what happen to kong hee dishonesty case?
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Originally posted by Fugazzi:
As long as it is not experiential in one’s living, all talk amounts to lying, and simply quoting the bible, the scriptures means this – no guts to say that i do not know but simply gathering in numbers and affirming each other, in other words, simply propping each other club – in truth, a social affair!
For eg, If I have not experienced godliness in myself as an expereince, and me going around asking others to believe is lying to myself and lying to others.
If I have not tasted a glass of water and go around spreading lies about me having tasted it and if the other beleives me without tasting it for himself/herself – i am lying so is the other lying>So if not experienced, then to talk about something makes you a liar? What dictionary are you using dude? Oops I forgot, you don't subscribe to dictionary definitions, you make up your own definitions. But if so, then invent your own language and grammar and definitions, why use standard English but not employ standard definitions?
Christians do gather to study the Bible and affirm Biblical truths to one another. This you condescendingly call it a social affair. But you are simply sliming that which you have not experienced. But Christians doing it are NOT experiencing it as a mere social affair, so existentially you are REFUTED already.
You want to use the dictionary definition of lying now? OK I play along lor. Of course if you have not tasted water and tell others that you have, that only makes you a liar. But pray tell how does that in itself vouch for the truth of existentialism?
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Sorry if I am not following the intended thread...While waiting for the results of the CAD investigations, I am taking a broader look or different view on the "Dishonesty"
In case of CHC, without waiting for the CAD results, the "dishonest" motives have already revealed themselves. It is amazing to me that people fail to notice.
The experiment of the frog?
"The premise is that if a frog is placed in boiling water, it will jump out, but if it is placed in cold water that is slowly heated, it will not perceive the danger and will be cooked to death"
In normal life, most of the CHC members would answer “no” to the following questions :
When sick, would you bring your child to a doctor without a proper medical degree, or un-accredited internet degree only?
Would you advise your grand-child to give his/her money to a person who has been under suspicion of abuse of funds twice?
Would you give money to a charity organisation who uses 93% (CHC annual report 2009) of the money for internal purposes?
Would you trust a person who stole work, published and sold under his own name, and then blamed his co-workers for oversight?Would you give money to a rich organisation with the promise that God will repay you 30-60-100 fold?
Would you want your daughter to date a person who claimed Jesus appeared on his terrace and spoke to him?
Would you enjoy it when your daughter is giving her full allowance to a rich guru while claiming this person is good and is giving up his life to save her?
Which of the CHC'ers would not answer with "No-of course not" yet all act the opposite.
I deliberately skipped the obvious Christian doctrinal errors – I believe any rational thinking person, Christian or non-Christian, would smell a rat.
How come intelligent people are able to overlook what seems so obvious? It is easy to claim CHC’ers are dumb but this is not my experience. Some of them are quite clever, until the music starts…
Is this self-deception, or is it possible that people were/are being deceived?
How much deception is required to make people believe what is obviously screwed up?
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Originally posted by James_Tan_1983:
Sorry if I am not following the intended thread...While waiting for the results of the CAD investigations, I am taking a broader look or different view on the "Dishonesty"
In case of CHC, without waiting for the CAD results, the "dishonest" motives have already revealed themselves. It is amazing to me that people fail to notice.
The experiment of the frog?
"The premise is that if a frog is placed in boiling water, it will jump out, but if it is placed in cold water that is slowly heated, it will not perceive the danger and will be cooked to death"
In normal life, most of the CHC members would answer “no” to the following questions :
When sick, would you bring your child to a doctor without a proper medical degree, or un-accredited internet degree only?
Would you advise your grand-child to give his/her money to a person who has been under suspicion of abuse of funds twice?
Would you give money to a charity organisation who uses 93% (CHC annual report 2009) of the money for internal purposes?
Would you trust a person who stole work, published and sold under his own name, and then blamed his co-workers for oversight?Would you give money to a rich organisation with the promise that God will repay you 30-60-100 fold?
Would you want your daughter to date a person who claimed Jesus appeared on his terrace and spoke to him?
Would you enjoy it when your daughter is giving her full allowance to a rich guru while claiming this person is good and is giving up his life to save her?
Which of the CHC'ers would not answer with "No-of course not" yet all act the opposite.
I deliberately skipped the obvious Christian doctrinal errors – I believe any rational thinking person, Christian or non-Christian, would smell a rat.
<!--[if !supportLineBreakNewLine]-->
<!--[endif]-->How come intelligent people are able to overlook what seems so obvious? It is easy to claim CHC’ers are dumb but this is not my experience. Some of them are quite clever, until the music starts…
Is this self-deception, or is it possible that people were/are being deceived?
How much deception is required to make people believe what is obviously screwed up?
<!--[if !supportLineBreakNewLine]-->
<!--[endif]-->But I think the problem with your analysis is that for every instance of "dishonesty" you cite, CHCers can think of 100 more that overrides or plays down your cases. In short, the success story of CHC is such that CHCers will not be looking at things objectively. So I think we can only share the areas which disagree with the Bible and pray for the people there to be more discerning.
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One can live reality or one can simply parrot others and talk ABOUT reality.
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@ BroInChrist:
Sadly enough you are right about not looking at things objectively, although I would say - not looking at it at all. To be objective, one must be able (allowed) to see things from different perspectives. Only Ex-CHC'ers are able to do this.
It would be less of an effort to point out the things which are in line with the Bible. Besides proof texting, Bible has no meaning in CHC.
You can call CHC a success story - I would call it a sad case of how to exploit genuine Christians. In the end, it is the CHC members who are left with empty bank accounts. Successful is only KH, as a businessman. Congratulations.
So all we are left to do is pray, and hope that not too many people get lost because of CHC.
I guess discussion closed
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Originally posted by Fugazzi:
One can live reality or one can simply parrot others and talk ABOUT reality.
Your reasoning is fallacious. It is a false dilemma. Why either/or but not both/and? -
Originally posted by Fugazzi:
One can live reality or one can simply parrot others and talk ABOUT reality.
for people like BIC, you can never talk about reality
he is stuck in forum whole day dreaming away
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Two men were by a tree. After a while one climbed up and the other waited underneath the tree. the one who was on the top of tree started plucking mangoes and enjoying it and and at the same time was dropping some for the other man underneath the tree. After a lapse of some time, the one on the top of the three shouted to the one at bottom of the tree that there is a bullock cart approaching and that he could see it. The one below shouted back and told him that he is lying and that he does see any ..... After awhile, the one on the top told him I cannot force u to see what I see, if u are not willing to climb up and see and yet partake of what I am experiencing. Jesus, Krishna, Mohd, Buddha and m an y others were beckoning those masses to make the ascend and that of course entails dropping ..... so as to make the climb easier. Dropping here means dropping all that weighs one down (psychological baggage, psychological hangovers and knowledge). Many simply adopt the stance of being defensive when the possibility of knowing that one is simply stuck and stunting one's spiritual growth is overlooked. One has to grapple with this - one either grows up or grows old. The former can be likened to spiritual growth (knwoing). The latter is that of growing old (knowledge). This seems to be the predicament of MOST who simply believe without going beyond the beliefs. There is no transcedental experiencing at all. Religion (organised) is symbolized by the man underneath the tree. Spirituality is symbolised by the man on the top of the tree. It only makes sense and resonates with one who is sincere and self-honest and that entails asking oneself m i being self-honest about my growth and even than the question of whether it is spiritual or psychological will sooner or later (even when denied) manifest ittself.
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Two men were by a tree. One was on the top of tree plucking mangoes and enjoying it and and at the same time dropping some for the other man underneath the tree. After a lapse of some time, the one on the top of the three shouted to the one at bottom of the tree that there is a bullock cart approaching and that he could see it. The one below shouted back and told him that he is lying and that he does see any ..... After awhile, the one on the top told him I cannot force u to see what I see, if u are not willing to climb up and see and yet partake of what I am experiencing. Jesus, Krishna, Mohd, Buddha and m an y others were beckoning those masses to make the ascend and that of course entails dropping ..... so as to make the climb easier. Dropping here means dropping all that weighs one down (psychological baggage, psychological hangovers and knowledge). Many simply adopt the stance of being defensive when the possibility of knowing that one is simply stuck and stunting one's spiritual growth is overlooked. One has to grapple with this - one either grows up or grows old. The former can be likened to spiritual growth (knwoing). The latter is that of growing old (knowlege). This seems to be the predicament of MOST who simply believe without going beyond the beliefs. There is no transcedental experiencing at all. Religion (organised) is symbolized by the man underneath the tree. Spirituality is symbolised by the man on the top of the tree. It only makes sense and resonates with one who is sincere and self-honest and that entails asking oneself m i being self-honest about my growth and even than the question of whether it is spiritual or psychological will sooner or later (even when denied) manifest ittself
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PS - the man underneath the tree symbolises psychological growth!
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Originally posted by Fugazzi:
Two men were by a tree. One was on the top of tree plucking mangoes and enjoying it and and at the same time dropping some for the other man underneath the tree. After a lapse of some time, the one on the top of the three shouted to the one at bottom of the tree that there is a bullock cart approaching and that he could see it. The one below shouted back and told him that he is lying and that he does see any ….. After awhile, the one on the top told him I cannot force u to see what I see, if u are not willing to climb up and see and yet partake of what I am experiencing. Jesus, Krishna, Mohd, Buddha and m an y others were beckoning those masses to make the ascend and that of course entails dropping ….. so as to make the climb easier. Dropping here means dropping all that weighs one down (psychological baggage, psychological hangovers and knowledge).
Many simply adopt the stance of being defensive when the possibility of knowing that one is simply stuck and stunting one’s spiritual growth is overlooked. One has to grapple with this – one either grows up or grows old. The former can be likened to spiritual growth (knwoing). The latter is that of growing old (knowlege).
This seems to be the predicament of MOST who simply believe without going beyond the beliefs. There is no transcedental experiencing at all. Religion (organised) is symbolized by the man underneath the tree. Spirituality is symbolised by the man on the top of the tree.
It only makes sense and resonates with one who is sincere and self-honest and that entails asking oneself m i being self-honest about my growth and even than the question of whether it is spiritual or psychological will sooner or later (even when denied) manifest ittselfThe fact is, the bloke below has no basis to call the other person a liar simply because he is not on higher ground, period. But I don't see how the above example is any support for existentialism. At most it simply makes the point that one should not make baseless accusations. Oh wait, do I see a self-serving point being made in this analogy? Are you claiming to be the one on top of the tree whereas everyone else is like the man below?
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Originally posted by BroInChrist:
The fact is, the bloke below has no basis to call the other person a liar simply because he is not on higher ground, period. But I don't see how the above example is any support for existentialism. At most it simply makes the point that one should not make baseless accusations. Oh wait, do I see a self-serving point being made in this analogy? Are you claiming to be the one on top of the tree whereas everyone else is like the man below?
True or untrue depends on what one is all about. It is directed for all and if it does not resonate - simply lump it. PS Metaphors, some dont even understand, aiyoh, what else is there to say -
Originally posted by Fugazzi:
True or untrue depends on what one is all about. It is directed for all and if it does not resonate - simply lump it. PS Metaphors, some dont even understand, aiyoh, what else is there to sayWrong. Whether something is true or false does not depend on the individual. The notion that what is true for you but not for me is absurd. But then again, the flaw of existential thought is the setting aside of rational explanation and the emphasis on subjective experience.
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17 Steps to avoid becoming a DISHONEST City Harvest Church member.
I hope people can see the humour of this, and start to think again.
1. Confess to the world that you love Jesus, and intend to follow Him and devote your life to Him. It does not matter if you do not mean it, just saying it will guarantee acceptance from your CHC brothers and sisters.
2. Acquire the skill of speaking in tongues, get water-baptized and claim you feel that your life has been change. Do not pass on any opportunity to claim that your conversion is attributed to Kong Hee only.
3. Attend all CHC services and events. In case you fail to go to service, follow the service on your iPad, iPhone, or Mac Workbook. Consequently post some willy nilly phrases on your facebook to create the impression that you were in church. If you do not own a iPAd or iPhone, pretend to put money in the envelope yet instead use it to purchase this necessity.
4.Use following rules of conduct during worship:
-- Put your face into the “gaze into eternity” mode: practice to perfection in front of the mirror.
-- Raise your hands in devotion: this part is easy ,just follow your neighbour worshipper.
--Sing along with all the songs. If you do not know the words, pretend as the music is so loud that nobody will tell the difference
--Always stand up when asked to do so, and start to clap frantically when Kong Hee releases the “Let’s-give-the-lord-a-clap” command.
-- Wiping away a tear once in a while and sighing every 4 minutes might get you on the video screen. This earns respect from fellow worshippers
-- Shout “Amen”, “Hallelujah”, “Praise the lord”, “Thank you Jesus” or read the words in bold on the screen out loud, when instructed by Kong Hee.
--This is also the time to put your newly acquired “speaking in tongues” into practice. Don't be nervous and do not hold back, just shut down your brain and make it up as you go along. everybody else does. A few beers before service might help.
--Extra devotional points, and guaranteed camera coverage can be obtained by falling to the floor, shaking your body, laughing frantically while yelling “AH-JAYSUS”
--If any first timers stand up next to you, be the first to welcome them to the greatest church in Singapore. If hot and sexy, hug them.
--Always check who is sitting next to you. Ensure you are seated next to good looking fellow members. Chances are, Kong Hee will ask you to hug them, or hold their hand. And when, no need to hold back, give it a good squeeze as Kong Hee has allowed you to do.
5. Every service, make sure you put a large amount of money in the bucket. Make sure that everyone in your vicinity sees you giving money. Try to get camera attention by letting the tears run from your eyes. If you have no money, pretend, the room is too dark for anybody to notice. Better to keep the money for the cellgroup meeting’s offering, so you can boast how generous you are, and avoid being reported to Kong Hee.
6. When listening to Kong Hee, or your CHC friends, occasionally confuse something they say with something that Jesus had said. This will impress them, and they will think highly of you. Or at least you will not be blacklisted yet.
7. Stop reading the Bible. Only read from your notes from CHC Bible school, or the services. Preferably learn following verses by hear, or have page markers, so you can quickly pull them out:
Malachi 3:10
Bring the whole tithe into the storehouse, that there may be food in my house. Test me in this,” says the LORD Almighty, “and see if I will not throw open the floodgates of heaven AND POUR OUT SO MUCH BLESSING THAT THERE WILL NOT BE ROOM ENOUGH TO STORE IT.Joshua 1:8
for then thou shalt make thy way PROSPEROUS, and then thou shalt HAVE GOOD SUCCESSIsaiah 54:17
No weapon that is formed against thee shall PROSPER;3 John 1:2
I wish above all things that thou mayest PROSPER and be in HEALTH, even as thy soul PROSPERETHPhil 4:18
But my God SHALL SUPPLY ALL YOUR NEED ACCORDING TO HIS RICHES …2 Cor 8:9
For ye know the grace of our Lord Jesus Christ, that, though he was RICH (important to stop the verse right here � )Job 8:5,7
and make the habitation of thy righteousness PROSPEROUS. 7 Though thy beginning was small, yet thy latter end should GREATLY INCREASEJob 22:25
Yea, the Almighty shall be thy defence, and thou shalt have PLENTY OF SILVER.Avoid any verses that sound like: suffering of Christ -- Camels going thru needle eyes -- Thou shall be content -- the Son of God had nowhere to lay is head -- Thou shall not add anything to the Word of God -- Only 2 maximum 3 can speak in tongues -- False prophets come with great signs …
and discard all the verses where God kills firstborns, pregnant women, as you have not learned to put them into context, it might damage your gullible spirituality.
8. Regularly quote Kong Hee. This will impress other CHC’ers of your “Biblical” knowledge, even if you do not know squat about theology.
9. Believe in all Kong Hee’s, or CHC guest’s revelations, regardless of how silly they may seem. Even if you do not believe in them, just pretend, same as everybody else.
10. Abandon all sound reason and critical thinking. This is imperative. It is not possible to become an honest CHC member if you question Kong Hee’s teachings with reason or scepticism. This would be the fastest way for you to become a “backslider”.
11. Smile a lot to everyone you see. Say you love them even when you hate them. You must pretend at all costs, to love your worst enemies even if it kills them in the end. This is even more valid towards NCC and FCBC members. See also next point.
12. Attempt to convert your “unbelieving” friends. This means mainstream Christians, as well as NCC and FCBC non-believers. Make an ass out of yourself to the point of getting them angry. Make sure you always keep smiling and tell them how much you love them. This will escalate their anger and leave you fully satisfied. If they persist, claim that they are in league with the Devil and only faith in Jesus can release them (make sure you keep smiling).
13. If anyone presents reasonable arguments against CHC, simply go into denial. Say that their tempting only makes your faith grow stronger. Never submit to them. No worries, after 3 services or so, the Kong Hee mantra “Do not let them hijack your faith” will kick in automatically.
14. If your anybody quotes a verse from the Bible that contradicts Kong Hee’s position, simply say that they're taking that verse out of context. The out-of-context ploy will get you out of many difficult situations and will make it seem that you actually understand the correct context when in fact you don't.
15. Advertise your CHC membership.
Examples: keep a Kong Hee (for the females*) or Sun Ho (for the males*) picture in your wallet or use him as your wallpaper. wear Ed Hardy clothes. * The reverse is not allowed as Kong Hee does not like gay people.16. Marry within the church and send your kids to the free-of charge brainwash sessions in “children’s church. Profess family values. If you catch your hubby cheating on you, never let CHC know. Never get a divorce, regardless of how miserable you both feel. If the news does get out, pray you have money so you can have the Jack Neo treatment.
17. Buy all the "devotional" material that is on offer. Make sure your cell group leader hears about this. If it is Sun Ho developed stuff, buy in 10-fold to ensure extra blessings.
18. The ultimate sacrifice and and all time CHC nr. 1 will always be: Give your possessions away to CHC. The Bible says give all you have to anyone who asks (Luke 6:30). Kong Hee is asking every week to give him all your money, to sell your house, car,… Warning: If you do not do this, you are disobeying a direct Jesus request. However, if you do obey this command, Kong Hee will guarantee you a Christian position and you will garner his greatest esteem and respect until the well dries up.
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I wonder how much kong hee collected from the ang pao from his church people both members and non members. Huat ah forever Kong Hee, forever huat chai, fatt choy!!
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don;t say until like that lah - willing party to part with omney , willing people to take alms
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Originally posted by troublemaker2005:
don;t say until like that lah - willing party to part with omney , willing people to take alms
willing to be conned to give
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Originally posted by troublemaker2005:
don;t say until like that lah - willing party to part with omney , willing people to take alms
well willing means not conned. But ppl dumb enough to give. Not like those buddhist temples where you release fish/birds/animals , only for those to be caught back & later sold to be "release" again. That is mother-fucking fraud!!!!!!!! -
Originally posted by Jazzelbell01:
well willing means not conned. But ppl dumb enough to give. Not like those buddhist temples where you release fish/birds/animals , only for those to be caught back & later sold to be "release" again. That is mother-fucking fraud!!!!!!!!Watch out your words, you will get into trouble. Define mother-fucking fraud.
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I'll say.... burning "money" using real money to buy is really fruad !
I mean who would so stupid to burn money?
And that "hell money" is use real money to buy! What kind of fucking stupid religion is that?
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is it like school holidays or something?
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nah, more like ill mannered a............
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its ok
youth nowadays speak against Indians
put a banner up in NUS with blashphemy against other religions
so common..
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Never kena penalty never know what offence is.
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Originally posted by laurence82:
its ok
youth nowadays speak against Indians
put a banner up in NUS with blashphemy against other religions
so common..
good.............the younger people got balls then S'pore got hope............