hmmm.... why must u draw line between men and u? cannot stay longer than your men? cannot lead by example?Originally posted by Ponders:Sometimes units CSMs/OCs have been going a little too far in our book in out time....
and it makes us wonder if there is actually a GOM stating they are allowed to do so?
e.g. On a saturday (basing on 5.5 day week), if i book out around 2pm to 3pm? shouldn't they compensate?
On a sunday, we are asked to book in around 1700 for a meeting, isn't that shortchanging our weekend?
Which GOM states that personnel (specialist and above) MUST stay-in?
i do not see the need for us to stay in....i book out around 2000 when men have no training anymore. I book in 0600. when the men would be at breakfast. So why do i need to stay in if their reason is that so we reveille with the men?
in fact, me staying out would mean earlier reveille, since i need to travel to camp which i do not mind. since i rest more at home than in camp as i have bunkmates that sleeps at wee hours.
Hey, in a combat unit, the very fact that your CSM/OC lets you stay out is a very good privilege.They can make you stay in if they want.Originally posted by Ponders:Sometimes units CSMs/OCs have been going a little too far in our book in out time....
and it makes us wonder if there is actually a GOM stating they are allowed to do so?
e.g. On a saturday (basing on 5.5 day week), if i book out around 2pm to 3pm? shouldn't they compensate?
On a sunday, we are asked to book in around 1700 for a meeting, isn't that shortchanging our weekend?
Which GOM states that personnel (specialist and above) MUST stay-in?
i do not see the need for us to stay in....i book out around 2000 when men have no training anymore. I book in 0600. when the men would be at breakfast. So why do i need to stay in if their reason is that so we reveille with the men?
in fact, me staying out would mean earlier reveille, since i need to travel to camp which i do not mind. since i rest more at home than in camp as i have bunkmates that sleeps at wee hours.
No sane policy official in MINDEF will create a GOM that will hinder the operational requirements of the Armed Forces.Now, I'm not trying to be a brown nose for the army, but this is all about logical thinking.Say you have graduated and are working, it's company requirement that dictates what time you exactly get off work.And overtime pay is not an entitlement, so is a minimum wage.Yes, the situation sucks, but you're not the only one going through it.Originally posted by gonegoose:Tell me where in the GOM instructs you how to wipe your ass or what angle to pee. Your book in/out timing is mainly dictated by training requirements and/or Unit culture. I'll tell you which GOM it is, its the Lan lan suck thumb directive.
Don't bitch and whine about how booking in at 1700hrs on Sunday is shortchanging your weekend. Assuming you are a spec or offr, that is your additional responsiblity, if you feel you're not up to it, put in a request and tell your CO you're not up to it.
You are SO SO SO darned wrong.Originally posted by Ponders:Hey look, i am just asking. I don't need you guys to come back with sarcastic or aggresive replies.
My point is, as an NSF, it is our duty to serve it and yes i do understand there are sacrifices to be made... but the point i am trying to drive is, if there are no guidelines in place to state our book in book out timing, one fine day we can just enlist and see our home 2 years later.
For some of you who think i am just grumpy, book-out minded guy... i am not... it's just that i have recently moved unit and practices are way different. Our off-in-lieu (and i meant OIL not OFFs) are not compensated and we have irresponsible superiors who simply make us book in for an early briefing on Sunday. When asked why the briefing can;t be done earlier before book out, usually their reply is...... we just finished doing the AI.
One of you mentioned there are no GOM inplace for off, in fact there is one existent. It states the difference between, Offs, OIL, Offs as rewards, offs in compassionate grounds.
And if sstaying in meant we can be activated at any point of time, i do not think a non-op unit will make a difference.
Most importantly, i am just trying to have an open discussion rather than have you people shooting me back with sarcasm.
And to the person who said i should lead by example, yes i do draw the line between commanders and men. and commanders should have a certain privileges to set them apart as an incentive. and if you go by this logic, insist your CO, RSM, CSMs to stay in as well.
Being able to wear your rank and lead men is YOUR privilege.Originally posted by Ponders:Hey look, i am just asking. I don't need you guys to come back with sarcastic or aggresive replies.
My point is, as an NSF, it is our duty to serve it and yes i do understand there are sacrifices to be made... but the point i am trying to drive is, if there are no guidelines in place to state our book in book out timing, one fine day we can just enlist and see our home 2 years later.
For some of you who think i am just grumpy, book-out minded guy... i am not... it's just that i have recently moved unit and practices are way different. Our off-in-lieu (and i meant OIL not OFFs) are not compensated and we have irresponsible superiors who simply make us book in for an early briefing on Sunday. When asked why the briefing can;t be done earlier before book out, usually their reply is...... we just finished doing the AI.
One of you mentioned there are no GOM inplace for off, in fact there is one existent. It states the difference between, Offs, OIL, Offs as rewards, offs in compassionate grounds.
And if sstaying in meant we can be activated at any point of time, i do not think a non-op unit will make a difference.
Most importantly, i am just trying to have an open discussion rather than have you people shooting me back with sarcasm.
And to the person who said i should lead by example, yes i do draw the line between commanders and men. and commanders should have a certain privileges to set them apart as an incentive. and if you go by this logic, insist your CO, RSM, CSMs to stay in as well.
Apologies if we sounded a tad bit harsh or aggressive.The SAF is not a fair place and it's because we are NSF junior commanders, that's why might get the short end of the stick.Originally posted by Ponders:Hey look, i am just asking. I don't need you guys to come back with sarcastic or aggresive replies.
My point is, as an NSF, it is our duty to serve it and yes i do understand there are sacrifices to be made... but the point i am trying to drive is, if there are no guidelines in place to state our book in book out timing, one fine day we can just enlist and see our home 2 years later.
For some of you who think i am just grumpy, book-out minded guy... i am not... it's just that i have recently moved unit and practices are way different. Our off-in-lieu (and i meant OIL not OFFs) are not compensated and we have irresponsible superiors who simply make us book in for an early briefing on Sunday. When asked why the briefing can;t be done earlier before book out, usually their reply is...... we just finished doing the AI.
One of you mentioned there are no GOM inplace for off, in fact there is one existent. It states the difference between, Offs, OIL, Offs as rewards, offs in compassionate grounds.
And if sstaying in meant we can be activated at any point of time, i do not think a non-op unit will make a difference.
Most importantly, i am just trying to have an open discussion rather than have you people shooting me back with sarcasm.
And to the person who said i should lead by example, yes i do draw the line between commanders and men. and commanders should have a certain privileges to set them apart as an incentive. and if you go by this logic, insist your CO, RSM, CSMs to stay in as well.
Eh dude..cool down man..Originally posted by antoh:it depends on your unit .... and how active it is ... like SIRs and SARs
I think to get book out everyday is a bit hard ... but for schools in other unit like SMM, SOCE. Instructors get to book out should be ok .. but not everyday ...
well, get yr freaking idea correct and serve the army
hm.. i think you mean to point out a perceived irregularity, but ended up sounding complainy. if im not mistaken, you think that if the current perceived unfair practise in your unit can be taken to the extreme if regulations are not in place.Originally posted by Ponders:Hey look, i am just asking. I don't need you guys to come back with sarcastic or aggresive replies.
My point is, as an NSF, it is our duty to serve it and yes i do understand there are sacrifices to be made... but the point i am trying to drive is, if there are no guidelines in place to state our book in book out timing, one fine day we can just enlist and see our home 2 years later.
For some of you who think i am just grumpy, book-out minded guy... i am not... it's just that i have recently moved unit and practices are way different. Our off-in-lieu (and i meant OIL not OFFs) are not compensated and we have irresponsible superiors who simply make us book in for an early briefing on Sunday. When asked why the briefing can;t be done earlier before book out, usually their reply is...... we just finished doing the AI.
One of you mentioned there are no GOM inplace for off, in fact there is one existent. It states the difference between, Offs, OIL, Offs as rewards, offs in compassionate grounds.
And if sstaying in meant we can be activated at any point of time, i do not think a non-op unit will make a difference.
Most importantly, i am just trying to have an open discussion rather than have you people shooting me back with sarcasm.
And to the person who said i should lead by example, yes i do draw the line between commanders and men. and commanders should have a certain privileges to set them apart as an incentive. and if you go by this logic, insist your CO, RSM, CSMs to stay in as well.
Okay, let me apologize because I failed to see the gist.You're right, the system does allow for abuses now you've outlined it clearly.And I think we owe you an apology.Originally posted by Ponders:It seems only wuming78 understand what i am trying to drive across..... yes.. he's right... I AM NOT COMPLAINING!!!
I am just saying, there is something wrong in the system. Because our commanders may just get carried away and make us book in earlier and earlier.
To give you a clearer picture, I am not a whiny, always-book out, always ask for offs, always att c or come out with weird reasons kind of person.
But I am amongst a few of these people. It seems that whenever, we are asked to book in early they are never around (will bring up all kinds of reasons). But when there is toned-down training on any particular days, they are the first to ask to clear offs. Leaving us left being to do their work.
End result, we seldom have sufficient break from army. But it has come to a point that in consecutive 2 months i only meet my family on sundays the few hours after booking out sunday morning and booking in early evening. worst, i last met my girlfriend early march.
Why things are like that is because we have a sucky training schedule as my current unit had to suddenly adapt to the NS-cut and all training facilities were previously booked solid by other units. hence only slots open are on weekends to our unit.
K, i know there are enough people in the army who chao keng their way thru to the point i believe some of you stereotype me as one.
But in actual fact, i am just saying, "i am kinda getting tired and i see no rest ahead". so it makes me come to wonder if there is a directive letting us be out of camp at certain ours and if our commanders are given the "power" to distrub us during this time.
because as i said, our commanders can simply make us bookout saturday 3pm and book in sunday 12pm. they will get too carried away.
IN SIMPLER terms.... lets look at the at employment outside SAF. A TYPICAL office worker WILL NOT be disturbed on sundays and PHs. But if they are, they will be compensated duly. An overworked worker will be given 1.5x to 2x wages after certain hours, an accumulated hours exceeding certain hours will be compensated with a day off AND transport subsidy.
A worker will start work 0830 (or as stated in contract) and end 1730 Mondays to Fridays.
To bring back to SAF context, though there is guideline saying any training on Rest days will be compensated.
BUT it has no guideline WHAT TIME the service personnel should book in on that day. And unreasonable OC will just say, ok you all will book in at 1500 hours.
to end off this long note, please avoid personal attacks on my mindset or on my way of thinking. It's not that i am offended, i just think we are not being constructive here.