The Problem of Evil?
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Originally posted by BroInChrist:
No sin, no evil. To say that good is the corruption of evil is really a corrupted way of viewing good. The Bible says do not call evil good or good evil.
"No sin, no evil."
Paraphrasing you: "Evil" comes from (original)sin. Right?
"To say that good is the corruption of evil is really a corrupted way of viewing good."
^Begging the question... "Evil" is the corruption of "good" so what is "good" without referencing "evil"?
"The Bible says do not call evil good or good evil."
It opens the question of God's omniscience. When :God's omniscience> freewill--->sin--->evil
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Originally posted by Aneslayer:
Epicurus' trilemma
1)if God is unable to prevent evil, he is not omnipotent
- 2)if God is not willing to prevent evil, he is not good
- 3)if God is willing and able to prevent evil, then why is there evil?
Everything was perfect until Eve and Adam took the fruit of knowledge of "good" and "evil". Which meant that "good" and "evil" was existing and was perfect before the original duo knew of it. The 1st thing the realize is that they were naked and they thought it was "evil" so they hid themselves when hearing God.
They became stupid with the knowledge of "good and "evil". What is so wrong about nakedness when they were naked before and they were the only humans around and God is omniscience knowing where they'd hide.
This awareness of guilt caused them to act stupidly. This sense of guilt I believe is the sin, contrary to conventionally believed.The hypothesis above is based on the dilemma I had with the existence of "good" and "evil" and their deduced "existence" before the fall. What is "good" without reference to "evil" and what is "evil" without reference to "good". It became clear to me that "good" and "evil" is nothing but subjectivity of humans.
Epicurus's trilemma setups with this subjectivity of "evil".
Sidenote: freewill is a myth.
With all the quotes " " everywhere, you might as well say "freewill" is a "myth" and throw everything up for grabs for people to interpret as they like.
Of course no where does the Bible defines sin as a sense of guilt. Some people have their conscience seared and sin with impunity with no sense of guilt. So is sense of guilt the sin? Not according to the Bible. It is the act of rebellion that is sin, which is missing the mark of God's standard of moral perfection.
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Originally posted by BroInChrist:
So you truly believe that God tolerates and condones evil?
If so, why did Jesus (who is God in the flesh) have to die? Oh, to be sure I was referring to MY Jesus that died for the sins of the world, according to the Scriptures as in 1 Cor 15.
Not too sure about YOUR Jesus though and what he did.
"So you truly believe that God tolerates and condones evil?"
"...evil was created by Adam's act of biting the fruit or disobedience and God tolerated this evil thus condones it...." was paraphrasing your: "Evil cannot be created, anymore than good can. Evil is the corruption of that which is good. Neither can good be created, for if it can, then to say God is good would be most queer. The Bible says that ALL of God's creation was very good by the end of creation week. And had God condoned evil He would not have judged the man, the woman, the serpent, and cursed the universe." "Evil cannot be created" means it was and had been there. Which means it was there before judgement. Is that what you were trying to say?
"If so, why did Jesus (who is God in the flesh) have to die? Oh, to be sure I was referring to MY Jesus that died for the sins of the world, according to the Scriptures as in 1 Cor 15.
Not too sure about YOUR Jesus though and what he did."
Yup... BIC poisoning the well again... Yes Jesus have to die for the our sins. Sin still exist. Jesus was among the sinners, though he is sinless.
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Originally posted by BroInChrist:
With all the quotes " " everywhere, you might as well say "freewill" is a "myth" and throw everything up for grabs for people to interpret as they like.
Of course no where does the Bible defines sin as a sense of guilt. Some people have their conscience seared and sin with impunity with no sense of guilt. So is sense of guilt the sin? Not according to the Bible. It is the act of rebellion that is sin, which is missing the mark of God's standard of moral perfection.
"With all the quotes " " everywhere, you might as well say "freewill" is a "myth" and throw everything up for grabs for people to interpret as they like."
Its still up as indeed they are up to interpretations as they have not been appropriately defined. So what is "good" without referencing to "evil" and vice versa?
"Of course no where does the Bible defines sin as a sense of guilt. Some people have their conscience seared and sin with impunity with no sense of guilt. So is sense of guilt the sin? Not according to the Bible. It is the act of rebellion that is sin, which is missing the mark of God's standard of moral perfection. "
Misinterpretation: implying that I said sense of guilt = sin... I call strawman.
God is perfection. God's creation is perfect. If its not, it opens the question to God's omniscience. -
Originally posted by Aneslayer:
"No sin, no evil."
Paraphrasing you: "Evil" comes from (original)sin. Right?
"To say that good is the corruption of evil is really a corrupted way of viewing good."
^Begging the question... "Evil" is the corruption of "good" so what is "good" without referencing "evil"?
"The Bible says do not call evil good or good evil."
It opens the question of God's omniscience. When :God's omniscience> freewill--->sin--->evil
Where there is no sin, there is no evil to speak of.
Do you judge what is crooked by what is straight, or do you call something straight with reference to that which is cooked? It is not me begging the question but you again playing daft. God IS good. You don't judge the goodness of God by looking at evil or referencing evil. God always existed. Not evil. I shudder to think what kind of theology you hold to, if any.
The Bible teaches God's omniscience. Call it into question if you like, but that the Bible teaches it is unquestionable.
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Originally posted by Aneslayer:
"So you truly believe that God tolerates and condones evil?"
"...evil was created by Adam's act of biting the fruit or disobedience and God tolerated this evil thus condones it...." was paraphrasing your: "Evil cannot be created, anymore than good can. Evil is the corruption of that which is good. Neither can good be created, for if it can, then to say God is good would be most queer. The Bible says that ALL of God's creation was very good by the end of creation week. And had God condoned evil He would not have judged the man, the woman, the serpent, and cursed the universe." "Evil cannot be created" means it was and had been there. Which means it was there before judgement. Is that what you were trying to say?
"If so, why did Jesus (who is God in the flesh) have to die? Oh, to be sure I was referring to MY Jesus that died for the sins of the world, according to the Scriptures as in 1 Cor 15.
Not too sure about YOUR Jesus though and what he did."
Yup... BIC poisoning the well again... Yes Jesus have to die for the our sins. Sin still exist. Jesus was among the sinners, though he is sinless.
You failed to get what I was trying to say. Evil is not a thing to be created. The same with good. Good is not a thing to be created. God IS good. If good is a thing to be created, then it means God is created since God is good. But God is eternal. Everything that God does flows from that goodness in Him. The free will that God endowed His creation with is also good. See http://www.gotquestions.org/did-God-create-evil.html
As to poisoning wells, I think you are much better at it than me. Anyway, where did you get your idea that Jesus have to die for our sins? The Bible? The Scriptures? Which one? Duh....
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Originally posted by Aneslayer:
"With all the quotes " " everywhere, you might as well say "freewill" is a "myth" and throw everything up for grabs for people to interpret as they like."
Its still up as indeed they are up to interpretations as they have not been appropriately defined. So what is "good" without referencing to "evil" and vice versa?
"Of course no where does the Bible defines sin as a sense of guilt. Some people have their conscience seared and sin with impunity with no sense of guilt. So is sense of guilt the sin? Not according to the Bible. It is the act of rebellion that is sin, which is missing the mark of God's standard of moral perfection. "
Misinterpretation: implying that I said sense of guilt = sin... I call strawman.
God is perfection. God's creation is perfect. If its not, it opens the question to God's omniscience.To know what is good you look at God, not the devil. To know the Truth you look at Jesus, not Satan. So what is this nonsense about referencing good to evil? Again I wonder where you get your theology from, the Bible or the dictionary.
Well, you did write, "This sense of guilt I believe is the sin, contrary to conventionally believed." So why would it be a misinterpretation on my part?
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Originally posted by Aneslayer:
That would mean evil was created by Adam's act of biting the fruit or disobedience and God tolerated this evil thus condones it....
No, evil cannot be created.
Non-Diametrical model...
"Dia" = in 2 directions (eg. Dialogue, Diameter)
"Metric" = measurement
Diametric = measurable in 2 directions. +10/ -10 relationship.
Non-diametric = not measured in 2 directions.
Stationary-ness cannot be meaured. (How still is it?) It is the blank state. Therefore based on this model, evil cannot be created anymore than stationary-ness can be created. It is the blank state.
Evil is simply the rejection of God, rejection of light, rejection of love, rejection of truth. (can substitute "rejection" with "absence of")
Before Adam, there was Lucifer who became Satan. He rejected God and rejected light (hence darkness is associated with Satan, and he's also called the "father of lies" since there is no truth in him)
Adam rejected the truth in a way since God's instruction is also truth.
Opposite of love isn't hate. It's apathy. So the diametric model explains it quite well.
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Originally posted by BroInChrist:
Where there is no sin, there is no evil to speak of.
Do you judge what is crooked by what is straight, or do you call something straight with reference to that which is cooked? It is not me begging the question but you again playing daft. God IS good. You don't judge the goodness of God by looking at evil or referencing evil. God always existed. Not evil. I shudder to think what kind of theology you hold to, if any.
The Bible teaches God's omniscience. Call it into question if you like, but that the Bible teaches it is unquestionable.
"Where there is no sin, there is no evil to speak of."
Meaning: "evil" comes from sin. Correct?
"Do you judge what is crooked by what is straight, or do you call something straight with reference to that which is cooked?"
So try defining "good" without referencing to "evil" and vice versa.
" It is not me begging the question but you again playing daft."
No you misunderstood. "To say that good is the corruption of evil is really a corrupted way of viewing good." is really begging the question where you concluded "good is the corruption of evil is really a corrupted way of viewing good" because "it is really a corrupted way of viewing good."
" God IS good. You don't judge the goodness of God by looking at evil or referencing evil. God always existed. Not evil. I shudder to think what kind of theology you hold to, if any."
Yes God is "good", always existed. God is perfect regardless of moral opinions. That doesn't answer "if God is ominscience and cannot allow "evil", why "evil" still is?"
"The Bible teaches God's omniscience. Call it into question if you like, but that the Bible teaches it is unquestionable."
So end of discussion? Without even defending God's omniscience... omnipotence. You understood the implied axioms of this thread right? If its unquestionable to you why are you here?
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BIC
Aiya some things just exist. There's no need to go and find out the reason why every single atom exists on this planet or this universe.
I am satisfied with not knowing some answers.
If you find the need to KNOW EVERYTHING, there's a problem with pride!
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Originally posted by Aneslayer:
"Where there is no sin, there is no evil to speak of."
Meaning: "evil" comes from sin. Correct?
"Do you judge what is crooked by what is straight, or do you call something straight with reference to that which is cooked?"
So try defining "good" without referencing to "evil" and vice versa.
" It is not me begging the question but you again playing daft."
No you misunderstood. "To say that good is the corruption of evil is really a corrupted way of viewing good." is really begging the question where you concluded "good is the corruption of evil is really a corrupted way of viewing good" because "it is really a corrupted way of viewing good."
" God IS good. You don't judge the goodness of God by looking at evil or referencing evil. God always existed. Not evil. I shudder to think what kind of theology you hold to, if any."
Yes God is "good", always existed. God is perfect regardless of moral opinions. That doesn't answer "if God is ominscience and cannot allow "evil", why "evil" still is?"
"The Bible teaches God's omniscience. Call it into question if you like, but that the Bible teaches it is unquestionable."
So end of discussion? Without even defending God's omniscience... omnipotence. You understood the implied axioms of this thread right? If its unquestionable to you why are you here?
Doesn't it ever occur to you that to speak of evil "coming from" sin is incorrect? Consider how 1 Kings 16:19 puts it thus, "because of the sin he committed by doing what was evil in the Lord’s sight and by following the example of Jeroboam and the sin he caused Israel to commit."
I already defined good, you failed to read. God IS good. To know God is to know Good. Does God's goodness depend on Satan? Yes or No?
God's omniscience and omnipotence is clearly taught in Scripture, what do you really want to defend anyway? Every attack on God's attributes will fail inevitably. The existence of evil does not call into question God's omnipotence and omniscience. Why does evil exist is not to be answered by impugning the attributes of God, certainly not for the Christian who wants to give a Biblical answer.
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Originally posted by Tcmc:
BIC
Aiya some things just exist. There's no need to go and find out the reason why every single atom exists on this planet or this universe.
I am satisfied with not knowing some answers.
If you find the need to KNOW EVERYTHING, there's a problem with pride!
Then why don't you accept that God just exist? Why you need the Christian to tell you all the answers to your questions before concluding that He does? Your pride?
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Originally posted by BroInChrist:
Then why don't you accept that God just exist? Why you need the Christian to tell you all the answers to your questions before concluding that He does? Your pride?
Some answers we know, some we don't know. Like I really don't know if there's a Being out of our universe. But I know that the christian god (as described by christians and the bible) is quite impossible. :)
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Originally posted by Tcmc:
Some answers we know, some we don't know. Like I really don't know if there's a Being out of our universe. But I know that the christian god (as described by christians and the bible) is quite impossible. :)
Then you are simply being arbitrary in what you want to accept or reject.
And why would it be impossible that the Christian God exists? Why could there not be something that you don't know, which if you had known, would have changed your conclusion? The point is that you don't know everything to say that God is impossible.
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Originally posted by BroInChrist:
Then you are simply being arbitrary in what you want to accept or reject.
And why would it be impossible that the Christian God exists? Why could there not be something that you don't know, which if you had known, would have changed your conclusion? The point is that you don't know everything to say that God is impossible.
BIC
Many of us have tried to show you many things regarding the existence of the Deity you mentioned. But well, you still chosoe to believe, i respect that.
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Originally posted by Tcmc:
BIC
Many of us have tried to show you many things regarding the existence of the Deity you mentioned. But well, you still chosoe to believe, i respect that.
Likewise I respect your choice to still believe that nothing created everything, even after I have tried to show you many things that point to God's existence. -
Originally posted by BroInChrist:
Likewise I respect your choice to still believe that nothing created everything, even after I have tried to show you many things that point to God's existence.I have tried to explain to you that god was invented by men out of ignorance, fear and wishful thinking, but you still chose to believe, so what can I do
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Originally posted by Tcmc:
Some answers we know, some we don't know. Like I really don't know if there's a Being out of our universe. But I know that the christian god (as described by christians and the bible) is quite impossible. :)
do you think there is a supernatural being that answers prayers but then doesnt change the misery and suffering of the people.
regarding prayers, how many percentage do you think the prayers have been answerd?
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Originally posted by Tcmc:
Some answers we know, some we don't know. Like I really don't know if there's a Being out of our universe. But I know that the christian god (as described by christians and the bible) is quite impossible. :)
take a listen to Lawrence Krauss A Universe from Nothing
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9urEFoaI1iY&feature=related
So the void in the nothingness of nothing is actually not devoid of un-nothingness: while nothing looks like nothing, nothing is actually not nothing, and conversely, not nothing is nothing, since nothing like anti-thing doesn't exist within the nothing of nothingness, and this is not nothing.
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Lawrence M. Krauss: Before and After the Universe
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J0I1la9fFFw&feature=related
Theoretical physicist Professor Lawrence M. Krauss discusses how investigating dark matter can shed light on the geometry of our universe, and what this means for our understanding of its origins and demise.
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Originally posted by Jacky Woo:
do you think there is a supernatural being that answers prayers but then doesnt change the misery and suffering of the people.
regarding prayers, how many percentage do you think the prayers have been answerd?
Hi Jacky
WHat i read before is only 1% of prayers are "answered".
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Originally posted by Tcmc:
Hi Jacky
WHat i read before is only 1% of prayers are "answered".
how can something that doesnt exists answered 1% prayers
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Originally posted by Jacky Woo:
how can something that doesnt exists answered 1% prayers
Jacky
That is why i put quotation marks. "Answered" means by coincidence these prayers get "answered".
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Originally posted by BroInChrist:
*Yawn*Choi lei dou sor
Denial, you follower of Satan!