Armour unit
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I won't feel good about it. The only blood that should be on my hands is the blood of the people whom I should be trying to save (I'm a medic).Originally posted by SpecOps87:But still,you guys are not answering the essential part of my post.Will you aim at and fire at a fellow Muslim knowing very surely that your weapon is loaded with LIVE ammunition which is able to kill and maim?
So as I said,the Million Dollar question is,will you be shoot at them?Fellow Muslims,although I do agree that it is never a good feeling to kill a fellow human being regardless of race,language,religioun or nationality.But when the need arises,and you have been assigned to do such a duty,will you perform the way you have been trained?
However, one thing still stands: I will not stand by and do nothing while those Muslims are trying to kill and maim me, my family and my friends.
If I have to aim at them and pull the trigger to stop it, then, well, I'll do it. -
Thank You Fudgester for giving your honest to heart answer.
What bout the other malays? -
Originally posted by SpecOps87:Thank You Fudgester for giving your honest to heart answer.
What bout the other malays?
i got give already rite...y never thank me....hehehehe..... 
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it shows up in my radar clearly as i have replied earlier in this topic...thats y i didnt generalise...
No, I'm Chinese. I just took exception to that specific remark, & IMO itwon't help the community to get thus slighted if more people thought like that.
kudos to people like that in the service...
we're talking abt the the society...
i'm not saying anything...but are u malay?
if yes...i rest my case cos malays got different views on topics like this and u are one of the impressive cases and respect to u from me......
if no...grow up in a malay society and u'd understand...
thats y i said earlier in this topic that there are 2 kinds of malays...those that are very impressive like the ones u have given in ure reply....
and those that couldnt be bothered....
no in between one...i stress it again......
thank you for giving such good examples of impressive malays.....and i am not meaning to be sarcastic...its nice that there are people are giving examples like that than giving exaples like 'Would u malays kill a malay enemy'....
I'm cognizant enough to know where the Malays are coming from. Fact is, their earlier generation of baby-boomers, nee born between '46 & '55 or so, ended up completely alienated, & it's this context that politicians refer to when they talk about "reintegrating into society."
Beyond their control was the "forced" urbanization that began in the '60s, along with the Chinese squatters as the HDB geared up its flat building (20,000 in '60; over 200,000 by '75) due to the Bukit Ho Swee fires. Then came the emotional Separatism from Malaysia, followed by the British withdrawal in the early '70s (which Tim Huxley said 20% of the Malay population worked for).
But they were also, at best, left to fend for themselves &, at worst, actively discriminated by the S'pore Govt. The latter was a pragmatic move, cuz it was sensitive time (Malaysia would witness racial riots three years after we left). What happened was that the Govt. deliberately phased out the Malay regulars - justified as "a fairer ethnic distribution of military personnel" - then unofficially shut out Malays from NS & the SAF between '68 & '73.
So on the one hand, the Malays were trying to keep up with the zealous national drive towards industralization, all the while trying to settle into a new HDB lifestyle. Yet on the other, the old source of colonial employment was gone, & ditto the new SAF. Worse yet, they couldn't get permanent jobs outside cuz either they weren't certified as already dischared from NS, or prospective bosses were fearing they could be called up for NS anytime!
All this is mentioned in Huxley's book. He also referenced LHL's 1987 Parliament speech where the racial mistrust was officially admitted, but which LHL said the SAF had already "doubled" its Malay intake since '77 & that all eligible ones were conscripted by '85.
How does that connect with today? Simple, it means that the 2nd generation of NS servicemen (those whose fathers also served) generally started enlisting during the beginning of the '90s. But for the Malays who were first called up in the late '70s/early '80s, their male offsprings were logically only called up to serve during these last few years.
I'm a believer that the purported institutional distrust will be obsolete by the end of this decade, once all of the 2nd-generation Malays finish NS like their dads (& had earlier gone through the national education system).
But I agree, the idea of whether Muslims would fight fellow Muslims is a concern as far as SAF operationality goes.
Slackers tend to be racial-blind but, if I have to arrow a group, I'll name the Hokkien peng as the most traditionally bo-chap. That's why the regimentation was so strict in the '70s, with famous Enciks earning their reputations & a whole dictionary of Singlish/army lingo was invented, cuz not many Malays were conscripted then. -
True...
SAF's doubt will always be there..
Um............Well , SAF can always deploy our malay/muslim friends to guard here in SG..if they don't wanna risk muslims fighting against muslims..
as what it is stated..
I believe in the future, the threat will not come from malaysia but from china..
so SAF in the future..will take a radical change..
in which..
YOU CAN'T TRUST THE CHINESE In singapore ANYMORE -
Be a malay...unless u are malay..u wont understand...u r just an outsider making comments...Originally posted by Moxie:No, I'm Chinese. I just took exception to that specific remark, & IMO itwon't help the community to get thus slighted if more people thought like that.
I'm cognizant enough to know where the Malays are coming from. Fact is, their earlier generation of baby-boomers, nee born between '46 & '55 or so, ended up completely alienated, & it's this context that politicians refer to when they talk about "reintegrating into society."
Beyond their control was the "forced" urbanization that began in the '60s, along with the Chinese squatters as the HDB geared up its flat building (20,000 in '60; over 200,000 by '75) due to the Bukit Ho Swee fires. Then came the emotional Separatism from Malaysia, followed by the British withdrawal in the early '70s (which Tim Huxley said 20% of the Malay population worked for).
But they were also, at best, left to fend for themselves &, at worst, actively discriminated by the S'pore Govt. The latter was a pragmatic move, cuz it was sensitive time (Malaysia would witness racial riots three years after we left). What happened was that the Govt. deliberately phased out the Malay regulars - justified as "a fairer ethnic distribution of military personnel" - then unofficially shut out Malays from NS & the SAF between '68 & '73.
So on the one hand, the Malays were trying to keep up with the zealous national drive towards industralization, all the while trying to settle into a new HDB lifestyle. Yet on the other, the old source of colonial employment was gone, & ditto the new SAF. Worse yet, they couldn't get permanent jobs outside cuz either they weren't certified as already dischared from NS, or prospective bosses were fearing they could be called up for NS anytime!
All this is mentioned in Huxley's book. He also referenced LHL's 1987 Parliament speech where the racial mistrust was officially admitted, but which LHL said the SAF had already "doubled" its Malay intake since '77 & that all eligible ones were conscripted by '85.
How does that connect with today? Simple, it means that the 2nd generation of NS servicemen (those whose fathers also served) generally started enlisting during the beginning of the '90s. But for the Malays who were first called up in the late '70s/early '80s, their male offsprings were logically only called up to serve during these last few years.
I'm a believer that the purported institutional distrust will be obsolete by the end of this decade, once all of the 2nd-generation Malays finish NS like their dads (& had earlier gone through the national education system).
But I agree, the idea of whether Muslims would fight fellow Muslims is a concern as far as SAF operationality goes.
Slackers tend to be racial-blind but, if I have to arrow a group, I'll name the Hokkien peng as the most traditionally bo-chap. That's why the regimentation was so strict in the '70s, with famous Enciks earning their reputations & a whole dictionary of Singlish/army lingo was invented, cuz not many Malays were conscripted then. -
aiyah..its all politics man...quote a true eg, when i active,
my pc recommend 2 men for leader course, not approved, one got into demo course....the other cant remember!
so..my point is...middle mgt (like PC, OC) can recommend but top brass might reject....
UNTIL the system change, then ONLY major change can take place..if not, u will never see our fellow Malays in sensitive appt....
another incident, which i heard happen when we went for water obs at Seletar camp, a fight break out at canteen, so 3 policeman came..tink one of the policeman was Malay..the two police(non-Malay) was allowed into the CE camp but the poor Malay chapie had to wait outside!!!
Its sad but its true....
I must say...the few malays in my coy, were more hardworking n garand then me, i quite bochap..do just enuff..but due to inequalities in the system, they are not given the chance.
My advice to all u Malays..do the best in what u r tasked, show top brass I CAN DO IT TOO attitude, maybe one day u can be the first Malay tankee, diver, bridging engineer, just like the first Malay fighter pilot!!!
cheers -
True...Originally posted by bobafett1969:aiyah..its all politics man...quote a true eg, when i active,
my pc recommend 2 men for leader course, not approved, one got into demo course....the other cant remember!
so..my point is...middle mgt (like PC, OC) can recommend but top brass might reject....
UNTIL the system change, then ONLY major change can take place..if not, u will never see our fellow Malays in sensitive appt....
another incident, which i heard happen when we went for water obs at Seletar camp, a fight break out at canteen, so 3 policeman came..tink one of the policeman was Malay..the two police(non-Malay) was allowed into the CE camp but the poor Malay chapie had to wait outside!!!
Its sad but its true....
I must say...the few malays in my coy, were more hardworking n garand then me, i quite bochap..do just enuff..but due to inequalities in the system, they are not given the chance.
My advice to all u Malays..do the best in what u r tasked, show top brass I CAN DO IT TOO attitude, maybe one day u can be the first Malay tankee, diver, bridging engineer, just like the first Malay fighter pilot!!!
cheers
From my point of view, RSAF doesn't wanna take risks. -
Actually, the SAF is just a which prides itself on Israeli and American technology and knowledge in battlefield
Traditional Israeli behaviour is of "distrust of neighbours"...
Traditional USA behaviour is
"to be friendly to everyone and does everything in a effective and efficient manner, by using propaganda to make the world know that they are the true helpers and peacekeepers"
A mix would be...the usual "distrust" + the "friendly to everyone" -
We mix and match the different ethos of different armies around the world to produce a rojak.Originally posted by HeckKER:Actually, the SAF is just a which prides itself on Israeli and American technology and knowledge in battlefield
Traditional Israeli behaviour is of "distrust of neighbours"...
Traditional USA behaviour is
"to be friendly to everyone and does everything in a effective and efficient manner, by using propaganda to make the world know that they are the true helpers and peacekeepers"
A mix would be...the usual "distrust" + the "friendly to everyone" -
The reason why Malays are not allowed is this...please don't blame me for this info.I was working in intelligence in MINDEF...
We are surrounded by muslim countries.Our neighbour malaysia is muslim.Singapore and Malaysia have always been having a weird relationship,hot and cold.In the earlier days there were a lot of muslim fanatics in malaysia who threatened to walk over singapore.
That was why armour,since it's suppose to be the elite of thearmy services...not bec the men are fitter than guards units,bec the amout of money spen on developing new armour tanks.Do u know singapore is building it's own apc,infantry fighting vehicles just like the cheaper form of American Bradley.
Anyways imagine if Malaysia,or Indonesia muslim extremists decide to invade Singapore.Do you think that our armour units,if there are malays in it's formation,will fight for or against our own men.Also take note that armour units can kill large numbers of men with their firepower.When extremists use Islam as a tool for jihad,where do the sympathies of our malay friends lie??
No offence to all my malay friends.I love u guys... -
it depends on each person actually...Originally posted by lovetonight:The reason why Malays are not allowed is this...please don't blame me for this info.I was working in intelligence in MINDEF...
We are surrounded by muslim countries.Our neighbour malaysia is muslim.Singapore and Malaysia have always been having a weird relationship,hot and cold.In the earlier days there were a lot of muslim fanatics in malaysia who threatened to walk over singapore.
That was why armour,since it's suppose to be the elite of thearmy services...not bec the men are fitter than guards units,bec the amout of money spen on developing new armour tanks.Do u know singapore is building it's own apc,infantry fighting vehicles just like the cheaper form of American Bradley.
Anyways imagine if Malaysia,or Indonesia muslim extremists decide to invade Singapore.Do you think that our armour units,if there are malays in it's formation,will fight for or against our own men.Also take note that armour units can kill large numbers of men with their firepower.When extremists use Islam as a tool for jihad,where do the sympathies of our malay friends lie??
No offence to all my malay friends.I love u guys... -
Thanks for the really honest answer, lovetonight.Originally posted by lovetonight:The reason why Malays are not allowed is this...please don't blame me for this info.I was working in intelligence in MINDEF...
We are surrounded by muslim countries.Our neighbour malaysia is muslim.Singapore and Malaysia have always been having a weird relationship,hot and cold.In the earlier days there were a lot of muslim fanatics in malaysia who threatened to walk over singapore.
That was why armour,since it's suppose to be the elite of thearmy services...not bec the men are fitter than guards units,bec the amout of money spen on developing new armour tanks.Do u know singapore is building it's own apc,infantry fighting vehicles just like the cheaper form of American Bradley.
Anyways imagine if Malaysia,or Indonesia muslim extremists decide to invade Singapore.Do you think that our armour units,if there are malays in it's formation,will fight for or against our own men.Also take note that armour units can kill large numbers of men with their firepower.When extremists use Islam as a tool for jihad,where do the sympathies of our malay friends lie??
No offence to all my malay friends.I love u guys...
Really.
It's a refreshing change from the bullshit that SAF dishes out in response to controversial issues such as this.
I remember that a few years ago, MM Lee (he was SM then) said publicly that we have to be careful about putting a Malay into a machine gun team for he might hesistate at shooting at Malays.
A public uproar ensued.
It was quite some time ago.... back in 1995 or 1996, I think. Does anyone remember? -
druze are arabs but they are not considered muslims at least by their arab muslim brethren. Aside from the sayeret ha'druzim, the IDF has its own arab legion..the sayeret ha'bedium (bedouin) - true blue sons of the desert who are the world's greatest desert trackers.Originally posted by bcoy:Sidenote - there are Muslims in the IDF too. The Druze Muslims are very good scouts I think.
However, the thing to note is that these units are more of 'stand-alone' units in the IDF -
I don't personally buy into the "Malay won't fight Malay" argument 100%.
That's cuz they have a history of it, smack between the fall of Malacca in 1511 & Raffles's 1819 founding of S'pore. I realized this when I explored through Malaysia's history textbooks, which described the various rivalries even as the S'pore schools glossed over them. They're not a warrior people per se, but it was nevertheless an eye-opener to discover just how bloody some of the conflicts, stretching even into the 19th century when the British adopted their "divide & rule" strategy.
Granted, today's Southeast Asian loyalties are built of a different political nature. Today's psychological warfare can also pretty sophisticated & professional in nature; you don't really need zealots to radicalize a community anymore (like those as late as in the 1960s).
I believe the local Malays will answer the call if it was our home & sovereignty that are under threat. Religion, not race per se, is the bigger pull for them; all it takes is a respectable iman to issue a fatwa & they won't fight. -
I got more important questions on Armour unit
1) Is it true that all the non combatants like clerks, technicans, storeman etc are combat fit i.e PES A/B and they also needs to chiong suah as other armourers and there is not a single PES C/E personnels in an armour camp?
2) Does Armour units have nights off whenever there's no duties at night for non combatants there? -
1) Since their vocations are clerks/technicians/storeman and not armor infantry they chiong suah for wat? But pesA/B or maybe pes C also need to go for range, ippt & soc.. even their vocation belongs to the service side...Originally posted by chikopek:I got more important questions on Armour unit
1) Is it true that all the non combatants like clerks, technicans, storeman etc are combat fit i.e PES A/B and they also needs to chiong suah as other armourers and there is not a single PES C/E personnels in an armour camp?
2) Does Armour units have nights off whenever there's no duties at night for non combatants there?
2) Depend on unit? Most probably all have lah but my unit which is 41SAR, YES all have nights off. -
1) Really depends. FTX and ATEC, clerks/storeman/technicians also need to wear camo and go outfield. Esp FMT and MMT, they also 'run' around in their RCV and ATTC...Originally posted by AYU's faithful:1) Since their vocations are clerks/technicians/storeman and not armor infantry they chiong suah for wat? But pesA/B or maybe pes C also need to go for range, ippt & soc.. even their vocation belongs to the service side...
2) Depend on unit? Most probably all have lah but my unit which is 41SAR, YES all have nights off.
2) I also from 41SAR... But ORD le...
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nope. no malays.
u know the reason. -
not even storeman, drivers and RPs?Originally posted by noprofile:nope. no malays.
u know the reason.
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i m last time fr 30 sce....there is no malay in my company too....
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you can't find any malays in an armour unit, not even cooks, storemen, RPs, drivers, technicians, armourer, medics and even mess boys !!Originally posted by Gordonator:not even storeman, drivers and RPs? -
They were saying that Armour is one of the understated unit in SAF , commandos got their red beret m guardmen their tab to show ... Armour got black beret which nobody knows.. Seen the armour training b 4 in the field , think their training are quite shiong !! imagine the trooper has to be rooasted inside the APC under the hot sun... aka living hell!! Generally they walk less than infantry soldier but They also have to debus to do flanking etc etc..
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In the past (before 1990), AI troppers got to dismount from the APC near objective and run behind it till form up for fire movement or other extrication drills. Now only dismounted when the APC reaches the objective.Originally posted by seancannot:They were saying that Armour is one of the understated unit in SAF , commandos got their red beret m guardmen their tab to show ... Armour got black beret which nobody knows.. Seen the armour training b 4 in the field , think their training are quite shiong !! imagine the trooper has to be rooasted inside the APC under the hot sun... aka living hell!! Generally they walk less than infantry soldier but They also have to debus to do flanking etc etc..
FYI, even under hot sun, the troppers still can fall sleep easily. Armour deliberately attack normally walk at most half the distance what the infantry covers. -
wow. extreme until like that.Originally posted by flash9933:you can't find any malays in an armour unit, not even cooks, storemen, RPs, drivers, technicians, armourer, medics and even mess boys !!