Can WO take up commission officer appointments?
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hi, i am newbie! saw this forum via sggirls
expansive forum! (and strange i haven't clicked even though i saw the link since long time ago...)
was chitchatting with a friend who is regular in the navy and heard fm him in the future warrant officers can take up appointments only reserved for officers (eg Section Head with perhaps Staff Officers under him). have ORDed for 5 yrs.... compared to last time i think navy become quite dynamic in terms of job challenges... what with the coming of the new frigates..
also, some regulars got degree but still opt to stay in the service... i think in the future will have a lot of degree holder warrant officers but for new, the highest quali accepted for specs and WO i think is still diploma... wonder than why some with degree want to stay on...
any comments?? -
Warrant Officers may hold Section Head/DY Branch Head appointments with junior officers under them, provided they are qualified enough, with a good ROA and undergone some advanced leaderhsip and staff writing training.I support this scheme because we can really tap into the knowledge and long experience of these WOs.
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all pc's , 2ic's and oc's in sispec are warrant officers
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Can....
Technically speaking, a 2LT is almost the same as 2WO, LTA to 1WO and CPT to SWO
I heard tt from somewhere.... 
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of course warrant officers can take up commision officers' appointment, like PC, 2IC or OC, for example in SISPEC.
but the question now is can warrant officers convert/promote to commission officers?
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In my unit, its a recent thing, my OC insist newly commissioned officers and OCTs go down and do repair works together with the specs and warrants.
Then afterwhich, when they took over some postions like PCs and 2ICs, they are usually mentored by the WOs...
And i can say its really a good idea, the new officers performed way better than last batches of officers.. -
Hmm....which unit? GSMB?Originally posted by laurence82:In my unit, its a recent thing, my OC insist newly commissioned officers and OCTs go down and do repair works together with the specs and warrants.
Then afterwhich, when they took over some postions like PCs and 2ICs, they are usually mentored by the WOs...
And i can say its really a good idea, the new officers performed way better than last batches of officers.. -
This should be the way.Skills and specialisation should come first, only then can one gain any modicum of respect.Furthermore, if the men see their boss working alongside them, they will have a nicer opinion of the latter.Originally posted by laurence82:In my unit, its a recent thing, my OC insist newly commissioned officers and OCTs go down and do repair works together with the specs and warrants.
Then afterwhich, when they took over some postions like PCs and 2ICs, they are usually mentored by the WOs...
And i can say its really a good idea, the new officers performed way better than last batches of officers..
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i must be quite outdated...
So in fact now the army recognises the warrant officers as sort of subject matter experts and they can hold the officer appointments. then i think SAF should also up the quali benchmark eg recognising the degree (if any) held by the warrant officers, either in pay package or rocketed roa
but i guess, then it would somehow blur the line between commissioned officers and WOs... imagine a diploma MAJ and degree holder WO taking up same appt...
I think it would be difficult for WO who perform to become commissioned... quite physically tiring for the enciks to go through OCS and then upon comissioning... become LTA.... LOL... they would be better off as a WO, where they act as experienced advisers.. -
yeah, it was good tho..no more fantastics time wasting ideas from officers...no more fanciful policies people cant follow..and u communicate better, because they picked up the going-ons faster..Originally posted by LazerLordz:This should be the way.Skills and specialisation should come first, only then can one gain any modicum of respect.Furthermore, if the men see their boss working alongside them, they will have a nicer opinion of the latter. -
Oh yea. it's true.Originally posted by LazerLordz:This should be the way.Skills and specialisation should come first, only then can one gain any modicum of respect.Furthermore, if the men see their boss working alongside them, they will have a nicer opinion of the latter.
Sometimes, if you work in a line such as maintenace which requires you to have adequate engineering and technical knowledge, you will definitely be overwhelmed. Definitely not easy for a 2LT/LTA to take up the PC of a maintenance platoon unless you have first hand experience working/learning them -
For a 1WO to crossover to a CPT grade 1 is not very attractive, for his ROA is cut short by ten years and he may even have to realignment himself with a new career path and start from a level slightly below his own experience.If you think about it, a WO of high calibre might become MWO or SWO.Compare the numbers of such WOs and the number of MAJs and LTCs in the force.It's much more of an honor and testimony of your experience in the force to be MWO or SWO.Rank is not such a big issue when you are in your late 40s and early-mid 50s.It's more of your working experience and how people see you and value your contributions to the force.Better to be Army RSM than one MAJ out of many in the SAF.Originally posted by Shrapnel:i must be quite outdated...
So in fact now the army recognises the warrant officers as sort of subject matter experts and they can hold the officer appointments. then i think SAF should also up the quali benchmark eg recognising the degree (if any) held by the warrant officers, either in pay package or rocketed roa
but i guess, then it would somehow blur the line between commissioned officers and WOs... imagine a diploma MAJ and degree holder WO taking up same appt...
I think it would be difficult for WO who perform to become commissioned... quite physically tiring for the enciks to go through OCS and then upon comissioning... become LTA.... LOL... they would be better off as a WO, where they act as experienced advisers.. -
Hmmm, for the above, I've heard of a no. of cases b4
And yea, the cutting short of ROA aint attractive. -
x2Originally posted by deathscythe99:Oh yea. it's true.
Sometimes, if you work in a line such as maintenace which requires you to have adequate engineering and technical knowledge, you will definitely be overwhelmed. Definitely not easy for a 2LT/LTA to take up the PC of a maintenance platoon unless you have first hand experience working/learning them
That TAT and maintenance hours requirement is crap. The hours stated can be achieved only under perfect conditions, such as given proper tools, no disturbance, proper time management by higher ups and no other time wasting paperwork and activities.
But its not possible realistically. And i really hate to see my warrants fighting for us men, with the S3 demanding why we are not keeping to time schedule as stated (pardon me i forgot the term for the book they have for maintenance hours requirement for each kind of repairs)
But the officers who came down to work with us are NSFs officers with coy level positions. That eases a lot of pressure from coy hq, as they understand what is seriously the problem and work ard to solve them.
But that didnt stave off the unreasonable demand from the battalion S3. -_-!
Anyway, for those of u who know, i came from a unit where they at one point in time, have three female CPTs as S1, S3 and S4. -
Lotsa targets set by the Army are only acheivable under in laboratory-like settings.What is needed is a favourable and acceptable level of outstanding items and a way to account for them.
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The term is MAC = Maint. Allocation Chart.Originally posted by laurence82:x2
That TAT and maintenance hours requirement is crap. The hours stated can be achieved only under perfect conditions, such as given proper tools, no disturbance, proper time management by higher ups and no other time wasting paperwork and activities.
But its not possible realistically. And i really hate to see my warrants fighting for us men, with the S3 demanding why we are not keeping to time schedule as stated (pardon me i forgot the term for the book they have for maintenance hours requirement for each kind of repairs)
But the officers who came down to work with us are NSFs officers with coy level positions. That eases a lot of pressure from coy hq, as they understand what is seriously the problem and work ard to solve them.
But that didnt stave off the unreasonable demand from the battalion S3. -_-!
Anyway, for those of u who know, i came from a unit where they at one point in time, have three female CPTs as S1, S3 and S4.
And I think I know which unit you are talking about...
Well, it really is sad to know that ppl havent realised the problem which is INHERENT in the system in the first place. Talk about achieving TAT and the like. But what were the conditions when they did such calculations? That wasnt put into consideration.
When the commanders ask the PCs and PSes about why they have not achieved target, answers are standard, and replies come as fast as homing rockets are to planes. -
There is a way to go round the problem oneOriginally posted by LazerLordz:Lotsa targets set by the Army are only acheivable under in laboratory-like settings.What is needed is a favourable and acceptable level of outstanding items and a way to account for them.
Understand the system, and know how to go round it -
duplicated.
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Well, to have a military unit tasked with a commercial goal and vision, it is a no-win situation for planners and people on the ground alike.Economically, we are losing money in the strictest fiscal sense, but this is overweighed by the fact the maintenance units are first and foremost designed to suppor our forces in war.Problem is, peacetime philosophy impacts greatly on mission due more weight being given to commercial considerations like productivity of a high and unrealistic standard, which can only be reached within its goals by out-sourcing, which ultimately might impair the unit's performance in actual wartime scenarios.But hey, we shall pray that war does not break out yeah?
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ROA cut short by ten years? it means you retire at an older age as WO? then that changes the whole story.... even if the WO have mba i think he would have chosen to stay as WOOriginally posted by LazerLordz:For a 1WO to crossover to a CPT grade 1 is not very attractive, for his ROA is cut short by ten years and he may even have to realignment himself with a new career path and start from a level slightly below his own experience.If you think about it, a WO of high calibre might become MWO or SWO.Compare the numbers of such WOs and the number of MAJs and LTCs in the force.It's much more of an honor and testimony of your experience in the force to be MWO or SWO.Rank is not such a big issue when you are in your late 40s and early-mid 50s.It's more of your working experience and how people see you and value your contributions to the force.Better to be Army RSM than one MAJ out of many in the SAF. at that age, got family liao and kids prob. studying, need $$$$...
still, there is no carrot for WO with degree, so that sort of encourage specs who are staying not to upgrade... :p cannot use mah, so why waste money and time, unless for personal aspirations...
nowadays is there sort of a partnership existing between the 3 grps.. i mean the specs, WOs and officers. do they now work as a collaboration (parallel) or still more of a top down? saw the post regarding the maintenance seems quite confusing... apparently S3 is barking from the top and then some NSF officers working parallel with WO/spec.. :p -
Maintenance units operate slightly differently in terms of unit culture and mission statement.They are just that slightly more oriented towards a customer-first culture and behave somewhat as a military-run entity with commercial-like goals.Productivity and efficiency is championed but the biggest stumbling block to lofty ideals is the fact that you cannot expect private-sector performance from "employees" who are paid peanuts.NSF officers are closer to the WOSEs because they are often of the same age as the guys.Rank and hierarchy closer to the WOs than the PSOs, plus the fact that they are new and need mentoring.
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yah, peacetime means no way of benchmarking... without actual war the benchmark now is only ISO, competition among various units, and up the image in local regions. SAF always highly regarded by analysts from other countries so in a way, the image portrayal is successful...Originally posted by LazerLordz:Well, to have a military unit tasked with a commercial goal and vision, it is a no-win situation for planners and people on the ground alike.Economically, we are losing money in the strictest fiscal sense, but this is overweighed by the fact the maintenance units are first and foremost designed to suppor our forces in war.Problem is, peacetime philosophy impacts greatly on mission due more weight being given to commercial considerations like productivity of a high and unrealistic standard, which can only be reached within its goals by out-sourcing, which ultimately might impair the unit's performance in actual wartime scenarios.But hey, we shall pray that war does not break out yeah?
but outsourcing is risky business.... i suppose the only partner would be ST (SG technologies). Their passion is in profits, not in defending. so when actual war comes, can they be depended to provide the highest readiness in logistics support?
i pray hope no war too.. and unlikely in these days when war is waged on the economic front -
You've hit the nail on the head.Outsourcing is good for peacetime, but when war comes, do we have the critical mass required to sustain the supporting operations we have to give to the warm bodies in the field so that they might remain warm and not turn stiff an cold?Best way to balance both demands might be to create a partnership with our military engineers and their commercial equivalent.Or improve the instructional methods and up the educational requirements of regulars so that each person can subsume more than one role and be a "hub" from which OMers in the field can turn to and learn instead of having too many junior SMES running around with nothing to do in peacetime.Originally posted by Shrapnel:yah, peacetime means no way of benchmarking... without actual war the benchmark now is only ISO, competition among various units, and up the image in local regions. SAF always highly regarded by analysts from other countries so in a way, the image portrayal is successful...
but outsourcing is risky business.... i suppose the only partner would be ST (SG technologies). Their passion is in profits, not in defending. so when actual war comes, can they be depended to provide the highest readiness in logistics support?
i pray hope no war too.. and unlikely in these days when war is waged on the economic front -
So many OC estab is filled up by WOs. My upperstudy's upperstudy is a MWO. Everyday kena tekan sia by him. Sometimes become kopi kia for him. But he really taught him well. When it was time for him to leave, i heard he ask the then TRADOC commander and his PSOs to witness the handover and saluted my 2 x upperstudy(a fresh 3 months old 2LT) at the end of it all. So cute
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i dun understand... what upperstudy's upperstudy... ?Originally posted by Master -_-:So many OC estab is filled up by WOs. My upperstudy's upperstudy is a MWO. Everyday kena tekan sia by him. Sometimes become kopi kia for him. But he really taught him well. When it was time for him to leave, i heard he ask the then TRADOC commander and his PSOs to witness the handover and saluted my 2 x upperstudy(a fresh 3 months old 2LT) at the end of it all. So cute
actually up to MWO is quite a respectable rank. should be about CPT equivalent, although officially a SWO rank is still of lower rank than 2LT. I guess that is why the MWO saluted the 2LT then..
I saw before during a NO.1 parade the SWO typically yell and screw the 2LTs who were marching with the colors... no give face.. things should change. i mean its time specs WOs and Officers work collaboratively in a parallel partnership fashion rather than top down.
All are human beings... if treated properly I sincerely believe everyone will put in their best. Even if a spec decides to leave the service, the commitment and drive to excel will prepare him for the outside world, so nothing to lose at all. I knew a spec then who was a highly motivated person and was well liked by his peers and officers. even though he planned to leave the service, his commander was willing to make an effort to land him a job via his personal contacts! cool