, is it then true that your refusal to answer my questions is a reflection that your beliefs do not hold up at all? Truth must be defended due to the existence of falsehoods that can seem superficially true to the undiscerning.
You give the wishy washy answers that you are neither an atheist or a theist. Make up your mind what it is. Either God exists or He does not. If you say you don't know, just say you don't know and are an agnostic. How difficult can that be? And if you are truly an agnostic, do you also question your own agnosticism?
You talked about being aware. Aware of what? You left it at a blank. That's as good as a non-answer. True and false does not depend on the individual because truth is objective. You would have to affirm the objectiveness of truth to even deny that truth is objective.
So where does this leave you? Right back at answering the basic questions of life which till now you have been UNABLE to supply the answers from your own existentialistic worldview.
BIC - frankly, u try to be clever, but ur stupidity astounds me lah, i m implying spirituality, it is a subjective expereince, and u are mired in conceptualizing and constipating on them and stuck on definitions! Tell me, can u find spirit? Can u find a Christian heart? U can find a Christian mind - u exemplify this - conditioning. -
As long as it is not experiential in one's living, all talk amounts to lying, and simply quoting the bible, the scriptures means this - no guts to say that i do not know but simply gathering in numbers and affirming each other, in other words, simply propping each other club - in truth, a social affair! For eg, If I have not experienced godliness in myself as an expereince, and me going around asking others to believe is lying to myself and lying to others. If I have not tasted a glass of water and go around spreading lies about me having tasted it and if the other beleives me without tasting it for himself/herself - i am lying so is the other lying>
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Originally posted by James_Tan_1983:
Dear BroInChrist:
Troll??? I fail to see why you have to revert to name calling. It brings up a picture of a five year old hence undermines your credibility.
I agree, entering into a discussion with non-Christians thru a blog is not a productive exercise. Since both parties fundamentally disagree, up to a point where they voice their belief on internet, the only result will be throwing names back and forth. So yes – ignore.
To make the link back to City Harvest Church. It was not my intention to mock, and I apologize if I created the wrong impression. Having said that, I do disagree with many of Kong Hee’s teachings. Disagree would be an overstatement, as I am still to discover any teachings.
What should a church be teaching to its Christian members?
To answer the first question, the Epistles give rather clear and to-the-point instructions what a church and its leader have to teach.Is Kong Hee following the instructions written down in the Epistels?
The answer to that regrettable is “No”. On the contrary, when Paul and his brothers are rebuking the Corinthians and early churches, or warn about false teachers, one almost gets the impression the letters are written with CHC in mind.
1 Cor 14:9 Nevertheless, in church I would rather speak five words with my mind in order to instruct others, than ten thousand words in a tongue...
And if you really need to Speak in Tongues in Church. Max 2 or 3 at the same time, and only if interpreter present.
So what does CHC teach?
It is difficult to identify what CHC is teaching, all seems money centered, and this is definitely does not seem in line with the scriptures.
CHC seems to use a reverse teaching method.
Meaning: Today, Kong Hee sets a target theme "God wants you to prosper" and consequently the Bible is scanned for any verse that seems to underline the target. If the wording fits, the verse is pulled out of its context, words are highlighted, lesson complete.In this example is the verse in
3 John 1:2 Beloved, I pray that you may prosper in all things and be in health (NKJV)Most CHC members have memorised this verse and translated it to
“God wants you to prosper” as this is what KH tought them.
3 John is a letter from John to his friend Gaius who is in bad health. The second verse is nothing but a greeting. If you read the verse in NIV, this becomes more clear:Dear friend, I pray that you may enjoy good health and that all may go well with you (NIV)
The CHC gospel is based on preaching health and wealth using concepts from the metaphysical positive thinking movement, flavoured with bible verses.
International speakers such as seem to be missing the mark completely yet are highly appreciated guests welcomed in CHC every year:
<!--[if !supportLists]-->- <!--[endif]--> Benny Hinn:
“You are a little God on earth running around”<!--[if !supportLists]-->- <!--[endif]--> John Avanzini:
“Jesus was handling big money because that treasurer He had was a thief”<!--[if !supportLists]-->- <!--[endif]-->Steve Munsey:
“Go to the phone, dial the number on the screen as fast as you can. Give $50 dollars a month for 10 months, God will do a now miracle...Wooo! I feel the Holy Spirit...”<!--[if !supportLists]-->- <!--[endif]-->Phil Pringle :
”Great leaders inspire people to give”<!--[if !supportLists]-->- <!--[endif]-->David Yonggi Cho:
“It is also important to realize that the devil occupies an evil fourth
dimension. God, however, is holy unique and almighty. The fourth dimension is always creating, giving order and carrying out dominion over the third dimension”Despite differences of opinion amongst Christians, is this really what being a Christian is all about?
Question to the CHC folks:
Where does it state in the Bible that our teachers should preach health and wealth?
<!--[if !supportLineBreakNewLine]-->
<!--[endif]-->Please read the question properly:
I am not asking if Jesus was rich, or if Jesus lived in a big house, … I am asking: Where does it say in the bible that church leaders should teach us to pursue material wealth?If you were referring me to calling laurence a troll, I think that label is highly appropriate and fitting. So I do not think it is a matter of name-calling. Thus you would note that I did not respond further to his trollish taunts as I do not intend to feed the troll. On the other hand, laurence would be the one guilty of engaging in name-calling because a while back he was cornered and left flabbergasted over the issue of wanting to make proselytising a crime.
I don't think you intend to mock the faith, it was a cautionary note that we do not side with the nonbelievers where some might not exercise restraint in casting the church of God in a bad light.
I am aware of the discomfort (an understatement perhaps) that some believers may have towards Kong Hee's preaching. To share a personal experience, two years ago I attended their Christmas service and I hardly recall the Gospel being preached, yet there and then KH gave the altar call at the end and people went forward (with lots of nudging from the pulpit). To my mind it was more a response to what KH claimed that Christianity can give to believers, rather than a contrite response to of sinners to a holy God.
Bottom line: I am aware of the prosperity gospel and the inroads it has made into the prominent mega churches in Singapore. Yes, we should expose wrong teachings and examine them Biblically and teach the truth. But let's not be seen to be purely fixated on attacking a person, be it a Kong Hee or a Joseph Prince, but more focused on scutinising the doctrines to see if it is in accordance with sound doctrine.
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Originally posted by Fugazzi:
BIC - frankly, u try to be clever, but ur stupidity astounds me lah, i m implying spirituality, it is a subjective expereince, and u are mired in conceptualizing and constipating on them and stuck on definitions! Tell me, can u find spirit? Can u find a Christian heart? U can find a Christian mind - u exemplify this - conditioning.So this is your way of defending yourself, by calling me stupid? Seems you are guilty of the very thing you accuse others of. Duh.
Pray tell in what way have I not exposed what your worldview is all about? Didn't I say that your worldview and idea of what is true basically boils down to what you have personally experienced? If anyone is constipated, it is you who is constipated on your own experiences without regards to the notion of truth. Please don't try to be clever to think you know anything about Christianity, else ironically your stupidity shows. Jesus said to love God with all our MIND, heart, strength and soul. Paul wants us to be renewed in the thinking of our mind. Conditioning? Yes, guilty as charged! Christians should be conditioned in their thinking by God's Truth. I am not ashamed of that.
But lest you be deceived by your own conceit, you are also conditioned. Your mind has been conditioned by those who indoctrinated you with existentiallist ideas. So please don't go round sounding as though you realised some higher truth on your own.
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Existence is a happening and a non-happening it is a paradox, so how to be conditioned? Can one grasp a passing breeze and be conditioned? One can at most experience it and share that expereince, another is free to find out or not find out. Self-deception is sickness!
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Originally posted by Fugazzi:
Existence is a happening and a non-happening it is a paradox, so how to be conditioned? Can one grasp a passing breeze and be conditioned? One can at most experience it and share that expereince, another is free to find out or not find out.
Self-deception is sickness!Again you are shooting pass the target. I am talking about you being conditioned in your thinking lah!
Yes, self-deception is a sickness. Question is, are you self-deceived? Or are you only good at saying others are self-deceived?
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Ps - I share what is existentially possible to partake of for those who are sincere in exploring, finding out, i dont go around lying to myself and lying to others, especially when it is not in my experience.
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Question is, are you self-deceived? I would certainly be, if I simply go on parroting what was never true for me?
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Originally posted by Fugazzi:
Ps – I share what is existentially possible to partake of for those who are sincere in exploring, finding out, i dont go around lying to myself and lying to others, especially when it is not in my experience.
Which begs the question, why should speaking of something not experienced be tantamount to lying to self and others? Please justify such a notion. I have not experienced being dead, so does that mean I am lying to others by warning them that if they cross the road recklessly they will be dead pretty soon?
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Originally posted by Fugazzi:
Question is, are you self-deceived? I would certainly be, if I simply go on parroting what was never true for me?
Which begs the question, on what basis do you judge whether something is true or not? By what you experienced? So doesn't it again boils down to saying that what you experience is true, what you don't ain't? In short, what your net does not catch is not fish?
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@ Fugazzi
You would be surprised how little religion is being conveyed. CHC is using the sense of self, the sense of belonging, inherent in all people to create wealth for a selected few which does not reflect what is the message in the scriptures. Irrespective whether you are/are not a Christian, the CHC teaching seems the opposite of what Christianity is trying to convey.
"Forget self - think of others" is replaced by "Obey me, Give now and you shall receive, in the name of Christ"
CHC leaders are faithfully following the preachings of Norman Vincent Peale and companions, using Christ as a back-up.
Add to that a group of genuine believers who have received a one-sided view of the Bible from a teacher with a "make it up as I go along" background. Et voila, everybody happy.
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Originally posted by BroInChrist:
Which begs the question, on what basis do you judge whether something is true or not? By what you experienced? So doesn't it again boils down to saying that what you experience is true, what you don't ain't? In short, what your net does not catch is not fish?
what utter rubbish and nonsense are you sprouting yet again
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if i were to tell someone that a plate of chicken rice at a particular place is tasty and reality is that i have never tasted it, and if i were to say or repeat what I have heard from another, is this not lying to myself. I have never been there nor tasted it, the other who listens to what i have said may want to find out, explore and that only happens if this particular person is sincere n not about what i have said or .. but being sincere to what he/she is being - attuning to finding what is true/untrue. One can live reality one can simply parrot others and talk ABOUT reality. Playing mind-games and exercising selective deception is so very easy - what one is oblivious to is this - the fear of ignorance is undealt with and latches onto anything that props oneself!
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@James_Tan_1983, I m not against religion but that which pretends to be. Many pretend but the motives sooner or later reveal themselves. Notice one thing - why the numbers matter to a church? Extrpolate and one would see the fallacy and the deception. Sheep needs herding? Lions?
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To BroInChrist:
Scrutinize with sound doctrine - agreed.
I had several personal experiences with CHC, and every single experience showed a complete lack of gospel. Themes solemly evolve around "We are the Church" - "We are your family" - "We are your life" -... - "and we need your money". At one point, they literally projected floating dollar bills (Steve Munsey visit) on the "largest" video screen in Singapore, while the congregation rose to their feet and clapped frantically "In the name of Jesus". How does that match up with sound doctrine?I also had some personal experiences with several CHC members. After a service, most of them are very hyped up, and more than willing to talk. So far, I have not been able to discuss doctrine with any of them. The CHC knowledge of the Bible is poor, and this is the understatement of the year.
Opposite to reality, all of them believe they hold the truth, since all of them have been to Bible school, CHC people I talked to lack any Christian foundation. Questions like: What is an epistle? Why are certain words in the Bible printed in italic? were answered with silence. Never mind trying to ask what Paul meant when he said that we are no longer bound by the law? One CHC actually called it blasphemy until I showed him the verse.
None of the people I talk to was able to discern what is scriptural versus what is make up in the sermons. So how to discuss sound doctrine?
In my experience, the CHC people's belief is based on a "Feel Good" experience ONLY. They felt it -so it must be real. Maybe not the self-deception that Fugazzi was referring to, but nevertheless deception. If one would remove all the videos, music and drama from a CHC service, 90% many CHC'ers would be dissappointed with the service. This says a lot about the mentality.
It is impossible to argue sound doctrine with anybody who does not have a basic understanding of the scriptures nor has the willingess to test the truth. CHC'ers have been taught not to deviate from the CHC teachings. Asking questions is discouraged. This is what the sermons are used for.
Every service, without fail, you will hear KH say: "Don't let anybody hijack your faith (in me)".
FAct of the matter is that if CHC'ers would seek the truth, they might not be CHC'er for long.
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Originally posted by Jacky Woo:
what utter rubbish and nonsense are you sprouting yet again
Dude, if you want to join in, please try to catch up.
The utter rubbish and nonsense you speak of is exactly what Fuzzi is talking about.
See Fuzzi? Even Jacky also say that your beliefs is rubbish and nonsense.
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Originally posted by James_Tan_1983:
@ Fugazzi
You would be surprised how little religion is being conveyed. CHC is using the sense of self, the sense of belonging, inherent in all people to create wealth for a selected few which does not reflect what is the message in the scriptures. Irrespective whether you are/are not a Christian, the CHC teaching seems the opposite of what Christianity is trying to convey.
"Forget self - think of others" is replaced by "Obey me, Give now and you shall receive, in the name of Christ"
CHC leaders are faithfully following the preachings of Norman Vincent Peale and companions, using Christ as a back-up.
Add to that a group of genuine believers who have received a one-sided view of the Bible from a teacher with a "make it up as I go along" background. Et voila, everybody happy.
James, I don't think Fuzzi is interested in what you have to say about CHC and KH at all.
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Originally posted by Fugazzi:
if i were to tell someone that a plate of chicken rice at a particular place is tasty and reality is that i have never tasted it, and if i were to say or repeat what I have heard from another, is this not lying to myself. I have never been there nor tasted it, the other who listens to what i have said may want to find out, explore and that only happens if this particular person is sincere n not about what i have said or .. but being sincere to what he/she is being – attuning to finding what is true/untrue. One can live reality one can simply parrot others and talk ABOUT reality.
Playing mind-games and exercising selective deception is so very easy – what one is oblivious to is this – the fear of ignorance is undealt with and latches onto anything that props oneself!Dude, why is it lying if if I tell others that I heard from Bryan Wong on TV that so-and-so chicken rice is tasty? And so what if I were to repeat this to ten other people? So long as I am not claiming to have eaten it myself, is this lying or self-deception? Not unless you have a fuzzy (pun intended) definition of self-deception!
Can you tell me what is propping you up?
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Originally posted by James_Tan_1983:
To BroInChrist:
Scrutinize with sound doctrine - agreed.
I had several personal experiences with CHC, and every single experience showed a complete lack of gospel. Themes solemly evolve around "We are the Church" - "We are your family" - "We are your life" -... - "and we need your money". At one point, they literally projected floating dollar bills (Steve Munsey visit) on the "largest" video screen in Singapore, while the congregation rose to their feet and clapped frantically "In the name of Jesus". How does that match up with sound doctrine?I also had some personal experiences with several CHC members. After a service, most of them are very hyped up, and more than willing to talk. So far, I have not been able to discuss doctrine with any of them. The CHC knowledge of the Bible is poor, and this is the understatement of the year.
Opposite to reality, all of them believe they hold the truth, since all of them have been to Bible school, CHC people I talked to lack any Christian foundation. Questions like: What is an epistle? Why are certain words in the Bible printed in italic? were answered with silence. Never mind trying to ask what Paul meant when he said that we are no longer bound by the law? One CHC actually called it blasphemy until I showed him the verse.
None of the people I talk to was able to discern what is scriptural versus what is make up in the sermons. So how to discuss sound doctrine?
In my experience, the CHC people's belief is based on a "Feel Good" experience ONLY. They felt it -so it must be real. Maybe not the self-deception that Fugazzi was referring to, but nevertheless deception. If one would remove all the videos, music and drama from a CHC service, 90% many CHC'ers would be dissappointed with the service. This says a lot about the mentality.
It is impossible to argue sound doctrine with anybody who does not have a basic understanding of the scriptures nor has the willingess to test the truth. CHC'ers have been taught not to deviate from the CHC teachings. Asking questions is discouraged. This is what the sermons are used for.
Every service, without fail, you will hear KH say: "Don't let anybody hijack your faith (in me)".
FAct of the matter is that if CHC'ers would seek the truth, they might not be CHC'er for long.
James, I do not dispute what you experienced at CHC. I would even agree with you on most points about Kong Hee and CHC. But then this thread is about the allegations against Kong Hee and the usage of funds so I think we should stick to that. Or perhaps we can agree to deviate from the thread topic and just do an expose on prosperity gospel?