Illegal Orders
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A thought....
Let's say if a superior gives you an illegal order, are you legally obligated to follow it?
Let's give an example.... a commander blocks a medic from evacuating heat injury casualties, thinking that they are chao keng cases. If memory serves, TSR states that ALL heat injury cases are to be evacuated (confirmation, anyone?).
Since the order would then be technically illegal, is the medic obligated to follow it?
And if the commander were to charge the medic if he were to disobey that order... would the charge hold? -
If the medic feels that the casualty should be evacuated, and the commander threatens to charge, the commander is at fault. The medic is doing his duty, as per TSR.
The medic can refer to the Senior medic/ Medical officer on site, and let the superior decide. In my experience, no medic has been punished for making errors on the side of safety. in a worse case scenerio,he'd at most get a coupla extras from the senior medic/MO -
a life is at stake... and there are signs to indicate heat exhaustion which medics are trained to detect and confirm.
if in doubt, play safe first... -
make firm decision base on your judgement, do what u think is right. afterall u are professionally trained. in this case, what if the soldiers are really suffering from heat injury? can the commander simply block u from evacuating them just because he thinks they are chao kenging? lives are at sake here.
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On your example provided, it would be wiser for the commander to let the medic carryout the evacuation first. If the soldier later diagnose to has malingering intent,Originally posted by fudgester:A thought....
Let's say if a superior gives you an illegal order, are you legally obligated to follow it?
Let's give an example.... a commander blocks a medic from evacuating heat injury casualties, thinking that they are chao keng cases. If memory serves, TSR states that ALL heat injury cases are to be evacuated (confirmation, anyone?).
Since the order would then be technically illegal, is the medic obligated to follow it?
And if the commander were to charge the medic if he were to disobey that order... would the charge hold?
.
And to answer your question, it be good if a soldier can tell the difference between illegal order and actual order. In general, a soldier should not follow an order that is illegal in nature blindly but do note that in actual operation, certain orders are only made known to a few as it may has an adverse effect on the overall operation strategies and battle outcome. Hence, without a doubt, they are to be adhere to.
In short,
Illegal - Against all moral law and humantarians act etc.
Legal - Means legal but not necessary for one to know. -
the definition is a lot more blurry than that ....
for example:
you're on a patrol/harbouring deep behind enemy lines, preparing for some strike against important target, that could perhaps means the difference between victory and defeat for Singapore .. e.g. maybe an airbase strike, or taking out a rocket launching site .... some of their own soldiers on patrol stumbled onto you .... they swiftly put their hands up and surrendered ..... so what do you do now ?
1: kill them, as your critical mission cannot be compromised, but what about the Geneva convention, what about morality, your humanity ?
2: take them POW, but this is impossible, as my commander put it when he posed this question, You are deep behind enemy lines, can't exactly indent 1 x 5 tonner or chopper to take them back right ?
The mission cannot fail, and the enemy must never catch wind of what you're preparing to do. What now ? .... what would you do ? ...
to complicate things further .... what if it was some village kids out picking fruits, instead of enemy soldiers on patrol ? .....
have fun chewing on this. -
well if the mission is that important, i guess you got no choice but to kill the people. no one would know anyway. the only thing you'd have to contend with is your conscience.Originally posted by Fatum:the definition is a lot more blurry than that ....
for example:
you're on a patrol/harbouring deep behind enemy lines, preparing for some strike against important target, that could perhaps means the difference between victory and defeat for Singapore .. e.g. maybe an airbase strike, or taking out a rocket launching site .... some of their own soldiers on patrol stumbled onto you .... they swiftly put their hands up and surrendered ..... so what do you do now ?
1: kill them, as your critical mission cannot be compromised, but what about the Geneva convention, what about morality, your humanity ?
2: take them POW, but this is impossible, as my commander put it when he posed this question, You are deep behind enemy lines, can't exactly indent 1 x 5 tonner or chopper to take them back right ?
The mission cannot fail, and the enemy must never catch wind of what you're preparing to do. What now ? .... what would you do ? ...
to complicate things further .... what if it was some village kids out picking fruits, instead of enemy soldiers on patrol ? .....
have fun chewing on this. -
There must be some other way to secure the enemy soldiers without compromising the mission as well as the Geneva convention... like tying them up onto the tree, come on be creative.Originally posted by Fatum:the definition is a lot more blurry than that ....
for example:
you're on a patrol/harbouring deep behind enemy lines, preparing for some strike against important target, that could perhaps means the difference between victory and defeat for Singapore .. e.g. maybe an airbase strike, or taking out a rocket launching site .... some of their own soldiers on patrol stumbled onto you .... they swiftly put their hands up and surrendered ..... so what do you do now ?
1: kill them, as your critical mission cannot be compromised, but what about the Geneva convention, what about morality, your humanity ?
2: take them POW, but this is impossible, as my commander put it when he posed this question, You are deep behind enemy lines, can't exactly indent 1 x 5 tonner or chopper to take them back right ?
The mission cannot fail, and the enemy must never catch wind of what you're preparing to do. What now ? .... what would you do ? ...
to complicate things further .... what if it was some village kids out picking fruits, instead of enemy soldiers on patrol ? .....
have fun chewing on this. -
a friend of mine in a certain infantry unit was given this order.
"go pick up those weapons from base using your own vehicle."
he returned without the weapons because the base personnel wouldn't let him have the weapons without any escort or with a civilian vehicle. he was charged by his S4 for disobeying orders and give 14 something. i forgot what. -
Are you personally on the ground to witness what actually happened? If not, treat it as a fictional story.
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If I'm not wrong, in the IDF, soldiers are allowed to disobey orders which they know to be illegal. This fact was highlighted after some helicopter gunship pilots were court-martialed after refusing to shoot on targets in the West Bank.
Their defence was that the order that was given to them to shoot was illegal. I'm not sure what the verdict was.... does anyone remember this case?
Is there any protection for our soldiers who do actually disobey illegal orders?
It's easy to say that ethics should prevail over orders, but if the threat of 'charge' is floating above the soldier's head if he doesn't carry it out, then it's not exactly the easiest decision to make. -
wasn't that far back, probably less than 2 months. just check with any personnel in 6d.
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In my Base, we have previously dealt with those units who try and play punk with the GOM.We as techs will refer such units to our Workshop ICs who will get on the line to the unit responsible and ensure that rules are followed.Originally posted by nismoS132:a friend of mine in a certain infantry unit was given this order.
"go pick up those weapons from base using your own vehicle."
he returned without the weapons because the base personnel wouldn't let him have the weapons without any escort or with a civilian vehicle. he was charged by his S4 for disobeying orders and give 14 something. i forgot what.
The S4 who charged this guy that disobeyed an illegal order that contravenes GOM is a stupid fool who knows nothing about his jobscope or his place in the organisation.IMHO, he has insulted the Singapura on his rank tab and the rank itself. -
Without revealing too much (I really hope you guys understand... I don't want to get into trouble even though I ORD-ed last year), I was the medic in the first story.
Suffice to say that I judged the casualties to be not too serious to require immediate evac, and would have evacuated them if any one of them got just slightly worse. Happily, they all quickly got better, and no illegal orders had to be disobeyed.
I still feel sucky over the whole thing, though. -
One of the dilemmas in any military organisation...Originally posted by fudgester:Without revealing too much (I really hope you guys understand... I don't want to get into trouble even though I ORD-ed last year), I was the medic in the first story.
Suffice to say that I judged the casualties to be not too serious to require immediate evac, and would have evacuated them if any one of them got just slightly worse. Happily, they all quickly got better, and no illegal orders had to be disobeyed.
I still feel sucky over the whole thing, though.
(PS.Saw you in the Central Library dude..
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Nowadays all kia see one...
Little bit little bit go report sick....
No one will stop them one la.. -
Yeah..... sad but true.Originally posted by LazerLordz:One of the dilemmas in any military organisation...
(PS.Saw you in the Central Library dude.. )
(P.S. *ducks for cover from Lazerlordz*......
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Nowadays everyone scared sh** that another soldier will die on their watch.
Everyone is asked if they are feeling ok about 3 or 4 times at each training session.
Heck, they even asked if we were ok during a live firing session, we were all under a training shed, and it was cloudy day!
Maybe can report sick because too many mosquito bites!
Altho these days with the dengue, you might get away with it too!
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If you had decided to evacuate against the orders of your CO, your MO would defend you all the way. A CPT will stand up against a MAJ in medical issues...although I am not sure about the LTA MOs though...they might feel they are far outranked.Originally posted by fudgester:Without revealing too much (I really hope you guys understand... I don't want to get into trouble even though I ORD-ed last year), I was the medic in the first story.
Suffice to say that I judged the casualties to be not too serious to require immediate evac, and would have evacuated them if any one of them got just slightly worse. Happily, they all quickly got better, and no illegal orders had to be disobeyed.
I still feel sucky over the whole thing, though. -
are there LTA MOs ? .... i thought all medical officers are Captains straight ? ....Originally posted by oxford mushroom:If you had decided to evacuate against the orders of your CO, your MO would defend you all the way. A CPT will stand up against a MAJ in medical issues...although I am not sure about the LTA MOs though...they might feel they are far outranked.
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you've not been to 41sar.Originally posted by oxford mushroom:If you had decided to evacuate against the orders of your CO, your MO would defend you all the way. -
Politics playing hell with the professionalism needed in a combat battalion.Originally posted by nismoS132:you've not been to 41sar.
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My MO is a nice guy, but with all due respect to him, I won't exactly count on what you said to happen.Originally posted by oxford mushroom:If you had decided to evacuate against the orders of your CO, your MO would defend you all the way. A CPT will stand up against a MAJ in medical issues...although I am not sure about the LTA MOs though...they might feel they are far outranked.
Anyway, that was all in the past, and I'm just glad that everyone got out of it in one piece. I just hope that such a thing won't ever happen again... not to me, not to those casualties, or to anyone else for that matter. The enemy is out there, not our soldiers. -
If the order is not right, illegal, u can disobey the orders bona fide.
When facing court martial simply state the reason why u disobeyed the order and u shud be alright. Important thing is, u must have a good reason to do it. If he prevents casualty evacuation, and u have to the ability to override to save a life, then do it. No rank is worth a person's life. -
Got. LTA MOs are Pes C one, if I am not wrong.Originally posted by Fatum:are there LTA MOs ? .... i thought all medical officers are Captains straight ? ....