SAF needs to adapt new unarmed combat techniques!
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dude...there are many law enforcement units all over the world that utilises aikido as their main martial arts...so whats these stuff abt not proven?Originally posted by lwflee:Aikido... no aikido... in that i agree with you. Have the people who are recc aikido actually practising aikido themselves? Or is it just something they 'heard'.
Aikido has no place in the military because:
1) It's principles haven't really been proven. Where Aikido have been practiced by a public services group, it is usually that of the 'harder' variety, and that means it is very close to Jap Jiu Jitsu. So why not just go for JJJ?
2) Even if it is conceded that its principles really do work, it will take a very very long time for anyone to be proficient at the art. This is admitted by Morihei Ueshiba himself.
And aikido as with any other martial arts requires lifelong learning for you to be really proficient in it anyway.... -
How has it been proven? I know the techniques can work, but i am not a fan of the way they train. Correct me if i am wrong (and you know that i have had only very very limited experience in Aikido because i told you before), but isn't it true that, at least fior the first year of trg, the majority of Aikido trg takes the form of:Originally posted by CenturionMBT:dude...there are many law enforcement units all over the world that utilises aikido as their main martial arts...so whats these stuff abt not proven?
And aikido as with any other martial arts requires lifelong learning for you to be really proficient in it anyway....
1. Hold my wrist.
2. Stay there.
3. I Execute the move.
or
1. Over head chop
2. Step in. Step out. Imagine that you are trying to follow the force of the chop, and use it to execute your arm lock.
Up till now, *free* sparring is still, afaik, seen as being radical in aikido. Further, most of the techniques found in aikido can also be found in other arts. Imo, the Aikido is unique not because of its techniques, but because of its philosophy. Morihei Ueshiba was probably a superb fighter, but that says more about his physical prowess and training than about Aikido as a martial art. After all, he was trained in such arts as Jiu Jitsu, before he created Aikido. Personally, i think Aikido is a reflection of O Sensei's idealised version of the way the world should be, and is therefore more a philosophy of life than an out and out martial art.
I suspect Aikido's attraction for Law enforcement units lies in the wide array of wrist and arm locks available in aikido. This fits the misson profile of cops; ie trying to use non-lethal force to subdue rowdy offenders. Yes, i know that a "lock" can quite easily be turned into a "break". However, if you want to break an arm, for eg, there are better ways to do it than trying to do it from an arm lock position. Eg. The Arm bar is designed to break limbs and does it very effectively as you are using you whole body against the elbow. It would, however, not be very effective as a method of restraint.
I also think that another of aikido's attraction lies in its "peaceful" image. In today's PC climate this is clearly a big consideration for police forces; no one wants to risk being branded as an oppresive para-military arm of the government. I do not know of many military units using aikido.
I also dun agree with what you are implying in the last sentence. Imo, A Judo/Jiujitsu ka/ wrestler will probably take less time to be of help in a fighting situation, than an aikido ka.
Sorry for the post being long, and being a little out of point. -
why not get m4s and blast it in the opponent's face ?
CQB effective . -
Originally posted by lwflee:
u are right abt how Aikido artist train...u seem to know alot..
[b]
How has it been proven? I know the techniques can work, but i am not a fan of the way they train. Correct me if i am wrong (and you know that i have had only very very limited experience in Aikido because i told you before), but isn't it true that, at least fior the first year of trg, the majority of Aikido trg takes the form of:
1. Hold my wrist.
2. Stay there.
3. I Execute the move.
or
1. Over head chop
2. Step in. Step out. Imagine that you are trying to follow the force of the chop, and use it to execute your arm lock.
Up till now, *free* sparring is still, afaik, seen as being radical in aikido. Further, most of the techniques found in aikido can also be found in other arts. Imo, the Aikido is unique not because of its techniques, but because of its philosophy. Morihei Ueshiba was probably a superb fighter, but that says more about his physical prowess and training than about Aikido as a martial art. After all, he was trained in such arts as Jiu Jitsu, before he created Aikido. Personally, i think Aikido is a reflection of O Sensei's idealised version of the way the world should be, and is therefore more a philosophy of life than an out and out martial art.
I suspect Aikido's attraction for Law enforcement units lies in the wide array of wrist and arm locks available in aikido. This fits the misson profile of cops; ie trying to use non-lethal force to subdue rowdy offenders. Yes, i know that a "lock" can quite easily be turned into a "break". However, if you want to break an arm, for eg, there are better ways to do it than trying to do it from an arm lock position. Eg. The Arm bar is designed to break limbs and does it very effectively as you are using you whole body against the elbow. It would, however, not be very effective as a method of restraint. b]
but it seem that u forget that Aikido its a passive art..how does free sparring be integrated into it? in my 1st stage of training..i felt dumb learning the Aikido technique..think its useless(as u have said..u hold my hand i lock u)
but the Sensei is able to integrate punch..so the locks can be executed smoothly...
isnt ICCT all abt u hold i hold u..rite? aint the same...
there are locks which are more effective than arm bar...in fact there are locks which u dun even need your body weight or much strength to break that person arms..
true Aikido is not a perfect art..but isnt it better that your locks can turn from submission to breaking of one arms? rather then u go all out breaking someone arms all the way..
it seem that u answer your own question..n dun even realize it..
but still some of your point are valid...
maybe SAF shld also add in MMA for us to train in.. -
ok...just to clear up your impression a little.Originally posted by lwflee:How has it been proven? I know the techniques can work, but i am not a fan of the way they train. Correct me if i am wrong (and you know that i have had only very very limited experience in Aikido because i told you before), but isn't it true that, at least fior the first year of trg, the majority of Aikido trg takes the form of:
1. Hold my wrist.
2. Stay there.
3. I Execute the move.
or
1. Over head chop
2. Step in. Step out. Imagine that you are trying to follow the force of the chop, and use it to execute your arm lock.
Up till now, *free* sparring is still, afaik, seen as being radical in aikido. Further, most of the techniques found in aikido can also be found in other arts. Imo, the Aikido is unique not because of its techniques, but because of its philosophy. Morihei Ueshiba was probably a superb fighter, but that says more about his physical prowess and training than about Aikido as a martial art. After all, he was trained in such arts as Jiu Jitsu, before he created Aikido. Personally, i think Aikido is a reflection of O Sensei's idealised version of the way the world should be, and is therefore more a philosophy of life than an out and out martial art.
I suspect Aikido's attraction for Law enforcement units lies in the wide array of wrist and arm locks available in aikido. This fits the misson profile of cops; ie trying to use non-lethal force to subdue rowdy offenders. Yes, i know that a "lock" can quite easily be turned into a "break". However, if you want to break an arm, for eg, there are better ways to do it than trying to do it from an arm lock position. Eg. The Arm bar is designed to break limbs and does it very effectively as you are using you whole body against the elbow. It would, however, not be very effective as a method of restraint.
I also think that another of aikido's attraction lies in its "peaceful" image. In today's PC climate this is clearly a big consideration for police forces; no one wants to risk being branded as an oppresive para-military arm of the government. I do not know of many military units using aikido.
I also dun agree with what you are implying in the last sentence. Imo, A Judo/Jiujitsu ka/ wrestler will probably take less time to be of help in a fighting situation, than an aikido ka.
Sorry for the post being long, and being a little out of point.
The thing about hold hands and stay stay still and let the other fella perform the lock on you...true...i kena that all the while when i was a junior belt. Found it damn dumb and i asked the instructor why. He told me that is supposed to allow the student to learn more about the lock, rather than defending himself.
As i progressed furthur, it started to get more dynamic. They emphasise alot on blending into the attack. Meaning standing there to catch the fellas wrist would basicly get you killed. You have to start moving to into the person's attack and subdue him without any contact from the opponent.
In many of the cases you will have to utilise the opponent's momentum when he attacks to subdue him and thats the point of time where aikido gets very useful.
Ok...i can't really describe all those techniques in words but it is really not as static as you think it is.
Now you were comparing other martial arts with aikido....which imo, is not exactly fair. Every martial arts have their strength and weakness. For example, judo and jujitsu, they are better developed in ground grappling as compared to aikido in fact...the moment the aikidoka is on the ground, most of the locks wun work anyway.
But on the otherhand, aikido is very good when it comes to conservation of strength. You perform maximum damage with minimum effort.
So basicly with different martial arts, there comes different SOPs. It depends on how well you want to take them.
Now i dun really agree with your last sentence though, i believe that depending on the training and circumstances, any one with a good martial arts background would be able to access and get themselves in a more favourable situation during a combat situation.It is just a matter on how skilled you are. There is no such thing as who does it better. There is only such thing as whether you get yourself alive that matters.
But as far as i am concerned in this topic, aikido, judo and jujitsu really itsn't the best martial art for a conscript army. All of them take too long to master.
I am not sure about krav magar *spelling* but if it really works for the israeli army, then i guess it should work for our's too. -
Dude, my point was that we need a mixture of all the techniques that would actually work best in the situation we are in. I didn't say that TKD is totally worthless as a martial art. Otherwise I wouldn't have taken it.Originally posted by Tango12:Who sae u muz use side kick.TKD is not abt kicking also.U can use punching also wat. Black belt so?Black belt is only the starting of TKD.To b a master of tkd, you need to be at least 5 dan and above.Somemore, it is battle proven by the koreans during the both korea and vietnam wars.Go read this forum http://www.sgforums.com/?action=thread_display&thread_id=157576
However, when SAF teaches TKD, they DO teach sidekick and back thrust along with an assortment of other TKD techniques, and only in clean fatigues and no boots on. Totally different when trying to do it with SBO, forget FBO. Lets face it, how many of us serving 2 and a half, or in today's case, 2 years, have sufficient time to learn how to make it very effective.
I didn't claim to be a master either. But then are you? But at least being trained in it to a decent level gives me a decent right to say how it would apply to us.
Martial arts has its place in the military. The thing is in this thread is about how many ordinary soldiers will ever have the amount of time to master all the techniques of a martial art. Wouldn't it be better learning something of a amalgamation of techniques from the different skills that would be both easy to learn and effective to apply in a war situation with helmet, fully loaded SBO, rifle and boots on. -
Well, sad to sae that TKD is already being withdrawn from SAF quite long ago. Soldiers now also dun learn unarmed combat which was v based on tkd last time.Now, they learn close combat.It is a mixture of many martial arts and has been modified to simple techniques to cater the needs of SAF.Many sae that its v 'wayang'. However, some of its techniques are actually quite useful. Like two hand choke, i saw it is almost the same found in other martial arts too. At least, u got learn something is better than none.If the real danger happens to you and without any training, i doubt anyone knoes wat to do. They always sae the most simple technique is the most effective.Originally posted by insouciant:Dude, my point was that we need a mixture of all the techniques that would actually work best in the situation we are in. I didn't say that TKD is totally worthless as a martial art. Otherwise I wouldn't have taken it.
However, when SAF teaches TKD, they DO teach sidekick and back thrust along with an assortment of other TKD techniques, and only in clean fatigues and no boots on. Totally different when trying to do it with SBO, forget FBO. Lets face it, how many of us serving 2 and a half, or in today's case, 2 years, have sufficient time to learn how to make it very effective.
I didn't claim to be a master either. But then are you? But at least being trained in it to a decent level gives me a decent right to say how it would apply to us.
Martial arts has its place in the military. The thing is in this thread is about how many ordinary soldiers will ever have the amount of time to master all the techniques of a martial art. Wouldn't it be better learning something of a amalgamation of techniques from the different skills that would be both easy to learn and effective to apply in a war situation with helmet, fully loaded SBO, rifle and boots on.
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I still think aikido is more suitable for the law enforcement units than military. Mainly, the police need the 'Control & Restraint' to arrest the criminals. However, the military need more aggressive martial arts to kill not arrest. Also, in the battlefield, it is very rare cases for u to abandon yr rifle. U would rather use yr rifle to whack the enemy rather than go n lock him rite. In SAF, they included the locks in CCT due to the need to perform duties at airport n etc..Not due to combat needs. One more impt thing, even we teach the soldiers Krav maga also no use.They may have the reaction or speed.But they wont have the power or impact to take the opponent down.Why!!!Cos due to SAF TSR and safety. To toughen up your punches, u need to train up yr wrist and knuckles. If u dont and have a weak wrist, most likely u will get injured and sprained yr wrist. Best way to condition it is to do knuckle pushups and more.. which many are not allowed in SAF. In SAf, many things muz follow the book and follow lesson plans.How to train like that?
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I'm also trained in martial Arts.Originally posted by Tango12:I still think aikido is more suitable for the law enforcement units than military. Mainly, the police need the 'Control & Restraint' to arrest the criminals. However, the military need more aggressive martial arts to kill not arrest. Also, in the battlefield, it is very rare cases for u to abandon yr rifle. U would rather use yr rifle to whack the enemy rather than go n lock him rite. In SAF, they included the locks in CCT due to the need to perform duties at airport n etc..Not due to combat needs. One more impt thing, even we teach the soldiers Krav maga also no use.They may have the reaction or speed.But they wont have the power or impact to take the opponent down.Why!!!Cos due to SAF TSR and safety. To toughen up your punches, u need to train up yr wrist and knuckles. If u dont and have a weak wrist, most likely u will get injured and sprained yr wrist. Best way to condition it is to do knuckle pushups and more.. which many are not allowed in SAF. In SAf, many things muz follow the book and follow lesson plans.How to train like that?
My best skills in this area is to Poke the Eyes and kick the Balls . Of coz you have to be very accurate to do so . And if done correctly with the best speed, you can bring down any Opponent.
Who want to learn ? Can get the Dummy from Seng Arms and I charge you monthly fees to teach you the Non-injury way of doing that. -
Anyone read the New paper on last wed?Its about one black belt whacked off 3 robbers at Seng Kang Carpark.Well, that guy is a tkd black belt even though the papers never write wat martial art he learnt.But i know who is he. Well, u can c that TKD is not useless if u learn it properly.Or else how that guy beat off the 3 robbers.