Which GOM states our book in/out timing?
-
Sometimes units CSMs/OCs have been going a little too far in our book in out time....
and it makes us wonder if there is actually a GOM stating they are allowed to do so?
e.g. On a saturday (basing on 5.5 day week), if i book out around 2pm to 3pm? shouldn't they compensate?
On a sunday, we are asked to book in around 1700 for a meeting, isn't that shortchanging our weekend?
Which GOM states that personnel (specialist and above) MUST stay-in?
i do not see the need for us to stay in....i book out around 2000 when men have no training anymore. I book in 0600. when the men would be at breakfast. So why do i need to stay in if their reason is that so we reveille with the men?
in fact, me staying out would mean earlier reveille, since i need to travel to camp which i do not mind. since i rest more at home than in camp as i have bunkmates that sleeps at wee hours. -
hmmm.... why must u draw line between men and u? cannot stay longer than your men? cannot lead by example?Originally posted by Ponders:Sometimes units CSMs/OCs have been going a little too far in our book in out time....
and it makes us wonder if there is actually a GOM stating they are allowed to do so?
e.g. On a saturday (basing on 5.5 day week), if i book out around 2pm to 3pm? shouldn't they compensate?
On a sunday, we are asked to book in around 1700 for a meeting, isn't that shortchanging our weekend?
Which GOM states that personnel (specialist and above) MUST stay-in?
i do not see the need for us to stay in....i book out around 2000 when men have no training anymore. I book in 0600. when the men would be at breakfast. So why do i need to stay in if their reason is that so we reveille with the men?
in fact, me staying out would mean earlier reveille, since i need to travel to camp which i do not mind. since i rest more at home than in camp as i have bunkmates that sleeps at wee hours.
-
Hey, in a combat unit, the very fact that your CSM/OC lets you stay out is a very good privilege.They can make you stay in if they want.Originally posted by Ponders:Sometimes units CSMs/OCs have been going a little too far in our book in out time....
and it makes us wonder if there is actually a GOM stating they are allowed to do so?
e.g. On a saturday (basing on 5.5 day week), if i book out around 2pm to 3pm? shouldn't they compensate?
On a sunday, we are asked to book in around 1700 for a meeting, isn't that shortchanging our weekend?
Which GOM states that personnel (specialist and above) MUST stay-in?
i do not see the need for us to stay in....i book out around 2000 when men have no training anymore. I book in 0600. when the men would be at breakfast. So why do i need to stay in if their reason is that so we reveille with the men?
in fact, me staying out would mean earlier reveille, since i need to travel to camp which i do not mind. since i rest more at home than in camp as i have bunkmates that sleeps at wee hours.
It sucks to book in early and book out late, but your men have it worse, they can't stay out in the weekdays.So do sympathize with them.Your rank does not make you any higher-class than them. -
Are you married with children? Are you a regular?
If not, quit complaining as being able to stay out is a privilege not an entitlement. -
stay in so that you can be activated ANYTIME. Don't forget you are NSF (Full-Time)
And why your mind so narrow? How come you never go ask why you can go on unofficial off when there are no Standing Order that says personnel can go on off.... -
Tell me where in the GOM instructs you how to wipe your ass or what angle to pee. Your book in/out timing is mainly dictated by training requirements and/or Unit culture. I'll tell you which GOM it is, its the Lan lan suck thumb directive.
Don't bitch and whine about how booking in at 1700hrs on Sunday is shortchanging your weekend. Assuming you are a spec or offr, that is your additional responsiblity, if you feel you're not up to it, put in a request and tell your CO you're not up to it. -
No sane policy official in MINDEF will create a GOM that will hinder the operational requirements of the Armed Forces.Now, I'm not trying to be a brown nose for the army, but this is all about logical thinking.Say you have graduated and are working, it's company requirement that dictates what time you exactly get off work.And overtime pay is not an entitlement, so is a minimum wage.Yes, the situation sucks, but you're not the only one going through it.Originally posted by gonegoose:Tell me where in the GOM instructs you how to wipe your ass or what angle to pee. Your book in/out timing is mainly dictated by training requirements and/or Unit culture. I'll tell you which GOM it is, its the Lan lan suck thumb directive.
Don't bitch and whine about how booking in at 1700hrs on Sunday is shortchanging your weekend. Assuming you are a spec or offr, that is your additional responsiblity, if you feel you're not up to it, put in a request and tell your CO you're not up to it.
When I was in the Army,I grumbled and cursed when I had to stay back till 10 or 11pm every end of the month because reports needed to be done,My pay is measly, only $590, and I always griped about the slaveowner attitude the SAF has.But in the end, if you shunt aside the Army bullcrap and look at it objectively, it's all about your role.IF you dislike your role, do something to change it.But while you're still in that role, you need to do certain things to keep your ass safe and ensure you have a smooth ride. -
Hey look, i am just asking. I don't need you guys to come back with sarcastic or aggresive replies.
My point is, as an NSF, it is our duty to serve it and yes i do understand there are sacrifices to be made... but the point i am trying to drive is, if there are no guidelines in place to state our book in book out timing, one fine day we can just enlist and see our home 2 years later.
For some of you who think i am just grumpy, book-out minded guy... i am not... it's just that i have recently moved unit and practices are way different. Our off-in-lieu (and i meant OIL not OFFs) are not compensated and we have irresponsible superiors who simply make us book in for an early briefing on Sunday. When asked why the briefing can;t be done earlier before book out, usually their reply is...... we just finished doing the AI.
One of you mentioned there are no GOM inplace for off, in fact there is one existent. It states the difference between, Offs, OIL, Offs as rewards, offs in compassionate grounds.
And if sstaying in meant we can be activated at any point of time, i do not think a non-op unit will make a difference.
Most importantly, i am just trying to have an open discussion rather than have you people shooting me back with sarcasm.
And to the person who said i should lead by example, yes i do draw the line between commanders and men. and commanders should have a certain privileges to set them apart as an incentive. and if you go by this logic, insist your CO, RSM, CSMs to stay in as well. -
You are SO SO SO darned wrong.Originally posted by Ponders:Hey look, i am just asking. I don't need you guys to come back with sarcastic or aggresive replies.
My point is, as an NSF, it is our duty to serve it and yes i do understand there are sacrifices to be made... but the point i am trying to drive is, if there are no guidelines in place to state our book in book out timing, one fine day we can just enlist and see our home 2 years later.
For some of you who think i am just grumpy, book-out minded guy... i am not... it's just that i have recently moved unit and practices are way different. Our off-in-lieu (and i meant OIL not OFFs) are not compensated and we have irresponsible superiors who simply make us book in for an early briefing on Sunday. When asked why the briefing can;t be done earlier before book out, usually their reply is...... we just finished doing the AI.
One of you mentioned there are no GOM inplace for off, in fact there is one existent. It states the difference between, Offs, OIL, Offs as rewards, offs in compassionate grounds.
And if sstaying in meant we can be activated at any point of time, i do not think a non-op unit will make a difference.
Most importantly, i am just trying to have an open discussion rather than have you people shooting me back with sarcasm.
And to the person who said i should lead by example, yes i do draw the line between commanders and men. and commanders should have a certain privileges to set them apart as an incentive. and if you go by this logic, insist your CO, RSM, CSMs to stay in as well.
Commanders should not have certain privileges, in fact, privileges should be given to the men, not the commanders. We are the people who get the pat on the shoulder from our higher-ups should we do well, so why should we get privileges? The real people helping you execute your plan well are your men, so give them respect, and they may well respect you
I hope you are not an officer, 'cos your thinking really means you should just go into OCS for re-course. -
Being able to wear your rank and lead men is YOUR privilege.Originally posted by Ponders:Hey look, i am just asking. I don't need you guys to come back with sarcastic or aggresive replies.
My point is, as an NSF, it is our duty to serve it and yes i do understand there are sacrifices to be made... but the point i am trying to drive is, if there are no guidelines in place to state our book in book out timing, one fine day we can just enlist and see our home 2 years later.
For some of you who think i am just grumpy, book-out minded guy... i am not... it's just that i have recently moved unit and practices are way different. Our off-in-lieu (and i meant OIL not OFFs) are not compensated and we have irresponsible superiors who simply make us book in for an early briefing on Sunday. When asked why the briefing can;t be done earlier before book out, usually their reply is...... we just finished doing the AI.
One of you mentioned there are no GOM inplace for off, in fact there is one existent. It states the difference between, Offs, OIL, Offs as rewards, offs in compassionate grounds.
And if sstaying in meant we can be activated at any point of time, i do not think a non-op unit will make a difference.
Most importantly, i am just trying to have an open discussion rather than have you people shooting me back with sarcasm.
And to the person who said i should lead by example, yes i do draw the line between commanders and men. and commanders should have a certain privileges to set them apart as an incentive. and if you go by this logic, insist your CO, RSM, CSMs to stay in as well. -
Apologies if we sounded a tad bit harsh or aggressive.The SAF is not a fair place and it's because we are NSF junior commanders, that's why might get the short end of the stick.Originally posted by Ponders:Hey look, i am just asking. I don't need you guys to come back with sarcastic or aggresive replies.
My point is, as an NSF, it is our duty to serve it and yes i do understand there are sacrifices to be made... but the point i am trying to drive is, if there are no guidelines in place to state our book in book out timing, one fine day we can just enlist and see our home 2 years later.
For some of you who think i am just grumpy, book-out minded guy... i am not... it's just that i have recently moved unit and practices are way different. Our off-in-lieu (and i meant OIL not OFFs) are not compensated and we have irresponsible superiors who simply make us book in for an early briefing on Sunday. When asked why the briefing can;t be done earlier before book out, usually their reply is...... we just finished doing the AI.
One of you mentioned there are no GOM inplace for off, in fact there is one existent. It states the difference between, Offs, OIL, Offs as rewards, offs in compassionate grounds.
And if sstaying in meant we can be activated at any point of time, i do not think a non-op unit will make a difference.
Most importantly, i am just trying to have an open discussion rather than have you people shooting me back with sarcasm.
And to the person who said i should lead by example, yes i do draw the line between commanders and men. and commanders should have a certain privileges to set them apart as an incentive. and if you go by this logic, insist your CO, RSM, CSMs to stay in as well.
Regulars are given more leeway to stay out, therefore you see your CO, RSM , CSM etc staying out.But look at it this way,these guys are stuck in the Army for decades, whereas you and I are out in two years.
Commanders by right, should be the ones who carry the extra burden for their men, for their prvilege already comes from their rank , extra pay and the congratulations that your officer gives you.Granted, the army might not be that nice, but the system is entrenched.So yeah..try to make the best of it..We are after all, lil hobbits in the larger system. -
it depends on your unit .... and how active it is ... like SIRs and SARs
I think to get book out everyday is a bit hard ... but for schools in other unit like SMM, SOCE. Instructors get to book out should be ok .. but not everyday ...
well, get yr freaking idea correct and serve the army -
Eh dude..cool down man..Originally posted by antoh:it depends on your unit .... and how active it is ... like SIRs and SARs
I think to get book out everyday is a bit hard ... but for schools in other unit like SMM, SOCE. Instructors get to book out should be ok .. but not everyday ...
well, get yr freaking idea correct and serve the army
-
some ppl thinks that they are white horse and got privilege. they have no idea how hard these SIRs units and SARs units are functioning.
If you wanna be calcuative ... let me take out my calculator and count how many hrs you serve -
hm.. i think you mean to point out a perceived irregularity, but ended up sounding complainy. if im not mistaken, you think that if the current perceived unfair practise in your unit can be taken to the extreme if regulations are not in place.Originally posted by Ponders:Hey look, i am just asking. I don't need you guys to come back with sarcastic or aggresive replies.
My point is, as an NSF, it is our duty to serve it and yes i do understand there are sacrifices to be made... but the point i am trying to drive is, if there are no guidelines in place to state our book in book out timing, one fine day we can just enlist and see our home 2 years later.
For some of you who think i am just grumpy, book-out minded guy... i am not... it's just that i have recently moved unit and practices are way different. Our off-in-lieu (and i meant OIL not OFFs) are not compensated and we have irresponsible superiors who simply make us book in for an early briefing on Sunday. When asked why the briefing can;t be done earlier before book out, usually their reply is...... we just finished doing the AI.
One of you mentioned there are no GOM inplace for off, in fact there is one existent. It states the difference between, Offs, OIL, Offs as rewards, offs in compassionate grounds.
And if sstaying in meant we can be activated at any point of time, i do not think a non-op unit will make a difference.
Most importantly, i am just trying to have an open discussion rather than have you people shooting me back with sarcasm.
And to the person who said i should lead by example, yes i do draw the line between commanders and men. and commanders should have a certain privileges to set them apart as an incentive. and if you go by this logic, insist your CO, RSM, CSMs to stay in as well.
i cant say i know the regulations regarding this well. but im sure it is somewhere.
taken logically, staying in is supposed to ensure that the soldiers have sufficient rest every night. however, married personnel's family life is duely recognised by allowing them to stay out.
booking in and out timings, however, are really a matter of the management. from your current point of view, you think the timings are ludicrous. but do remember you are not the only one who has to abide by those timings. i agree with you that if the rationale for booking in and out timings are warped, then they should be changed for the better.
if you fear that the practise could be taken to extreme without proper regulations, again, im sure there are these regulations. even if there isnt, i cant imagine any regular serviceman (of which the management of a unit would be consisted, and this order can only be made at the CO level) would want to kill his career by depriving his unit of booking out without any good reason.
as for privileges and incentives, i think already, officers (commissioned or not) and even specialists are enjoying different levels of privileges - things that may be taken for granted and hence not recognised as such. but these privileges are never meant to be incentives to attract people to become specialists and officers - that would be putting the cart before the horse. so if one day these privileges are withdrawn then what will happen? -
It seems only wuming78 understand what i am trying to drive across..... yes.. he's right... I AM NOT COMPLAINING!!!
I am just saying, there is something wrong in the system. Because our commanders may just get carried away and make us book in earlier and earlier.
To give you a clearer picture, I am not a whiny, always-book out, always ask for offs, always att c or come out with weird reasons kind of person.
But I am amongst a few of these people. It seems that whenever, we are asked to book in early they are never around (will bring up all kinds of reasons). But when there is toned-down training on any particular days, they are the first to ask to clear offs. Leaving us left being to do their work.
End result, we seldom have sufficient break from army. But it has come to a point that in consecutive 2 months i only meet my family on sundays the few hours after booking out sunday morning and booking in early evening. worst, i last met my girlfriend early march.
Why things are like that is because we have a sucky training schedule as my current unit had to suddenly adapt to the NS-cut and all training facilities were previously booked solid by other units. hence only slots open are on weekends to our unit.
K, i know there are enough people in the army who chao keng their way thru to the point i believe some of you stereotype me as one.
But in actual fact, i am just saying, "i am kinda getting tired and i see no rest ahead". so it makes me come to wonder if there is a directive letting us be out of camp at certain ours and if our commanders are given the "power" to distrub us during this time.
because as i said, our commanders can simply make us bookout saturday 3pm and book in sunday 12pm. they will get too carried away.
IN SIMPLER terms.... lets look at the at employment outside SAF. A TYPICAL office worker WILL NOT be disturbed on sundays and PHs. But if they are, they will be compensated duly. An overworked worker will be given 1.5x to 2x wages after certain hours, an accumulated hours exceeding certain hours will be compensated with a day off AND transport subsidy.
A worker will start work 0830 (or as stated in contract) and end 1730 Mondays to Fridays.
To bring back to SAF context, though there is guideline saying any training on Rest days will be compensated.
BUT it has no guideline WHAT TIME the service personnel should book in on that day. And unreasonable OC will just say, ok you all will book in at 1500 hours.
to end off this long note, please avoid personal attacks on my mindset or on my way of thinking. It's not that i am offended, i just think we are not being constructive here. -
Okay, let me apologize because I failed to see the gist.You're right, the system does allow for abuses now you've outlined it clearly.And I think we owe you an apology.Originally posted by Ponders:It seems only wuming78 understand what i am trying to drive across..... yes.. he's right... I AM NOT COMPLAINING!!!
I am just saying, there is something wrong in the system. Because our commanders may just get carried away and make us book in earlier and earlier.
To give you a clearer picture, I am not a whiny, always-book out, always ask for offs, always att c or come out with weird reasons kind of person.
But I am amongst a few of these people. It seems that whenever, we are asked to book in early they are never around (will bring up all kinds of reasons). But when there is toned-down training on any particular days, they are the first to ask to clear offs. Leaving us left being to do their work.
End result, we seldom have sufficient break from army. But it has come to a point that in consecutive 2 months i only meet my family on sundays the few hours after booking out sunday morning and booking in early evening. worst, i last met my girlfriend early march.
Why things are like that is because we have a sucky training schedule as my current unit had to suddenly adapt to the NS-cut and all training facilities were previously booked solid by other units. hence only slots open are on weekends to our unit.
K, i know there are enough people in the army who chao keng their way thru to the point i believe some of you stereotype me as one.
But in actual fact, i am just saying, "i am kinda getting tired and i see no rest ahead". so it makes me come to wonder if there is a directive letting us be out of camp at certain ours and if our commanders are given the "power" to distrub us during this time.
because as i said, our commanders can simply make us bookout saturday 3pm and book in sunday 12pm. they will get too carried away.
IN SIMPLER terms.... lets look at the at employment outside SAF. A TYPICAL office worker WILL NOT be disturbed on sundays and PHs. But if they are, they will be compensated duly. An overworked worker will be given 1.5x to 2x wages after certain hours, an accumulated hours exceeding certain hours will be compensated with a day off AND transport subsidy.
A worker will start work 0830 (or as stated in contract) and end 1730 Mondays to Fridays.
To bring back to SAF context, though there is guideline saying any training on Rest days will be compensated.
BUT it has no guideline WHAT TIME the service personnel should book in on that day. And unreasonable OC will just say, ok you all will book in at 1500 hours.
to end off this long note, please avoid personal attacks on my mindset or on my way of thinking. It's not that i am offended, i just think we are not being constructive here.
No hard feelings yeah?
-
Because: Unit policy.
Unit policy changes from time to time. Only those who are tua liap make the decision.
Every CO change, every RSM change, every tua liap change. Policy change.
Want to "act" infront of tua liap, satay their backsai, su ka su ka change this change that. Bend the policy inside out.
Last time my RSM, nice guy, everyday got nights out. Fwah, then change RSM liao, suddenly nights out restricted, book-in timing revised, weekly scheduled sai gangs, all stay-out personnel will be review periodically, plus alot more some even chup into the officers also.
So bo pian lor. I know it sucks infact if SAF dun suck it is not call SAF liao so bare wif it, ORD liao, heck it man!
AIM FOR ORD!