Originally posted by Tcmc:1. BIC, take away good works/merit and just by faith/alone, will a christian definitely go to heaven? A christian who does not live a good life, who drinks/smokes/do drugs/ or even murder. Will he still go heaven?
2. Same as #1. Take away good works and just do the faith thing, like the OSAS christians. Do you think they will be saved?
3. AH! Salvation IS "CONDITIONAL!" Yes thats the key word! Conditional! Salvation is conditional, subject to whether the christian live a christ-like life and to live a christ-like life, he/she has to be good!
4. About baptism, like it or not, there are christians who believe baptism IS necessary for salvation.:) Its just that you are not in their camp. If not you will be defending their doctrine too, and with bible verses!
Tcmc,
Am I God? I am not. God will judge His own. I can tell you this, when when the curtain falls on human history there will be many surprises. Those who think they are first will be last, and those who think they are last will be first. Those who think they did all kinds of miracles and called Jesus "Lord Lord" will find themselves being cast out. Again we should not judge anything before the time. We can judge wrong doctrines or beliefs, but each servant of God shall be judged by his Master as to whether he stands or fall. Why do you want to make me take on God's prerogative?
Since when did I say I do not accept the fact that there are Christians who insist that baptism is necessary for salvation? I already said it clearly, whether one believe that or not is IRRELEVANT to the fact that it is commanded and a believer should be baptised as the Lord commanded. A servant does as his master commands, rather than spend time deliberating with fellow servants over the nuances of the commands given. At the end of the day, the master dispenses his judgement and does not give two hoots about the debates raging between his servants. Geddit?
Originally posted by BroInChrist:Tcmc,
Am I God? I am not. God will judge His own. I can tell you this, when when the curtain falls on human history there will be many surprises. Those who think they are first will be last, and those who think they are last will be first. Those who think they did all kinds of miracles and called Jesus "Lord Lord" will find themselves being cast out. Again we should not judge anything before the time. We can judge wrong doctrines or beliefs, but each servant of God shall be judged by his Master as to whether he stands or fall. Why do you want to make me take on God's prerogative?
Since when did I say I do not accept the fact that there are Christians who insist that baptism is necessary for salvation? I already said it clearly, whether one believe that or not is IRRELEVANT to the fact that it is commanded and a believer should be baptised as the Lord commanded. A servant does as his master commands, rather than spend time deliberating with fellow servants over the nuances of the commands given. At the end of the day, the master dispenses his judgement and does not give two hoots about the debates raging between his servants. Geddit?
1. WHy you say so much?
I only telling you what YOU YOURSELF believe. YOU YOURSELF also believe that faith alone is not enough for salvation! If you say faith alone is enough for salvation, then you are an OSAS christian. But are you?
If you believe faith alone is not enough for salvation, then you put your religion on the same level as other religions. Because other religions also teach that faith AND goodworks are all needed for salvation!
2. I have shown you before why belief that baptism is neccessary for salvation is so important.
The Ah Ma case, remember? Like if she cannot get baptised in time because of illness, she will go to hell. That is the case for christianswho believe that baptism is necessary for salvation!
Originally posted by Tcmc:1. WHy you say so much?
I only telling you what YOU YOURSELF believe. YOU YOURSELF also believe that faith alone is not enough for salvation! If you say faith alone is enough for salvation, then you are an OSAS christian. But are you?
If you believe faith alone is not enough for salvation, then you put your religion on the same level as other religions. Because other religions also teach that faith AND goodworks are all needed for salvation!
2. I have shown you before why belief that baptism is neccessary for salvation is so important.
The Ah Ma case, remember? Like if she cannot get baptised in time because of illness, she will go to hell. That is the case for christianswho believe that baptism is necessary for salvation!
Tcmc,
1. I say so much because you err so much. If I don't say much then you will go on misleading people about my views.
2. No you did not show me why baptism is necessary for salvation. No where does the Bible says that failure to be baptised means go to hell. The thief was promised Paradise, remember? Explain why the thief example does not refute your argument. Until now you have completely FAILED to answer me on this.
Originally posted by BroInChrist:Tcmc,
1. I say so much because you err so much. If I don't say much then you will go on misleading people about my views.
2. No you did not show me why baptism is necessary for salvation. No where does the Bible says that failure to be baptised means go to hell. The thief was promised Paradise, remember? Explain why the thief example does not refute your argument. Until now you have completely FAILED to answer me on this.
1. BIC,
Please answer: If a christian has faith/belief in jesus but is not a good christian, will he definitely go to heaven? If your answer is NOT a clear yes, then salavtion in your religion is by faith + good works, which puts it on the same level as most religions.
2. About the paradise verse. I do not want to answer you because you would simply stick to your own interpretation. Many christians cite that "paradise" as a "place" one level lower than heaven, where souls await a second chance for jesus to preach to them again. This, I have shown you the verses that christians use to justify their doctrine of "paradise waiting place". Point is not whether you are right or they are right.
My point regarding interpretation has always been - Christians interpret verses differently and no christian should be 100% sure that they are correct with their interpretation
Originally posted by Tcmc:1. BIC,
Please answer: If a christian has faith/belief in jesus but is not a good christian, will he definitely go to heaven? If your answer is NOT a clear yes, then salavtion in your religion is by faith + good works, which puts it on the same level as most religions.
2. About the paradise verse. I do not want to answer you because you would simply stick to your own interpretation. Many christians cite that "paradise" as a "place" one level lower than heaven, where souls await a second chance for jesus to preach to them again. This, I have shown you the verses that christians use to justify their doctrine of "paradise waiting place". Point is not whether you are right or they are right.
My point regarding interpretation has always been - Christians interpret verses differently and no christian should be 100% sure that they are correct with their interpretation
Tcmc,
1. Why do you insist that I take on the prerogative of God? Define a good Christian now. So you want me to say he is bound for heaven. But 10 days later he did something wrong, then you want me to say he is bound for hell? But then 20 days later he repented and you want me to say he is bound for heaven? Is that what you want me to do? I already stated my stand clearly. You clearly have problems understanding a clear statement of my beliefs!
2. Regarding my Paradise statement, Jesus said that the thief would be WITH JESUS. Regardless of what people may think, wouldn't you agree with me that to be with Jesus is what eternal life is all about? It just shows that now you are raising up objections even when it have no substance. Admit it, you have no refutation at all.
3. Are you 100% sure that no Christian can be 100% sure about what God said? Are you 100% sure that the Bible can never be 100% clear in what it communicates? You are confused about being infallible and being 100% of certain things. The Bible says that the Gospels were written so that one may believe and know he has eternal life. But you are saying that even that clear statement cannot be sure.
Originally posted by BroInChrist:Tcmc,
1. Why do you insist that I take on the prerogative of God? Define a good Christian now. So you want me to say he is bound for heaven. But 10 days later he did something wrong, then you want me to say he is bound for hell? But then 20 days later he repented and you want me to say he is bound for heaven? Is that what you want me to do? I already stated my stand clearly. You clearly have problems understanding a clear statement of my beliefs!
2. Regarding my Paradise statement, Jesus said that the thief would be WITH JESUS. Regardless of what people may think, wouldn't you agree with me that to be with Jesus is what eternal life is all about? It just shows that now you are raising up objections even when it have no substance. Admit it, you have no refutation at all.
3. Are you 100% sure that no Christian can be 100% sure about what God said? Are you 100% sure that the Bible can never be 100% clear in what it communicates? You are confused about being infallible and being 100% of certain things. The Bible says that the Gospels were written so that one may believe and know he has eternal life. But you are saying that even that clear statement cannot be sure.
BIC
1. End of day, you would have to agree with me that christians are bound by faith and works. :) It says so in the bible that faith without deeds is dead! Same - faith and deeds
2. Already showed you verses but you close your eyes and say lalalala
3. My point regarding interpretation has always been - Christians interpret verses differently and no christian should be 100% sure that they are correct with their interpretation
Originally posted by Tcmc:BIC
1. End of day, you would have to agree with me that christians are bound by faith and works. :) It says so in the bible that faith without deeds is dead! Same - faith and deeds
2. Already showed you verses but you close your eyes and say lalalala
3. My point regarding interpretation has always been - Christians interpret verses differently and no christian should be 100% sure that they are correct with their interpretation
Tcmc,
1. I have to disagree. Wrong use of words on your part. Christians are saved by grace ALONE through faith ALONE. The just shall live by faith. Just because faith without works is dead it does not mean that one must do good deeds to be saved. You failed to note the context and meaning of that phrase.
2. You closed your eyes about my thief on the cross verse?
3. My point has always been that Christians do differ in interpretation but one can be 100% sure on SOME issues. This is NOT a claim to infallibility.
Originally posted by BroInChrist:Tcmc,
1. I have to disagree. Wrong use of words on your part. Christians are saved by grace ALONE through faith ALONE. The just shall live by faith. Just because faith without works is dead it does not mean that one must do good deeds to be saved. You failed to note the context and meaning of that phrase.
2. You closed your eyes about my thief on the cross verse?
3. My point has always been that Christians do differ in interpretation but one can be 100% sure on SOME issues. This is NOT a claim to infallibility.
BIC
1. See always like to play with word changing game. Bottom line, you ARE NOT an OSAS christian because you believe both faith and works are necessary for salvation. IF You are an OSAS christian, then I have no case against you!
2. Sure...you are 100% sure because the bible, not because of god, but because the bible is from god. No need to talk about interpretation anymore.
Real world is many interpretations with regards to tongues, healings, baptism ,person of jesus, as I have TRIED to shown you other christians' persepectives
Originally posted by Tcmc:BIC
1. See always like to play with word changing game. Bottom line, you ARE NOT an OSAS christian because you believe both faith and works are necessary for salvation. IF You are an OSAS christian, then I have no case against you!
2. Sure...you are 100% sure because the bible, not because of god, but because the bible is from god. No need to talk about interpretation anymore.
Real world is many interpretations with regards to tongues, healings, baptism ,person of jesus, as I have TRIED to shown you other christians' persepectives
Tcmc,
1. Unlike you who is NOT an atheist but wears the wrong label, I know pretty well what I believe concerning the eternal security issue. By my lights, whether I am OSAS or not I see that you have no case against me at all. You were a believer for how long? 3 months? 1 year?
2. Truly there is little for you to talk about interpretation of the Scripture, seeing that you aren't competent enough to do any interpretation, and simply look confused. Yes, the real world is full of differing interpretations of the Bible, and in this real world I am living in, real debates with real mature Christians is possible and fruitful because we all learn from each other. People like you don't have such benefit because you cop out of the need to dirty your hands to work at it.
Originally posted by BroInChrist:Tcmc,
1. Unlike you who is NOT an atheist but wears the wrong label, I know pretty well what I believe concerning the eternal security issue. By my lights, whether I am OSAS or not I see that you have no case against me at all. You were a believer for how long? 3 months? 1 year?
2. Truly there is little for you to talk about interpretation of the Scripture, seeing that you aren't competent enough to do any interpretation, and simply look confused. Yes, the real world is full of differing interpretations of the Bible, and in this real world I am living in, real debates with real mature Christians is possible and fruitful because we all learn from each other. People like you don't have such benefit because you cop out of the need to dirty your hands to work at it.
BIC,
1. I dont think the period of my religious belief matters...lol. A 1 year christian can know more than a person who has been a christian for 10 years. You always come up with baseless correlations, or try to. But yea, i was a christian for a considerable amt of time, but really, there's no correlation. It does matter if you are an OSAS christian or not.
Because an OSAS christian believes that GRACE ALONE is enough, and that puts his form of christianity at a different level from other religions. To an OSAS christian, good works are not necessary, or even behaving well is not necessary. Because to an OSAS christian, the work on the cross by Jesus was COMPLETE and FINISHED. No other work has to be done. And to an OSAS christian, no matter how bad they are (do drugs, club, drink etc), God's grace alone will save them from hell.
But for you who is opposed to OSAS doctrine, one of your core beliefs is that faith without works might not grant a christian salvation. And your form of christianity is the same as say, islam and sikhism which also require faith and good works for salvation! :)
2. Ya you have to agree with me that christians interpret theverses differently! But it doesnt matter cos you guys will have matured debates!
Anybody knows what were the ethnic groups of Adam and Eve ? And if Adam really lived 930 years, were they really "humans" ?
Originally posted by Demon Bane:Anybody knows what were the ethnic groups of Adam and Eve ? And if Adam really lived 930 years, were they really "humans" ?
TO Jews, adam and eve are characters that are part of Jewish Fables used to teach Jewish children about MORALS.
TO christians, adam and eve are real people in history.
TO muslims, adam and eve were the first muslims.
TO me, they are just story characters that teach us about obedience.
How can a human lived for 930 years?
Originally posted by Demon Bane:How can a human lived for 930 years?
Jews dont believe they were literal people in the Torah.
Muslims and CHristians do believe they were literal people.
Ask the Muslims and Christians.
Originally posted by Demon Bane:Anybody knows what were the ethnic groups of Adam and Eve ? And if Adam really lived 930 years, were they really "humans" ?
Originally posted by Tcmc:TO Jews, adam and eve are characters that are part of Jewish Fables used to teach Jewish children about MORALS.
TO christians, adam and eve are real people in history.
TO muslims, adam and eve were the first muslims.
TO me, they are just story characters that teach us about obedience.
i guess original sin is..incest...right
we all fuck each other brother sister
Originally posted by laurence82:
i guess original sin is..incest...rightwe all fuck each other brother sister
Laurence, you terrible kid
Originally posted by AIex:If humans are descended from Adam and Eve, then who do Adam and Eve's children mate with?
LOL....................according to that sorry excuse for a jokebook called the Bible..............
it was a global massive incestuous orgy...........................
and it happened ...................TWICE...................
AFTER THE GREAT FLOOD........................only Noah and family were alive............
Noah had children with his own daughters........................
heard that one daughter was partial to doggy-style.......................the other preferred spoon......................
LOL......................that farking sick jokebook........................Bible..................LOL
Originally posted by laurence82:
i guess original sin is..incest...rightwe all fuck each other brother sister
wow...didn't know you do that.
thats why I said the bible contradict and lots of paradoxes. its tales are incredibly hard to believe, dunno why people of this day and age still believe in it without any sense of doubt. really unbelievable.
Originally posted by Jacky Woo:thats why I said the bible contradict and lots of paradoxes. its tales are incredibly hard to believe, dunno why people of this day and age still believe in it without any sense of doubt. really unbelievable.
becoz of wishful thinking of a heaven where they can spend their eternal lives
Originally posted by Jacky Woo:thats why I said the bible contradict and lots of paradoxes. its tales are incredibly hard to believe, dunno why people of this day and age still believe in it without any sense of doubt. really unbelievable.
Jacky, you can believe if you want to. God bless you.
Originally posted by Jacky Woo:thats why I said the bible contradict and lots of paradoxes. its tales are incredibly hard to believe, dunno why people of this day and age still believe in it without any sense of doubt. really unbelievable.
Jacky, you still believe in the absurd notion that the universe made itself?
Incest. Since Adam and Eve were able to live for hundreds of years, by then there would be lots of offsprings to further multiply. Be fruitful and multiply.
28 God blessed them and said to them, “Be fruitful and increase in number; fill the earth and subdue it. Rule over the fish in the sea and the birds in the sky and over every living creature that moves on the ground.” Gen 1
3 When Adam had lived 130 years, he had a son in his own likeness, in his own image; and he named him Seth. 4 After Seth was born, Adam lived 800 years and had other sons and daughters. 5 Altogether, Adam lived a total of 930 years, and then he died. Gen 5