What makes a good officer?
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I've always believed that before you can lead a platoon, you must know the fundamentals of leading a section beforehand.So that you as a PC will be able to anticipate section problems and adjust the platoon accordingly.Originally posted by one-niner:alright well u got experience and age on your side. Your experiences are difinitely greater than what i gone through, u might have even trained my brother and his frens when he enlisted in 7 BTS back in July 1996 for his BMT if you were still in 7 BTS.
I empthaise with u for the kinda of officers u have met and worked with. I know your going to cringe when i say this but during my time as a cadet, my PC was a Guards Officer who converted from a Specialist. Therefore he imparted his knowlege of being a specialist and how it will affect our command and command in terms of the Plt, Company and Bn.
He demanded alot from us as cadets as he knew how the specs will look upon the PC for command and the standard we would demand next time. during your tour, u might have met him in 3rd Guards as a PC back in 1998. He was posted back as an OC back in 2003 with 3rd Guards.
Well with regards to the transformation of the WOSE core, i do belive the current changes made to it will be of greater impact than ever , since all commanders have to attend SISPEC before embarking on to OCS.it should provide them with better understanding of specialist role, allowing them to excel in section leadership, before embarking for plt leadership training. -
LOL... if it really me who train your brother, than your brother must be "lucky" to have me as a SGT.Originally posted by one-niner:alright well u got experience and age on your side. Your experiences are difinitely greater than what i gone through, u might have even trained my brother and his frens when he enlisted in 7 BTS back in July 1996 for his BMT if you were still in 7 BTS.
I empthaise with u for the kinda of officers u have met and worked with. I know your going to cringe when i say this but during my time as a cadet, my PC was a Guards Officer who converted from a Specialist. Therefore he imparted his knowlege of being a specialist and how it will affect our command and command in terms of the Plt, Company and Bn.
He demanded alot from us as cadets as he knew how the specs will look upon the PC for command and the standard we would demand next time. during your tour, u might have met him in 3rd Guards as a PC back in 1998. He was posted back as an OC back in 2003 with 3rd Guards.
Well with regards to the transformation of the WOSE core, i do belive the current changes made to it will be of greater impact than ever , since all commanders have to attend SISPEC before embarking on to OCS.it should provide them with better understanding of specialist role, allowing them to excel in section leadership, before embarking for plt leadership training.
too bad, i was there as instructor in 1995 and just a 4mths tour and nope i had not met that officer of your as well as i had leave the force in early 98. my last tour ATEC WO Trg. Co-ord. -
ok. wont dwell on the commissioned and non-commissioned point. think it is simply a case of lousy communication somewhere.Originally posted by Joshua1975:your ques on how would having such a system solve the manpower problem? and the answer will be... lets just say all PCs in SISPEC are LTA and when they ORD, where will they be going or i should say who will they be leading in the reserve? Do you know how many redundant LTA we have in the past in the reserve? if cutting down of redundant LTA in reserve does not solve ONE of the manpower problem, i dun know what else is.
but taking this point on manpower, so are you suggesting that the motivation for establishing the specialist and WO corp is to solve a manpower problem you brought up above? so how many redundant LTA do we have in reserve in the past? maybe you are trying to put across a point, but perhaps it is not immediately apparent to me what it is. -
well. your reply did not offend me. i was just wondering how i offended you in the first place to make you make personal attacks on me in your reply. there is nothing wrong with being direct in delivering a point. but that does not mean you need to attack a person in the process. perhaps that is your style.Originally posted by Joshua1975:if the reply had make you feel offended, well that me. i dun hit around the bushes. if it mean something to you or it hit some point in you, than go think about it. i can do nothing about it. i am a SGT who many OC wish to have but dun like to talk with.
from your comparison, it totally out... and i mean way out. PC and not S3 we are talking here. next point you went out is we are talking about end of ex and not during an ex.
cleaning of own personal weapon. even so it during an ex or better still in a ops, i dun think you will like someone else to clean your weapon, will you when in a ops? if in a ops you will and ex will not, ie you dun take your training seriously enough.
i agreed on the organisation did pay his subordinates to "assist" him. him as in S3 not a PC in Coy line as he dun have that.
just to clear, "assist" in "work" not "personal favour"
get back to the point own "personal" weapon... can the S3 subordinates go in his place to the toilet for him, ie to say the ops SGT peed for his S3?
segregation of roles... platoon runner dun clean weapon for his PC as it is a personal weapon. PERSONAL.
so what is the difference between a PC and an S3 (other than their rank and amount of responsibility)? arent they both officers? then, arent they both suppose to fulfil functions as such - different degrees maybe, of planning and actual command.
as i mentioned in my very first post, the PC SHOULD clean his own weapon, if he has nothing else urgent that he has to attend to. if the weapon (and whatever other personnel directly or indirectly related to it) can wait, then of course, he SHOULD attend to the business, and return to clean and send it himself. i apply this even to the S3, and in fact, EVERYONE.
the same division of labour applies for the PC too, but of course he has less assistants since he has a smaller job scope (than the S3). but his runner is supposed to assist him. and if there is a need for the runner (or any assistant) to help clean the supervisor's weapon, that is not favour, but responsibility. we may argue over this definition of need, but i think it is pointless, just as how it is pointless to argue over how one prioritises his time. -
finally! we all do share common grounds dont we? and i think that is not surprising in itself. but how one delivers his opinion can sometimes be more impactful than the message itself, causing people to be distracted and to misunderstand. a more nuanced approach, perhaps?Originally posted by Joshua1975:if it a job need to be done than it a job need to be done. he can, must, shall, have to get his subordinates to do "ANYTHING" but for sure not his own thing or it will be like what you had mention "power corrupts" in him.
and yes its IMPOSSIBLE to have a hand in everything but one can have eye and ears to everything.
i dun see how can one feel "awkward" when delegate jobs to man to complete with the higher command intend for the benefit for all as a whole? unless it for one own benefit.
my point is clear, if an officer can not clean his own weapon, to me he is not a good officer or maybe you may like it that i put it as dun have a good character.
anyway i guess it boils down to
1. what is "his own thing" - one's area of responsibility.
2. a person being himself first, before he being an officer, specialist, men, etc.
i felt uncomfortable with your posts, because it seems to me what you are saying is that
1. ALL officers (or young officers, or PCs in particular) are brats who throw their "own stuff" to their men to do
2. ONLY officers (or young offices, or PCs in particular) conduct themselves this way.
not so fair isnt it? i know you said that's how you deliver your message. perhaps you would like to qualify your statements, so that it wont be too blunt. the last thing i want is a flame war here. im sure you agree with me.
i have met my fair share of lousy officers, but i have met good ones too. the same applies to specialists and WOs. anyway i still think it is nonsense to try to compare them - its comparing apples with oranges rite?
i guess it may be because of the system, and because of the title, hence people have different kinds of feelings and expectations on this group. yes, we should demand the best of them. but only highlighting the bad but not praising the good is not the only way to do that rite? if you have a child, is this how you are going to teach him? im sure that's not the case.
so in our discussion of "what makes a GOOD officer", rather than harping on what a good officer should not do, shall we also focus on what he should do, in the positive sense?
i hope i have not misunderstood you, or anyone else here. -
the ability to play a decent game of pool...
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I remember my S3 ask his spec to clean the weapon for him while he go eat canteen with other overpaid regulars.Originally posted by Joshua1975:quote:What makes a good officer?
+1.
one who clean his own rifle. i had come across 6 PC and all in diff unit and my mine, all of them get the runner clean the rifle for them. and guess what they do? go back bunk, wash up, take a nap and get ready to book out when arms clear!!! -
Ya,last time in my unit,commanders(3SG and above) wear different coloured vests and singletsOriginally posted by riken1974:Scrap the officer's mess and specialist mess system...get a common mess...just like what the israelis do....this is to instil esprit-de-corp and get to know their men better........ -
Another abuse of rank..translated slightly higher.Originally posted by Marco_Simone:I remember my S3 ask his spec to clean the weapon for him while he go eat canteen with other overpaid regulars.
It sucks to be a 3SG in a unit with many CPTs, MAJs and LTCs
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not really - ask those in mindef.Originally posted by LazerLordz:Another abuse of rank..translated slightly higher.
It sucks to be a 3SG in a unit with many CPTs, MAJs and LTCs
when there are a whole lot of crabs and bars, they tend to be more meek since they themselves may be "preyed" on.
when officers are few, they are simply throw their weights around.
that's why a CPT and MAJ is almost "godly" in the units, but are like underlings at mindef. -
Haha, indeed.But my scenario could entirely be possible..e.g at BDE or DIV HQs.Originally posted by wuming78:not really - ask those in mindef.
when there are a whole lot of crabs and bars, they tend to be more meek since they themselves may be "preyed" on.
when officers are few, they are simply throw their weights around.
that's why a CPT and MAJ is almost "godly" in the units, but are like underlings at mindef. -
i'll like to add on.Originally posted by Gordonator:the ability to lead by example, to influence, to motivate and to inspire his men.
a officer must also be able to put themselves in their men's shoes. understand what they are going through, giving them enough walfare but not compromising the job at hand. appreciate/praise/reward them if they have done well. -
correct... walfare. my man get "shIt" from me during GCC. till OC must talk to me to cool down a bit but it a no from me.Originally posted by Gordonator:i'll like to add on.
a officer must also be able to put themselves in their men's shoes. understand what they are going through, giving them enough walfare but not compromising the job at hand. appreciate/praise/reward them if they have done well.
than there is one time just after oversea and all back in camp. it was a monday morning... all have nothing to do but IBM... training program oni put admin and it admin for the whole day...
OC on leave, PC dun know where, look for Coy 2IC, anything for my platoon to do? he say nothing and that is what i want to heard. ask for day off for my guys. he think about it and say ok... tell CSM to cancel lunch (lunch fresh cook by cook house)
this is what i tell my platoon.
me : Platoon 3. (shorting from coy line)
PL IC : Yes SGT. (4th floor)
me : 5min change into civilian and fall in. (that's the bad thing about me)
PL IC : SGT. change civi for what?
me : You left 3min. (think back... me bad huh)
LOL... the whole platoon book out in 20min. And after that i was thinking what will they be doing outside? hahaaaa....
btw why i can get day off for my guy.
1. coy get best in thailand.
2. we got best platoon.
3. i am a good SGT...