does our ladies really understand about NS?
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Frankly speaking your arguments holds no water to me.Originally posted by CKtalon:It doesn't need to be well trained to cause damage.
They can lose hundreds of thousands of lives, while because we are well trained, we only lose thousands of lives.
The post war impact will cause Singapore to crumble since the people fighting are day to day engineers, teachers, odd-job workers, blue-collar workers, etc, so we still lose the war although we won the battle
I for one can't be bothered to argue with people like you because you have already chosen what you want to hear and you have formed your own opinion.
Just like you writing a whole lot of theories which I don't believe in.
So there's no point arguing the good or bad points of the SAF/NS when everyone has their individual views already etched into their minds. Either you're for it or you're against it. -
again i am very bemused to say the least about the ladies issue again. guys do not really understand ns and perpetuate that impression that saf cannot fight and will lose a war. if u have the opportunity to see for yourself the type of arsenal that our neighbours have, you would be confident that we will win.
artillery rounds might land in singapore. but chances are that our airforce will take them out much sooner then they can fire. thats why artillery has develop the primus and the shoot and scoot doctrine.
many girls although whiny are made of tougher material than u really know. they are not stronger physically but psychologically they are there. it just takes the event for them to show it.
what makes you think that girls have not done route march and gone for field camps that you have gone through. the weight that they carry is the same as most guys, but their physical size is so much smaller than you yet they walkt he same distance. for an average guy, he weighs 70kg but the full gear is just around 18 kg. a lady weighs 40-55kg and carries the same weight.
NS being not compulsory for ladies is not a cause to complain. if they do not understand is it because guys perpetuate the impression that it is a walk in the park. how many guys think it is a waste of time? why should ladies think otherwise and appreciate if their friends come out every weekend complaining that they are slaves.
truely if ladies were to understand and appreciate all these, its also part of the average joe's job to communicate that to them. the fact that someone who has gone through ns is not confident of our fighting capabilities says a lot about the person and his attitude and knowledge of the organisation.
its time to stop this guy vs gal war and that girls do not understand or appreciate your precious time spent in the army. what do you really want from the girls? kowtowing and bestowing of sexual favours to feed your egos? really society has its division of labours and roles. just accept it. -
to wocc,
u sai<>
u are not comparing like with like. Division of labour is not about males serving NS, while females continue with their education or enter the work force. True divison of labout is when females are conscripted to do admin work for 2 years, while males handle the tougher combat vocations. -
Even the so call male counterparts are half-hearted about NS... how u expect the female to fully understand? All along i believe female are the more stronger in term of mindset like compare to male...most male are just whinner or always grumbing..about this and that..Originally posted by chikopek:it seems like many of the singaporean girls like to complain here and there on their male counterparts. they doesn't seem to be appreciate their male counterpart's efforts and sacification in protecting n servicing the country
do you think that our females really understand about NS? or should the government make them compulsory to serve NS (but not in combat)? -
there is no denying that women are mentally stronger than men.
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talk is cheap ba.
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wah imagine if ALL the nsfs on strike for one day....how arh? eeh eh very feasible idea leh. mindef will CHUI man...and i cant even begin to imagine if they will get charged, and how.
i suggest let ALL the girls go for one month NS..go through the same modules eg field camp, soc... ladies always say guys only like to talk about their army days, when they go through the same thing i'd like to see them try to shut up about it! -
I am in favour of national service for all Singaporeans, male and female. Everyone should serve the 2 years (I did 2.5 years my time) and the 13-year reservist cycles. Women will be deployed mainly to public hospitals and trained as assistant nurses; the rest to the police force and civil defence force. We leave the option open for some to go into the army but that should remain a minority.
Israel has a similar system of compulsory national service for all...we should follow. -
I bet you are not a geography student?Originally posted by CKtalon:It doesn't need to be well trained to cause damage.
They can lose hundreds of thousands of lives, while because we are well trained, we only lose thousands of lives.
The post war impact will cause Singapore to crumble since the people fighting are day to day engineers, teachers, odd-job workers, blue-collar workers, etc, so we still lose the war although we won the battle
Neither do I suppose you understood the concept of "total defence", in particular the aspect of psychological defence. If anything, you display the very mindset the psychological aspect of national defence will be trying to correct. Perhaps it dosent work for you, but there is nothing to say it dosent work for others.
I completed my NS a few years ago, and no, I dont think I want to consider going through it again. Like most of my peers, I was looking forward to ORD as well. That said, you dont find me going round saying NS was a complete waste of time in every sense of the word. And for that matter, please do note that not everyone who declares SAF as a waste of time is neccesarily saying it based on the same factors. Some, like yourself, thinks defending a small country like Singapore is physically impossible. Others may think its a waste of time because of manpower and training issues.
You feel Singaporeans will go into a panicky frenzy when an arty shell explodes here. Well...that shell isnt going to come without any warning, so do you think Singapores will need that long to freak out? Instead, I am much more worried about the effects of an unexpected terrorist attack.
I am quite amused when you question the operational readiness of our reservists. I do wonder if you are one yourself, because if so, your impression does happen to be a tiny minority. Unfortunately, people seem to be consumed by talks of the inefficienty of our NSF guys, and presume the NSmen are in a worse state of affairs. Well...quite the opposite actually.
Finally, you make plenty of assumptions on expected social responses to a military attack. But until a war actually breaks out, I must point out its almost impossible to make such predictions. As some have pointed out, in times of war when retreat is not an option, and the realisation that the protection of loved ones, and all we hold dear rests solely on us and no one else starts to sink in, who knows how many will throw up their hands in despair, and who will be galvanised to take up arms and fight to the last?
Sometimes, the choice isnt even given to you.
Whatever the case, I dont expect you to suddenly change your stance overnight. I would just hope that you would spend a little time reflecting on what you presume as the definitive thruth, and considering adopting a more eclectic viewpoint before settling back to whatever position you happen to be comfortable in. -
Why is it not a cause for complaint? It seems really unfair and illogical to me. Like you said, many girls are very tough, so why not make them serve NS? At most, you can make them nurses, instructors or clerks. These vocations require more mental toughness than physical toughness. Since many ladies are very tough psychologically, it would appear logical that these positions be filled by them.Originally posted by wocc:NS being not compulsory for ladies is not a cause to complain. if they do not understand is it because guys perpetuate the impression that it is a walk in the park. how many guys think it is a waste of time? why should ladies think otherwise and appreciate if their friends come out every weekend complaining that they are slaves.
truely if ladies were to understand and appreciate all these, its also part of the average joe's job to communicate that to them. the fact that someone who has gone through ns is not confident of our fighting capabilities says a lot about the person and his attitude and knowledge of the organisation.
its time to stop this guy vs gal war and that girls do not understand or appreciate your precious time spent in the army. what do you really want from the girls? kowtowing and bestowing of sexual favours to feed your egos? really society has its division of labours and roles. just accept it.
What? The fact is that some comments made by them have given the impression that many of them do not appreciate the sarcrifices we have made. Like i said, they need to shut the f*** up and let us be.
And what has this got to do with division of labour in society? Because we are male, we should be compelled to give up two long f****** years of our life? Because we are male we should be tied to this country through reserve service? And the females, they - uh - get ahead in the job market?
Crap. Its high time the ladies get what they have been clamouring for: Gender Equality. Well, ladies, with equal rights come equal burdens. How about you ladies start shouldering some of the burden?
In the mean time, shut up.
editted by mod: expletives, expletives... -
seriously guys dont appreciate this NS thing at all so why should girls. if u really want people to understand project the right image and not complain that it is a waste of time. the impression is an image perpertrated by guys.
it is not true that girls get ahead in the jobs market by reason of their non NS liability. in fact, it is still true that woman who are doing the same jobs are paid much lower than man in the job market as employers prefer to promote man over woman because they are the ones who would take childcare leave and maternity leave and so on. this is soemthing that girls have to accept. they may start work earlier but seriously they do not earn more.
division of labour does not truely mean that all girls become nurses or clerks doing admin work. just like not all guys are cut out to be combat soldiers, neither are all girls meant to be nurses. to compare our situation with the israelis is a bit uncalled for. you must see beyond that two years that you are serving to that of the economy of the nation. we can conscript the girls into army for an equivalent two years. it might damage our economy, you might have to halve your current NS allowance. the motivation of concripting girls should not be just to even the playing fields to satisfy your albeit senseless call for equality there must be a real need for it as the cost is tremendous. singapore would have to double its defence budget. are u willing to suffer cuts in the areas of education and healthcare?
then what about a month in bmt just for the experience? three months is insufficient to train a soldier properly. if we just put them through army for a month, what is your objective? to make them talk about army more? or to show them what you guys go through? there must be a proper aim and objectives to be achieve you want to carry out such a plan.
i never said that woman should not appreciate NS or they cant appreciate it. however to be appreciated by others, there is a clear need for you guys to appreciate it. true two years is a long time. but its for u to make it a positive experience.
and its says a lot about u if you have to resort to expletives to get your point across. -
Originally posted by wocc:
Then pray tell, what does YOUR concept of division of labour entail?
division of labour does not truely mean that all girls become nurses or clerks doing admin work. just like not all guys are cut out to be combat soldiers, neither are all girls meant to be nurses. to compare our situation with the israelis is a bit uncalled for. you must see beyond that two years that you are serving to that of the economy of the nation. [/b]
You rejected my concept, did not offer an alternative, and flitted to another point made by another person.
Come on, face the argument head-on like a MAN. Oops you are "wocc", which I assume is an indication that you are a member of the women's officers cadet course? ahem.
Be seen and not heard. -
division of labour does not truely mean that all girls become nurses or clerks doing admin work. just like not all guys are cut out to be combat soldiers, neither are all girls meant to be nurses. to compare our situation with the israelis is a bit uncalled for. you must see beyond that two years that you are serving to that of the economy of the nation. we can conscript the girls into army for an equivalent two years. it might damage our economy, you might have to halve your current NS allowance.
Exactly...not all guys are cut out to be combat soldiers but they do not have the luxury of opting out. So why should girls be exempt if we are to be truly egalitarian?
The argument about the economy is tried and without basis. This is simply a regurgitation of an old argument. Firstly, how much do these girls contribute to the economy at 18? They are mostly students..Secondly, an 18-year old guy can contribute as much as an 18-year old girl to the economy. If the economy is really going to suffer that much by having all 18-year olds in national service, we can stagger NS so that both boys and girls can serve their 2 years of NS within a period of say, 10 years. If you want to let some of them out of NS to support the economy, fine...but let it be a 50:50 mix of the genders. Thirdly, having the girls in our pubic hospitals as assistant nurses will relieve the severe shortage of nursing staff, allows registered nurses to do higher-quality nursing work and by removing our reliance on foreign nurses, greatly improve the economy indeed. Remember a foreign assistant nurse is paid at least $800 a month. Most NS boys get a fraction of that.. -
I believe many girls actually attended OBS, made compulsory during their sec school. While it is not boot camp, at least they need teamwork, get close to nature, and rough it out.
If really want them to serve NS, then let them do nursing. During Pearl Harbor or even the Jap invasion of Singapore, nurses perform gallently, even with bombs dropping around them. The sight they see, blown limbs, bloody head, dying soldiers, won't lose to what guys see in battlefields. -
You served in SPF, so it's a different story. No cheong suahing for you. Catching crooks does not require you to go outfield, does it?Originally posted by huaiwei:I bet you are not a geography student?
Neither do I suppose you understood the concept of "total defence", in particular the aspect of psychological defence. If anything, you display the very mindset the psychological aspect of national defence will be trying to correct. Perhaps it dosent work for you, but there is nothing to say it dosent work for others.
I completed my NS a few years ago, and no, I dont think I want to consider going through it again. Like most of my peers, I was looking forward to ORD as well. That said, you dont find me going round saying NS was a complete waste of time in every sense of the word. And for that matter, please do note that not everyone who declares SAF as a waste of time is neccesarily saying it based on the same factors. Some, like yourself, thinks defending a small country like Singapore is physically impossible. Others may think its a waste of time because of manpower and training issues.
You feel Singaporeans will go into a panicky frenzy when an arty shell explodes here. Well...that shell isnt going to come without any warning, so do you think Singapores will need that long to freak out? Instead, I am much more worried about the effects of an unexpected terrorist attack.
I am quite amused when you question the operational readiness of our reservists. I do wonder if you are one yourself, because if so, your impression does happen to be a tiny minority. Unfortunately, people seem to be consumed by talks of the inefficienty of our NSF guys, and presume the NSmen are in a worse state of affairs. Well...quite the opposite actually.
Finally, you make plenty of assumptions on expected social responses to a military attack. But until a war actually breaks out, I must point out its almost impossible to make such predictions. As some have pointed out, in times of war when retreat is not an option, and the realisation that the protection of loved ones, and all we hold dear rests solely on us and no one else starts to sink in, who knows how many will throw up their hands in despair, and who will be galvanised to take up arms and fight to the last?
Sometimes, the choice isnt even given to you.
Whatever the case, I dont expect you to suddenly change your stance overnight. I would just hope that you would spend a little time reflecting on what you presume as the definitive thruth, and considering adopting a more eclectic viewpoint before settling back to whatever position you happen to be comfortable in. -
This is an extract from LKY's memoir. Juz to remind us why we need to have NS in the 1st place.
While things have improved, we all know too well that any nations will use their armed forces to back them in their sovereignty dispute. Besides, we still have terrorists threats to counter against.
Building an army from scratch
WHEN Parliament was due to open in December 1965, four months after our separation from Malaysia, Brigadier Syed Mohamed Syed Ahmad Alsagoff, who was in charge of a Malaysian brigade stationed in Singapore, called on me and insisted that his motorcycle outriders escort me to Parliament. Alsagoff was a stout, heavy-built Arab Muslim with a moustache, a Singaporean by birth who had joined the Malayan Armed Forces.
To my amazement he acted as if he was the commander-in-chief of the army in Singapore, ready at any time to take over control of the island. At that time, the First and Second Singapore Infantry Regiments (1 and 2 SIR) of about 1,000 men each were under Malaysian command. The Malaysian government had placed 700 Malaysians in 1 and 2 SIR, and posted out 300 Singaporean soldiers to various Malaysian units.
I weighed up the situation and concluded that the Tunku wanted to remind us and the foreign diplomats who would be present, that Malaysia was still in charge in Singapore.
If I told him off for his presumptuousness, Alsagoff would report this back to his superiors in Kuala Lumpur and they would take other steps to show me who wielded real power in Singapore. I decided it was best to acquiesce.
So, for the ceremonial opening of the first Parliament of the Republic of Singapore, Malaysian army outriders "escorted" me from my office in City Hall to Parliament House.
Shortly after separation, at the request of the Malaysian government, we had sent the 2nd battalion SIR to Sabah for Confrontation duties. We wanted to demonstrate our good faith and solidarity with Malaysia even though a formal defence treaty had not been concluded. This left their barracks, Camp Temasek, vacant. We then agreed to a Malaysian proposal that one Malaysian regiment be sent down to Camp Temasek. The 2nd battalion SIR was due to return from its duties in Borneo in February 1966, and arrangements were made at staff level for the Malaysian regiment to withdraw.
The Malaysian Defence Minister requested that instead of reoccupying Camp Temasek, one Singapore battalion should be sent to the Malayan mainland to enable the Malaysian regiment to remain where it was.
Keng Swee did not agree. We wanted both our own battalions in Singapore.
We believed the Malaysians had changed their minds because they wanted to keep one battalion of Malaysian forces in Singapore to control us.
The Malaysians refused to move out, so the SIR advance party had to live under canvas at Farrer Park. Keng Swee saw me urgently to warn that if our troops were under canvas for too long, with poor facilities for their mess and toilets, there was the risk of a riot or a mutiny. He compared himself to a British general in charge of troops the majority of whom were Italians.
The Malaysians could take advantage of this and, through Brigadier Alsagoff, mount a coup. He advised me to move from my home in Oxley Road into the Istana Villa in the Istana domain and to post Gurkha police guards around just in case.
For the next few weeks, my family and I stayed there with a company of Gurkhas on standby. Shortly afterwards, the British vacated a camp called Khatib in the north of Singapore, near Sembawang. We offered it to the Malaysians and they agreed in mid-March 1966 to move out of our camp to Khatib, where they remained for 18 months before withdrawing of their own accord in November 1967.
Their unreasonableness only made us more determined to build up the Singapore Armed Forces (SAF) so that they could not intimidate us in this way. It stiffened our resolve and made us dig our heels in.
Keng Swee, ever the intrepid fighter, had written in his paper to Defco (Defence Council):
"It is foolish to allow ourselves to be hypnotised by the disparity in the population ratios between Singapore and her neighbours. What counts is the fighting strength of the armed forces, not the size of populations. After five years of conscription, we can field an army of 150,000 by mobilising those on the reserve service. By using older persons and women for non-combatant duties, we should eventually be able to field an army with a combat strength of 250,000 consisting of men between the ages of 18 and 35. The war-making potential of a small, vigorous, well-educated and highly motivated population should never be underestimated."
This was an ambitious plan based on the Israeli practice of mobilising the maximum number possible in the shortest time possible. We thought it important for people in and outside Singapore to know that despite our small population, we could mobilise a large fighting force at short notice. Ours was no easy task. We had to reorientate people's minds to accept the need for a people's army and overcome their traditional dislike for soldiering.
Every Chinese parent knew the saying hao han bu dang bing, hao tie bu da ding (a good lad does not become a soldier, good steel does not become nails). We set up national cadet corps and national police cadet corps in all secondary schools so that parents would identify the army and police with their sons and daughters.
We wanted the people to regard our soldiers as their protectors - a reversal from the days when army and police uniforms aroused fear and resentment as symbols of colonial coercion. People must admire military valour.
As Keng Swee said in sorrow: "The Spartan approach to life does not come about naturally in a community that lives by buying and selling."
I had to get people to change their attitudes. We also had to improve the physical condition of our young by getting them to participate in sports and physical activity of all kinds, and to develop a taste for adventure and strenuous, thrilling activities that were not without danger to themselves.
Persuasion alone was not enough. We needed institutions, well-organised, well-staffed and well-directed, to follow up the exhortations and stirring speeches. The prime responsibility was that of the Ministry of Education.
Only if we changed people's thinking and attitudes could we raise a large citizen army like Switzerland's or Israel's. We gave ourselves a decade to accomplish this. -
It all boils down to the the way the world is, our society.. the Gen Y generation? Maybe we are too lazy to get out of our comfort zone (I admit I'm one..)..
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cant understand or appr NS?
of coz lah they never been thru wat ....
some things can be told , some things must be experienced.
Good or Bad this is our country , our army, we are here to defend or deter or attack, its our duty, our obligation ...
just my 3 cents