Will you shoot your countrymen?
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Guys, say one day you are on Mob and you are called back to deal with say 10000 peaceful protestors just sitting infront of parliament. Parliament in currently in session, and the protestors are calling for the resignation of the Trade and Industry minister who they feel was responsible for a recent industrial accident that resulted in the deaths of 100s.
Orders are to disperse them through use of non lethal force. However, they are proving to be very resilent and have vowed to stay until the government addresses their grievances. CS gas, water cannons and Rubber grenades have been deployed angering the protestors and they are now threatening to storm parliament.
You are part of a security force tasked with preventing people from breaching parliament. Use of deadly force has now been authorised.
Will you shoot these protestors? I have heard many instances of ppl here who say that they will fight only for their families and friends.
Personally, i would have a lot of problems shooting these people...
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http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/viewtopic.php?p=891056#891056
MOD's note.Please continue the discussion here. -
duplicated.
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after an internal discussion, i think this thread can be reopened.
the topic is debatable. and anyway, we can widen the scope too:
say during an operation, if you discover that your peers intend to desert or even deflect. what would you do if the situation between yourself and them heats up? at the extreme, would you shoot any one of them?
and what about if someone is spreading rumours amongst your troops, and causing morale and discipline problems, also during operations?
or maybe, under what circumstances would shooting one's own guy(s) be acceptable to you?
anyway, if this thread eventually goes no where, or just dwells in a certain direction, then we would close it again. -
i will shoot my ex-officer in a chaotic situation.
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Singaporean wont go for demostrastion in the first place.
There are effective non-lethal means of dealing with a mob if there is one. -
There are indeed non-lethal ways, if these are not explored and an order comes down to shoot to kill instead..I know where my guns will be pointing.Originally posted by crazy monkey:Singaporean wont go for demostrastion in the first place.
There are effective non-lethal means of dealing with a mob if there is one. -
Originally posted by Respect_the_dead:i will shoot my ex-officer in a chaotic situation.
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That is quite irrelevant isn't it. As mentioned in the scenario above, non-lethal means have been employed and have failed. It has happened b4.Originally posted by crazy monkey:Singaporean wont go for demostrastion in the first place.
There are effective non-lethal means of dealing with a mob if there is one.
The government doesn't have my support at all. Will i shoot my countrymen in order to keep them in power? I find that a difficult question to answer
I think this is where Singapore is very vulnerable. In its pursuit of the very best in technology, the SAF has neglected its most important asset. It has created soldiers that would fight only to protect their families and friends. The oath to protect the state has become mere lip service.
I guess that's where the Gurkhas comes in. -
And God help the Gurkhas if they threaten our families.Originally posted by lwflee:That is quite irrelevant isn't it. As mentioned in the scenario above, non-lethal means have been employed and have failed. It has happened b4.
The government doesn't have my support at all. Will i shoot my countrymen in order to keep them in power? I find that a difficult question to answer
I think this is where Singapore is very vulnerable. In its pursuit of the very best in technology, the SAF has neglected its most important asset. It has created soldiers that would fight only to protect their families and friends. The oath to protect the state has become mere lip service.
I guess that's where the Gurkhas comes in.
We fight to protect the nation and our loved ones,however the legality of an order is determined by the real intent of the government.Singapore will come first, so will her people.I don't think we will kill if the government gives an unlawful order. -
Mob control is job of the police.Originally posted by lwflee:That is quite irrelevant isn't it. As mentioned in the scenario above, non-lethal means have been employed and have failed. It has happened b4.
The government doesn't have my support at all. Will i shoot my countrymen in order to keep them in power? I find that a difficult question to answer
I think this is where Singapore is very vulnerable. In its pursuit of the very best in technology, the SAF has neglected its most important asset. It has created soldiers that would fight only to protect their families and friends. The oath to protect the state has become mere lip service.
I guess that's where the Gurkhas comes in. -
I won't hesitate to shoot my own comrades. I am all it matters, they can die for all they care, less people survive then can have a more 'uniform' story to tell....somethings must be buried and are buried with the dead.
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No, I would be extremely careful not to shoot anyone , Singaporean or not in a non-military / non- police situation. We have to be careful nowadays... the SAF may authorise you to shoot civilians under certain circumstances (e.g. control of looters in a town), and it may be legitimate under SAF regulations and Singapore law.
However, the problem is that the United Nations and the USA, have a tendency to be the ultimate policemen of the world. If they hear that SAF soldiers have shot civilian looters in our AOC, they may force the government to investigate/ prosecute , or worse, they may attempt to arrest SAF soldiers under international law. Plus, nowadays, the world will know about such incidents very quickly, almost real-time, because of the sheer number of media people that are sent to cover hotspots. These journalists and reporters are also very eager and aggressive and will find out the story.
Times have changed for soldiers since the Vietnam War. How we treat POWs and civilians in our AOC will be scrutinised by the world. -
well, seriously, have there been a situwation where after rubber rounds are use, the crowds don't go scrabling for cover? i mean, ok, might be possible if we sre talking about big size europeans and super bug size maoist, but asians? don't think so...
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Mexicans. Police charged them. They Charged back with molotov cocktails.
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Very true.We live in a world where acts of policing are watched by eyes around the world.Originally posted by specfore:No, I would be extremely careful not to shoot anyone , Singaporean or not in a non-military / non- police situation. We have to be careful nowadays... the SAF may authorise you to shoot civilians under certain circumstances (e.g. control of looters in a town), and it may be legitimate under SAF regulations and Singapore law.
However, the problem is that the United Nations and the USA, have a tendency to be the ultimate policemen of the world. If they hear that SAF soldiers have shot civilian looters in our AOC, they may force the government to investigate/ prosecute , or worse, they may attempt to arrest SAF soldiers under international law. Plus, nowadays, the world will know about such incidents very quickly, almost real-time, because of the sheer number of media people that are sent to cover hotspots. These journalists and reporters are also very eager and aggressive and will find out the story.
Times have changed for soldiers since the Vietnam War. How we treat POWs and civilians in our AOC will be scrutinised by the world. -
well, they attack you, means they are saying "bring it on!".Originally posted by lwflee:Mexicans. Police charged them. They Charged back with molotov cocktails.
so once they charge, you can guiltlessly fire back. -
Shooting unarmed civilians can be a crime. Even in war, that may be construed to constitute a war crime. If it goes against the Geneva Convention the order may be illegal and there is no obligation to carry out an illegal order.
German and Japanese soldiers were executed after WWII for such crimes against unarmed civilians, although they said they were only following orders. Not a valid defence... -
Yes.So as soldiers and commanders, we have to bear in mind international law and not shoot unarmed civilians.But the sad thing is that some riot police instigate the civilians to turn violent so that they can fire back in self-defence.Originally posted by oxford mushroom:Shooting unarmed civilians can be a crime. Even in war, that may be construed to constitute a war crime. If it goes against the Geneva Convention the order may be illegal and there is no obligation to carry out an illegal order.
German and Japanese soldiers were executed after WWII for such crimes against unarmed civilians, although they said they were only following orders. Not a valid defence... -
they probably wanted to call it a day and went home to their family. these stand-off can take forever.. esp when the turn-ups double in mere hours..Originally posted by LazerLordz:Yes.So as soldiers and commanders, we have to bear in mind international law and not shoot unarmed civilians.But the sad thing is that some riot police instigate the civilians to turn violent so that they can fire back in self-defence. -
i would storm parliment with the crowd. its time to get rid of the dictators of singapore!
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anyway, just to add on.. recently there was a riot in one of the village in zhejiang, china. a thousand riot police force stormed the village at night and was beaten off by angry villagers. countless of state property (police buses, riot equipment) were lost with several police chiefs in hospital. talk about waiting for the perfect moment to strike.. sigh.Originally posted by YI:they probably wanted to call it a day and went home to their family. these stand-off can take forever.. esp when the turn-ups double in mere hours..
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Haha.Originally posted by HENG@:i would storm parliment with the crowd. its time to get rid of the dictators of singapore! 
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i guess the ROE still stands...
if the government authorise lethal force to be used in a "non-lethal" situation....... i will shoot them 1st
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My opinion is that the Gurkhas will be sought to handle this kind of situations. Unless the whole country is in anarchy. well then bo pian lor!