Why did SAF switch from SAR21 from M16
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I think if we were to follow the Brits by using an "up-gunned" assault rifle as a SAW, would be a mistake...30 round mags for a SAW is ridiculous, it zaps all those rounds out in less then half the time to blink men. Perhaps the M249 or the Israeli Negev should be considered.
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how come SAF uses a smaller calibre machine gun when the GPMG which is used as a platoon asset is made into a crew served weapon? I read somewhere that in the Falklands War the 2 Para battalion uses 2 gimpys in each section and even that they got problem capturing objectives. Is it because we are smaller sized that the Brits?
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I guess SAF assessed its situation and determined that SAW is sufficient.Originally posted by decepticon25:how come SAF uses a smaller calibre machine gun when the GPMG which is used as a platoon asset is made into a crew served weapon? I read somewhere that in the Falklands War the 2 Para battalion uses 2 gimpys in each section and even that they got problem capturing objectives. Is it because we are smaller sized that the Brits?
AFAIK the SAW in the Nato world is 5.56 like most LMG.
using GPMG in a section sounds more like Commandos to me.
When i was aboard a US Navy Aircraft carrier their guards do their prowling with GPMG!!!
It was a funny sight when he was standing next to our RP. One big sized beefy black guy with a GPMG next to an skinny wear spectacle disgruntled RP with M16. haha -
Have you ever tried charging a hill with a GPMG? Maybe alright for the 90kg ang moh, but for the average sized 60 - 70kg Singaporean, it can be quite a challenge to say the least. And let's face it with the GPMG being belt fed, no way we can hold the GPMG with one hand and fire accurately running up a hill, whilst using the other hand to keep the belt from tangling up. That's only from those silly Rambo movies. Even then he was using a Stoner M63, not the GPMG.Originally posted by decepticon25:how come SAF uses a smaller calibre machine gun when the GPMG which is used as a platoon asset is made into a crew served weapon? I read somewhere that in the Falklands War the 2 Para battalion uses 2 gimpys in each section and even that they got problem capturing objectives. Is it because we are smaller sized that the Brits?
For the way we deploy for war, I think the current saw capabilities is ok, except for the fact of the 30 round mag. Like already mentioned, 30 rounds go in a burp! But they should look at using better materials and stronger "joints" to make it more hardy.
However since I mentioned, the Stoner M63 or some modern day version might be nice.
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talking about belt fed maching guns..
does anybody know what Japan used as their GPMG during WW2?
they are not belt felt but rather they feed this long hard strip that holds the bullets.
whenever they fire the strip will just come out like typewriter. then the assistant will just feed another strip. -
i dont think in war we would charge up a hill. Most likely we would crawl up from the point of breaching or contact with the enemy. but yes i carried a GPMG during a course once as a gunner. but if you consider its fire rate i think its worth the sweat because the enemy wont even dare to stand in a trench.
i ve seen skinnier men carried the gimpy without a hitch of course they would bitch but if they are conditioned i think is okay -
sar21 look like toy gun, m1 more imtimidating
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the SAW is still the only widely combat tested weapon in STK's small arms lineup.They lost the USMC tender in 1986 to the M249 Minimi due to the fact that it was magazine fed.Originally posted by ToffeeClub1929:SAF should also replace the SAW....
so long, magazine always jam, bi-pod always spoil, barrel easily rusty, butt loose
American SAW tactics are more geared to shooting while stationary,whereas our SAW usage is more of small area suppression and on the move. -
I think that was just bad intelligence on STK part. THey never find out what the customer really really required, what their doctrines were.
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1986- USMC SAW tender 2nd.Originally posted by Shotgun:I think that was just bad intelligence on STK part. THey never find out what the customer really really required, what their doctrines were.
2001- US Medium Interim Armoured Vehicle 2nd
2006- Lost to the Piranha in the Bulgarian tender?(can anyone confirm) -
are u sure it's rp?Originally posted by Ponders:I guess SAF assessed its situation and determined that SAW is sufficient.
AFAIK the SAW in the Nato world is 5.56 like most LMG.
using GPMG in a section sounds more like Commandos to me.
When i was aboard a US Navy Aircraft carrier their guards do their prowling with GPMG!!!
It was a funny sight when he was standing next to our RP. One big sized beefy black guy with a GPMG next to an skinny wear spectacle disgruntled RP with M16. haha
should be sea soldier right... haha. anw. i saw tt too... :X[/b][/i] -
2001- US Medium Interim Armoured Vehicle 2nd - - STK trying to sell the BX?Originally posted by LazerLordz:1986- USMC SAW tender 2nd.
2001- US Medium Interim Armoured Vehicle 2nd
2006- Lost to the Piranha in the Bulgarian tender?(can anyone confirm)
2006- Lost to the Piranha in the Bulgarian tender?(can anyone --- Selling wad? Terrex? -
BX lost to the Stryker.Originally posted by Shotgun:2001- US Medium Interim Armoured Vehicle 2nd - - STK trying to sell the BX?
2006- Lost to the Piranha in the Bulgarian tender?(can anyone --- Selling wad? Terrex?
Oh yea, you triggered my memory.The Terrex lost to the Piranha. -
What unit are you? We charge hills all the time. In war, defensive positions are often around hills, maybe not right at the top, but usually not right at the bottom either. So if you are not charging up the hill to take the enemy position, it's fire and movement. Don't think it's possible to fire the GPMG on the move accurately, an if it's not accurate, does it really matter how good the firepower is?Originally posted by decepticon25:i dont think in war we would charge up a hill. Most likely we would crawl up from the point of breaching or contact with the enemy. but yes i carried a GPMG during a course once as a gunner. but if you consider its fire rate i think its worth the sweat because the enemy wont even dare to stand in a trench.
i ve seen skinnier men carried the gimpy without a hitch of course they would bitch but if they are conditioned i think is okay
Sure, a skinny guy can carry the GPMG, but to charge and fire or do fire and movement, let's face it, not very practical. Again one hand on grip pulling trigger and the other holding the belt to make sure it doesn't get tangled? all the while running, taking cover, rolling, proning, getting up, etc... No fishing way. -
I think u have forgoten the SAR-80 and SAR-88.
Heard they are used by the Bosnians. -
Originally posted by o-lua:
Sea Soldier... RP... all look the same to me. haha.
are u sure it's rp?
should be sea soldier right... haha. anw. i saw tt too... :X[/i][/b] -
yeah.. officially decommissioned in SAF as of 2005 i think.Originally posted by equlus84:I think u have forgoten the SAR-80 and SAR-88. Heard they are used by the Bosnians.
non-combat units/personnel are issued those.
yes. STK (or rather Tamasek) have a reputation of selling weaponry to countries where other countries do not want to supply weapons for moral reasons.
I think our SAW, SAR and Mines have been found in hotspots over the other side of the world. -
well bro ... I think an ethical arms dealer is an oxymoron, no ? ...Originally posted by Ponders:yeah.. officially decommissioned in SAF as of 2005 i think.
non-combat units/personnel are issued those.
yes. STK (or rather Tamasek) have a reputation of selling weaponry to countries where other countries do not want to supply weapons for moral reasons.
I think our SAW, SAR and Mines have been found in hotspots over the other side of the world.
I hear from my friends from GSMBs and DSMBs that they use the SAR 80 for their annual range, anyone can confirm that ? ...
as for the SAW, those who thinks the ultimax 100 goes "burps" and empties the whole mag in a blink probably didn't fire one before .... they do go burp, and the mag certainly doesn't last very long, but they don't squirt out as fast as the old M-16S1 ... there's a gas fed selector too, in anycase ...
and the SAW is not intended to be used as a sustained fire weapon anyways, that is reserved for the MGs, for those advocating using a GPMG to go chiong, I think what they say about pain is true then; you never remember it ! ...
if you're an infantry type trooper humping around some hill somewhere, you'd be wishing for the smallest weapon to carry, no ? ... remember how people have to take turns with the MG during roadmarches ? ... weight is important, fatigue is a factor, you don't do your battle calculus by expecting all your men to be Rambos,... there has to be a trade-off between firepower and weight, of course "zuaing" with a SAW is fun, but remember, ammo is something that is heavy, takes up space, has to be carried, may not always be resupplied on time, and is always in short supply, that's why they always tell you to conserve your ammo.
personally, i think our SAW is still a pretty good weapon, if they can update it (a rail perhaps, and maybe a redesign the magazine well, the little piece of rod holding the mag through the two lobangs doesn't inspire much confidence, perhaps why we never see the 100 round mags around at all), it'll still have quite a bit of service life left I think ... -
yes, my friend was issued SAR80 and he is a mechanic. but i think it has since been replaced by M16 since there was a directive last year on withdrawing SAR-8xOriginally posted by Fatum:well bro ... I think an ethical arms dealer is an oxymoron, no ? ...
I hear from my friends from GSMBs and DSMBs that they use the SAR 80 for their annual range, anyone can confirm that ? ... -
I agree that our philosophy and strategy in using the SAW is more of to give a more localized fire-support to the groups of the sction, and not like other armies using it as a purely fire support squad weapons.
But I have some chief complains of the SAW.
1) Too long, not veri gd in FIBUA situation.
2) Weapon have too many over all metal parts, rust easily.
3) Magazine "catch" too loose, mag easily drop off
Overall, if one can ratify these issues, then the Ultimax100 is a pretty versatile weapon. It is light, suitable for Asian armies. I personally fired before the 100 round drum magazine one, it is quite low on recoil, and I don't realli understand why ppls say the 100 mag no gd?
I think ST might want to add plastic parts to protect the metal parts to prevent rusting and to increase the "well" for slotting the magazines.
I have been to philippines forum before and I heard they were discussing the choice of Utlimax or Minimi for their SAW. They said that for every Minimi, 3 Ultimax can be bought , but why ST lost in the bidding. Why? -
Belt vs magazine argument.Originally posted by equlus84:I agree that our philosophy and strategy in using the SAW is more of to give a more localized fire-support to the groups of the sction, and not like other armies using it as a purely fire support squad weapons.
But I have some chief complains of the SAW.
1) Too long, not veri gd in FIBUA situation.
2) Weapon have too many over all metal parts, rust easily.
3) Magazine "catch" too loose, mag easily drop off
Overall, if one can ratify these issues, then the Ultimax100 is a pretty versatile weapon. It is light, suitable for Asian armies. I personally fired before the 100 round drum magazine one, it is quite low on recoil, and I don't realli understand why ppls say the 100 mag no gd?
I think ST might want to add plastic parts to protect the metal parts to prevent rusting and to increase the "well" for slotting the magazines.
I have been to philippines forum before and I heard they were discussing the choice of Utlimax or Minimi for their SAW. They said that for every Minimi, 3 Ultimax can be bought , but why ST lost in the bidding. Why?
With a belt feed, the SAW can be used in an emergency to provide accurate covering fire for platoon level. -
My side is rated on the M-16 and AR-15.In fact, more of the AR-15.Originally posted by Ponders:yes, my friend was issued SAR80 and he is a mechanic. but i think it has since been replaced by M16 since there was a directive last year on withdrawing SAR-8x
Highly ironic that we are trained to repair SAR21s but we are not issued them too. -
Good evening guys, just wondering any left hander out there? is SAR21 user friendly for left hander?
tks guys -
[quote]Originally posted by insouciant:
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What unit are you? We charge hills all the time. In war, defensive positions are often around hills, maybe not right at the top, but usually not right at the bottom either. So if you are not charging up the hill to take the enemy position, it's fire and movement. Don't think it's possible to fire the GPMG on the move accurately, an if it's not accurate, does it really matter how good the firepower is?
I am not trying to say in SAF we dont charge hills... i charge like mad doing my time as an infantry sect comdr. My PC always used the GPMG team beside him with the left and right assault even though mys sispec days we dont train like that. his reason was he want superior firepower up front thats why we can run instead of crawling during trench clearing or fire and movement. but the Gimpy never run and fire they just provide support fire to keep the second level of enemy trench from firing back... during PS course we were asked how we clear trenches, those from ADF would always say crawl, and i agree with them -
Originally posted by decepticon25:
Actually having the GPMG next to him (PC) is kinda funny no? (Sorry, not trying to be difficult here) Since PC is in the centre of the platoon, the GPMG would be firing in between two charging sections. So GPMG can't really cover the entire front but only a very narrow front, otherwise he shoots his own soldiers in the back. Thought GPMG normally deployed to the side during assault. Anyone else encounter this?
I am not trying to say in SAF we dont charge hills... i charge like mad doing my time as an infantry sect comdr. My PC always used the GPMG team beside him with the left and right assault even though mys sispec days we dont train like that. his reason was he want superior firepower up front thats why we can run instead of crawling during trench clearing or fire and movement. but the Gimpy never run and fire they just provide support fire to keep the second level of enemy trench from firing back... during PS course we were asked how we clear trenches, those from ADF would always say crawl, and i agree with them[/b]
Ha ha ha... Yeah, I think if given a chance to crawl when clearing trenches, I would too. Who would want to present a target to some guy with his rifle propped up on a sandbag, moving target or otherwise.