What makes a good officer?
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nothing wrong if i get posted to diff unit during my service.Originally posted by wuming78:wow. how come u get to encounter so many different unit PCs?
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some Guards unit, 2, 3 and 7BTS, some Armour unit, ATEC OPFOR etc. -
an encik asking his men to buy cigarettes for him is not a good officer in my eyes.
a sergeant "ordering" his men to buy bresakfast for him eventhough the man has no intention of going to the canteen at all is not a good commander in my eyes too. -
A good officer is someone who EARNS respect from both his men and his superiors.
A lot of officers seem to believe that respect can be demanded - sad fcuks. See who will die first during war lor.
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an encik is not an offr. or are you refering to a 2LT.Originally posted by Gordonator:an encik asking his men to buy cigarettes for him is not a good officer in my eyes.
a sergeant "ordering" his men to buy bresakfast for him eventhough the man has no intention of going to the canteen at all is not a good commander in my eyes too.
a sergeant "ordering" his men to buy bresakfast for him should be charge for skipping breakfast.
er... the topic is on officer. why not you start 1 with encik or SGT. YSL -
an encik is an officer - a warrant OFFICER. another point to note: they are members of the officers' mess too. so, they are considered officers, though not commissioned.Originally posted by Joshua1975:an encik is not an offr. or are you refering to a 2LT.
a sergeant "ordering" his men to buy bresakfast for him should be charge for skipping breakfast.
er... the topic is on officer. why not you start 1 with encik or SGT. YSL -
Indeed.Those in command should shoulder most of their own duties instead of diverting everything to their underlings.Originally posted by wuming78:wow. how come u get to encounter so many different unit PCs?
anyway, i do agree that the cited example is one of misuse of authority. if the PC has nothing else urgent to attend to, he should (both morally, and as a show of leadership by example) clean his own weapon. and this applies to some other work too. delegation is inevitable in command positions. however, one has to consider carefully what to delegate, and the possible consequences of it. -
Those kinds of behavior are the most commonplace..and it results in low morale in the long term.Originally posted by Gordonator:an encik asking his men to buy cigarettes for him is not a good officer in my eyes.
a sergeant "ordering" his men to buy bresakfast for him eventhough the man has no intention of going to the canteen at all is not a good commander in my eyes too. -
it really contradict from the offr core. face it like an officer. dun fool yourself, will a 2LT salute a SWO?Originally posted by wuming78:an encik is an officer - a warrant OFFICER. another point to note: they are members of the officers' mess too. so, they are considered officers, though not commissioned.
"are considered officers, though not commissioned"
a member of offr mess doesn't make one a commissioned officer. SAF never admit that WOSE are officer even though WOSE do hold "officer appointment" in today SAF and it just due to lack of manpower as the main reason.
when the days where CO of SISPEC, SAFWOSE are held by an WOSE. maybe by than. but still will a 2LT salute a SWO? -
well it had happened and i think it still going on in SAF. face it. want to know more what one other thing these YSL i met had ask other to do for them? asking sect comd to do for them the overlay, maybe that is why they always get lost during an ex.Originally posted by wuming78:wow. how come u get to encounter so many different unit PCs?
anyway, i do agree that the cited example is one of misuse of authority. if the PC has nothing else urgent to attend to, he should (both morally, and as a show of leadership by example) clean his own weapon. and this applies to some other work too. delegation is inevitable in command positions. however, one has to consider carefully what to delegate, and the possible consequences of it.
well i just dun understand why and what has the NE teach them at all. incase you guys dun know what NE is, NE ~ national education. maybe it not thought in SAF anymore.Originally posted by LazerLordz:Indeed.Those in command should shoulder most of their own duties instead of diverting everything to their underlings.
comon, after an ex, there are tons of store need to be clear which need manpower to carry out and as a PC, if you can not help, the least you can do is clean your own stuff like weapon. -
it's not about NE, it's about what OCS has not taught them.That all soldiers are cogs in the SAF, if the big gear slows down, the small gears cannot ever hope to move faster.Originally posted by Joshua1975:well i just dun understand why and what has the NE teach them at all. incase you guys dun know what NE is, NE ~ national education. maybe it not thought in SAF anymore.
comon, after an ex, there are tons of store need to be clear which need manpower to carry out and as a PC, if you can not help, the least you can do is clean your own stuff like weapon. -
i really din see why an encik was in the picture? anyway, asking man to buy things from canteen do happen but as for buying cigarettes... hummm which camp do sell? if booking out why still need to ask the man to buy for him?Originally posted by Gordonator:an encik asking his men to buy cigarettes for him is not a good officer in my eyes.
a sergeant "ordering" his men to buy bresakfast for him eventhough the man has no intention of going to the canteen at all is not a good commander in my eyes too.
i see your intention and it not very good at all, say for benefit of the doubt. Yes but try give facts and things that really happened and happen all the time.
than it must have been very long and for times to come.Originally posted by LazerLordz:Those kinds of behavior are the most commonplace..and it results in low morale in the long term.
so what and where are the roots cause? school? OCS? SISPEC? BMTC? who give this example for this new offr and spec to follow? -
i mean NE in the SAF context. forget that, i think it not in the program anymore and if it is, than it had gone fcuk.Originally posted by LazerLordz:it's not about NE, it's about what OCS has not taught them.That all soldiers are cogs in the SAF, if the big gear slows down, the small gears cannot ever hope to move faster.
looks like me the small gear is moving faster or i had just break off and spin on my own yah. so it too bad there is much i can do about it.
talking about big and small, can i put it that a 2LT is big gear and a 3 SGT sect comd is small gear? so do you mean all 2LT slow down? or maybe spec and wose are not the gear at all to you? -
with regards to the gear anology. the current CDF visited our Bn. During the evening at the mess, he was relating to us what consitutes a well oiled Infantry Bn. He posed the question to us, YSL ( the whole lot of us just got posted there) " Are your section commanders ready to lead his men ?"Originally posted by Joshua1975:i mean NE in the SAF context. forget that, i think it not in the program anymore and if it is, than it had gone fcuk.
looks like me the small gear is moving faster or i had just break off and spin on my own yah. so it too bad there is much i can do about it.
talking about big and small, can i put it that a 2LT is big gear and a 3 SGT sect comd is small gear? so do you mean all 2LT slow down? or maybe spec and wose are not the gear at all to you?
From his prespective, once the section commander is able to lead his section as he was taught to, with the PC letting his section do their work while ensuring the Coys intent,thats the way the battle should be fought.
i have met my fair share of fellow officers who use their runners as servants. And i am sad to say that most of them have no empathy for their men under them.So of their runners are willing to accept the actions by their PCs while others jus grumble and get it done to avoid repercussion.
I was hated by my PLT when i took over from my upper study due to my No nonsense attitude towards monkeying ,regimentation, turn out. As time passes by, i realised that respect could not be demanded, but by empathy and knowing my men and commander's role within the PLT. i listened to their problems, analysed their reasoning for such conduct, it was the different frequency i was on.
I brought myself to their frequency, stated my expectations in their lingo and they did their work.I am not hiding behind the fact that my PLT hated me. Infact i have to thank them for hating me, in order to bring me down to their world and i had become more listening than ever, and my loved ones also feel i listen more and act accordingly. -
just 1 question. does the chain of command stop at section commander? Yes? No?Originally posted by one-niner:with regards to the gear anology. the current CDF visited our Bn. During the evening at the mess, he was relating to us what consitutes a well oiled Infantry Bn. He posed the question to us, YSL ( the whole lot of us just got posted there) " Are your section commanders ready to lead his men ?"
From his prespective, once the section commander is able to lead his section as he was taught to, with the PC letting his section do their work while ensuring the Coys intent,thats the way the battle should be fought.
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than my question will be:"are the man ready to take over command?"
too many a time and unit i saw during my service in ATEC as an OPFOR PL SGT and as a WO Trg Co-ord, when a sect comd is down and you will get to see the whole sect stop moving. why? where is the PC? PL SGT? and in this case the sect 2IC where?
Guess what happened at Platoon level, the PC down? the whole platoon stop moving... wtf. they dun even know how to move back or take cover but stay in the open. well maybe no rounds are firing at them.
Now the question i really want to ask CDF but will never happen unless he read this... lol
Can the Platoon SGT of today take over command from the PC? -
that is the problem with new YSL... xin guan shan ren san ba huo.Originally posted by one-niner:I was hated by my PLT when i took over from my upper study due to my No nonsense attitude towards monkeying ,regimentation, turn out. As time passes by, i realised that respect could not be demanded, but by empathy and knowing my men and commander's role within the PLT. i listened to their problems, analysed their reasoning for such conduct, it was the different frequency i was on.
I brought myself to their frequency, stated my expectations in their lingo and they did their work.I am not hiding behind the fact that my PLT hated me. Infact i have to thank them for hating me, in order to bring me down to their world and i had become more listening than ever, and my loved ones also feel i listen more and act accordingly.
"As time passes by" ... lol and thing dun get to work out as you had in mind is what you mean right... LOL
question by higher command why the platoon was in this way so on and so for. i dun know if you had a reg. or NSF PL SGT. i am one PL SGT and always get question by OC why i din help my PC in the 1st place? LOL... in the 1st place he must be willing to and when he is not why should i help? i had no time just for him as i had another 20 odd guys waiting for me in the platoon. let him learn the hard way is the best way out for him. let him bring the whole platoon into a killing zone during an ex. is the best way for him to lower himself. OC asked why the platoon was in the killing zone? man will tell, i dun have to say a word at all.
LOL... when i was in OCS... blah blah blah....
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there should not be an overemphasis on one single role for junior commanders.If the PC is down, the PS or the next senior specialist must be able to think on the move and get the engine running again.Originally posted by one-niner:with regards to the gear anology. the current CDF visited our Bn. During the evening at the mess, he was relating to us what consitutes a well oiled Infantry Bn. He posed the question to us, YSL ( the whole lot of us just got posted there) " Are your section commanders ready to lead his men ?"
From his prespective, once the section commander is able to lead his section as he was taught to, with the PC letting his section do their work while ensuring the Coys intent,thats the way the battle should be fought.
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Overdependancy on one individual runs the risk of catastrophic mission failure and overgrown egos.
This can be applied very aptly to running a country too. -
even it is so urgent that he need to attend imm, it is still his own weapon.Originally posted by wuming78:... ... ...
anyway, i do agree that the cited example is one of misuse of authority. if the PC has nothing else urgent to attend to, he should (both morally, and as a show of leadership by example) clean his own weapon. and this applies to some other work too. delegation is inevitable in command positions. however, one has to consider carefully what to delegate, and the possible consequences of it.
what oaths did you cite or what type arm presentation ceremony you had during your BMT? i was wondering, did you take one in the 1st place? -
Go to the ppl, live with them, learn from them.
Lead with them, not yourself. -
Okay..to be fair..the PC can just ensure he cleans the rifle while on the way back or when his Sect Comds are giving lectures.Originally posted by Joshua1975:even it is so urgent that he need to attend imm, it is still his own weapon.
what oaths did you cite or what type arm presentation ceremony you had during your BMT? i was wondering, did you take one in the 1st place?
Let's say..post-exercise situation.PC and platoon are back at coy line.All the guys prepare to clean arms..coy clerk comes up to PC and tells him S3 wants to see him asap.Can he disobey the S3's orders and tell him to wait till he cleans his rifle?By right it should not pose a problem, but operational culture is at work here.And sadly enough, staff work takes precedence over the individual soldiering duties of a PC very often.As long as he doesn't arrow his tired troopers to clean it for him, I would say he has done sufficient.The Armskote Specialist should remind him to clean and maintain the rifle asap when he returns.
What do you guys think? -
A good officer is one who knows when and what to do when required - thinking officer/soldier.
- doesn't falter when a clear decision or direction is needed in a very short time (command and control).
- thinks like his men and put himself in their shoes when there is work to be done.
Rank is what you wear, respect is what you earned.
The soldiers know very well which PC, OC, CO they want to be with when the button is pressed!
Care for others (troopers) and others will care for you (commander). A soldier is willing to help his officer clean his rifle if the officer is willing to help clean the platoon's GPMG.
I once read in Pioneer a story when Lim Neo Chian was still the Cdmr of 3 Div. He route marched with his division in SBO helmet rifle. He was not in the GP car or landrover.
In any case, I feel that it is improper for an officer to ask his men to clean his rifle for him even though he is not free. Since he is an officier, he is paid more and therefore should do more, even this means giving up his sleeping time to clean his own rifle.
I think, sometimes, people forget that we are in national service. We go to the army to serve the country and not to serve the rank that someone wears. May be this is why some NS units are better motivated that NSF units. -
Okay..to be fair... which PC draw arm everyday like the man do? face it. draw arm in the early morning, PC where? still in bunk sleeping? want me to say it out? PC still get runner to draw arm for them and best still sign for them as well. well maybe PC can do the can not.Originally posted by LazerLordz:Okay..to be fair..the PC can just ensure he cleans the rifle while on the way back or when his Sect Comds are giving lectures.
Let's say..post-exercise situation.PC and platoon are back at coy line.All the guys prepare to clean arms..coy clerk comes up to PC and tells him S3 wants to see him asap.Can he disobey the S3's orders and tell him to wait till he cleans his rifle?By right it should not pose a problem, but operational culture is at work here.And sadly enough, staff work takes precedence over the individual soldiering duties of a PC very often.As long as he doesn't arrow his tired troopers to clean it for him, I would say he has done sufficient.The Armskote Specialist should remind him to clean and maintain the rifle asap when he returns.
What do you guys think?
post ex... coy line... all guys... clean arms... S3?
have you had your 1st ex. or were you one who ask runner to clean your rifle? before the man can clean arm, they have store to clear.
wat operational culture is at work here? clean weapon half way, S3 call... assemble the rifle, bring it along to see S3. any problem? do the S3 call everytime after an ex? i dun think so.
"staff work takes precedence over the individual soldiering duties of a PC very often" than he is very ineffective as a PC all at all and it oni in the camp we are talking now, in field how? forget that.
Let just talk about after BN ex. which end on friday late afternoon.
back in camp,
for offr ~ CO might want a AAR right away but most of the time will be the next day.
~ OC want AAR form all PC right away.
~ PC never do AAR with the platoon.
for CSM, he want the coy store to be clean and return of which most are draw out by the platoons.
for PS, he want the platoon store to be clean and return to coy store.
for sect comd he want the sect store to be clean and report any damage or lost.
anyone in here ever saw a PC help in clearing store? I never.
PS get the whole platoon (take away runner) clean the store together. those need to wash and air dry will leave it in the sq to air. all man clean weapons together.
PS check weapon, clean and ready to send arm. after declare and send arm and still need to collect the dry store and send in store. all still in no.4, no one goes up bunk at all till all things need to be done are done.
so where is the PC all this time? well no AAR from CO till next day, OC AAR was short, he din do AAR with the platoon, just pass the weapon to the runner tell him to clean for him, he went back bunk, take a good bath, a short nap, change and ready to book out.
btw if S3 need to look for him, he must have super cockup somewhere during the ex. or a excuse to get away.
let just say CO want an AAR right away, he should pull through a few time, oil it well, send arm or safe lock than clean the arm at a later time or the next day draw arm and carry on cleaning. -
ok lah, to be fair for all PCs in the SAF, not all are like that lah
at least during my active unit and now reservist unit, the PCs that took over my platoon have done a good job.
what i mean by good job, they will show us the leadership by doing it first, and the platoon to follow him.
example, the first PC for my platoon took the initiative to come down every morning to do 5BX with the sect comds and men. that i truly respect...
he also tries to clean his own weapon, but if he is really not free and if someone in the platoon was excused from the exercise, he'll arrow them to clean the platoon weapons while the rest who came back from exercise do the stores. This has been our culture till now in reservist and everyone is happy about it.
this first PC downgraded halfway thru' due to injury and 2nd PC took over. though more slack, but he will take the responsibility if ever the platoon screws up... therefore he had taken alot of arrows (extras) on behalf of the platoons and ended up doing quite a few DOO.. heheheh...
this 2nd PC then signed on when we ORD'ed and his NSF ending coz' at that point of time job market not very good
now comes the last PC, he joined us last year during our 2nd yr ICT. although it's his first time taking a PC role in a unit (previously an instructor in school during NSF), he have shown that he have what it takes to shoulder the responsibility to motivate the men and the cmdrs' by going to their level and talking to them.
and it was also during this ICT that he took the blame for a stupid screw up caused by the Bn HQ and ultimately the S3 putting the blame on our platoon.
feeling wronged, the PC and us (sect comds) went to reason with the CO but ultimately have to take some shit (coz' he is CO)...
initially the CO wanted to punish the whole platoon, but our PC and us decided that we'll take the responsibility and be punished instead of the men.
so, respect have to be earned. don't just talk the talk. -
agreed on not all but 1 is just too many dun you think so? and most unit have these type of PCs around.Originally posted by 12qwaszx:ok lah, to be fair for all PCs in the SAF, not all are like that lah
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... ... ..therefore he had taken alot of arrows (extras) on behalf of the platoons and ended up doing quite a few DOO... ... ...
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you should pray and thanks your god for he oni take arrows or wat you call extras as it was during peacetime. wat if he need to bring you frontline, he will not be taking aroow but live rounds and together with him, your whole platoon will take it together with him. and from your post, it look like 1 time arrow is not enough for him to turn for the better.
let pull away from Coy line and go over BN HQ, all the Dy Ss, same YSL, for sure will get the clerks to clean weapon for them, i dun know why?
be it you have lobo with you or not, the point is, the weapon you draw out and holding, it is still you weapon. -
Scrap the officer's mess and specialist mess system...get a common mess...just like what the israelis do....this is to instil esprit-de-corp and get to know their men better........
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i guess there's not much of a choice unless we clone only good PCs...
or else, there are bound to have some black sheeps around at all levels, not just PC........ (we've also quite a screw up sect cmdr in our PL too)
I don't have much contact with those Dy but I agree that as much as possible, try to clean your own weapon. coz' you gotta' depend on it when rnds start flying. it's your wife for a good reason!!!