Should SAF issue bullet-proof vests?
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Assuming that you ran a football field and the enemy shoot you with every bullets hitting, there would be plenty of holes. God knows if you start the next round and the first shot he shoots will kill you.
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Yes, wearing body armour keeps you from bullets on the body. The best way to keep bullets from the body is actually not to stick your head in a firefight but stick it away.Originally posted by Shotgun:Does not wearing body armor save u from artillery shells? Artillery dpicm rounds will kill exposed infantry regardless of body armor. Covering an area of football field, u think u can run in time with or without body armor?
I don't see the logic in quite a lot of the arguements here. If we are at war, and I have to be in a hostile environment, I'd take every bit of protection I can get to get OUT OF IT ALIVE. I'm not gonna outrun a bullet without body armor. So I'd take body armor and make sure my movements are tactical and economised.
New generations of body armor, bullet proof vests HAVE shown that they are capable of stopping rounds out right. Even if they dont stop rounds outright, anything less than a magnum/AP round is ain't gonna cost much tissue damage. Chances of getting wounded and surviving is at least higher.
The best light weight solution to bullets now, is still non-existent. Ever heard of an inertia dampening field? Its still theoretical, but its gonna be as light as the unit can get.
If you're making a run, a long distance run, after you had been recalled to war when you're working ten to twelve years in office work. I wonder if you can run faster with body armour or without.
And if you've read about warfare. Most died from injuries, than being shot to death immediately. That's true. Body Armour keeps you alive, yes, more unlikely to get killed but it doesn't help if your constitution is expected to be horrible after so many years had passed.
I wondered if you realised more than half our army are out working. It's easy to say wear the armour and run but it's really hard since our constitution was never the same as we were back during ns. -
And if you were to ask me, I would say to hell with BA since you will be tired before even engaging the enemies.
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Investment in BA would mean bigger investments in better bullets, and then even bigger inventments in BA again, and the cycle would go on and on.
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That would mean.....Originally posted by ditzy:Investment in BA would mean bigger investments in better bullets, and then even bigger inventments in BA again, and the cycle would go on and on.
AFEFERGRE-21542365 Rifle, weighs 47kg
BTRY$%Y=3535 bodyarmour, weighs 72kg.
might as well give every person an army tank. -
Better to go back to sticks and stones then
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Anyway, we're doing what we do best.Originally posted by zoik:Better to go back to sticks and stones then
All talk no walk. I believe there are enough military brains in SAF to determine what we use or will be using.
What we say here, is for discussion sake. -
Nelstar talks as if he is Rambo and impervious to bullets, or maybe he thinks he is in the matrix and can dodge bullets. Let him go to the battlefield with his black robe and spectacles instead of helmets and body armour then.
I will go for body armour, especially when even US soldiers have them. -
This tread contribution is getting senseless...
Arty shells .... ? 50 cal MGs ? What mortal man can survive that ?
Now gentlement, let's get real life scenario perspective.
In a real war scenario.... all marksmanship goes down the drain ..except for snipers. We have someone saying that sticking your head up is stupid, better to scoop... then how objectives are to be achieved. You can flanked, but are you saying enemies are stupid ?
Some of you prefer moblility, true... that does not mean you wouldn't be hit. As I say, many BA can stop rounds up to 7.62. When you're facing an MG, I swear to god that you will be scared sh itless to try to run in an open field for the next cover.
Now, in a Urban clearing mission, anything can pop out from a corner, I would insist on getting an BA. Anyone can take a potshot at you from any window, wouldn't you want some protection... If you see your enemy all armoured up, that will certainly hit a nerve - WTF am I not wear a BA. -
yup but that may only be true if we have a professional army who can train consistently,but what we have is almost hmmm 95% nsf and reservist?Originally posted by LazerLordz:I think the weight complaint is a very immature thing.
Granted, we are a conscript army.But your life in today's battlefield depends on your BA.Even NSmen get deployed on UN missions, and perhaps more will go, is it so hard to wear them?
Once you train hard in them, you will get used to it.If you are able to fight and are PES A, i have nothing to say if these chaps keep complaining.
Common sense tells you BA saves lives.We may not be at war, but who ever knows when we might be sent abroad?
Even if we train up our nsf during their peak fitness 2 years to use BA,it would be impossible to train them up to use them again when they go for reservist esp the part on heat tolerance unless you are talking about way longer reservist training period which you can ensure will affect so many NSmen in their career that it is not feasible.Also it is easy to say this if one is to be only carrying an M16/SAR21 and an additional 6-9kg can be easily handled,but tell that to those MG gunner/84gunner,the combat load they carry is already alot,adding in this additional weight will ensure they will be so emcumbered that they will slow down alot especially for reservist personel who carry these heavy arms.
And do not talk about PES A being that a person is really fit,it is well known that PES status in the SAF is rubbish to begin with with so many MO always thinking that you are marlingering that even if you have real physical problems,you will still be PES A while there are those who are rich enough to engage highly recognised specialist doctors and just get a letter to get a downgrade even if it is not warranted and become PES E. -
Some people wants the average infantryman to be impervious to tank main gun rounds after body armor wad. I can only think of ONE kinda body armore that may do the trick.
its called the Body Reactive Armor. In short, BRA. You wear a BRA, nothing on the battlefield will kill you man!
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I think this is showing up the shortcomings in having a conscripted army.
Look at how the British Army is mostly volunteer professionals, with career soldiers. Even the reservists are 'voluntary'.
Look at how Russia is scaling back its (once-massively) conscripted numbers to rebuild with professional soldiers.
With a force composition of (apparently, going by the threads in this forum) so few professionals, perhaps it is time for sg to look at what the advantages and disadvantages are of a conscripted v professional military force.
With a professional volunteer force you always know that they would be at the peak of their abilities at all times (ergo, be able to operate under harsh conditions with all types of gear, without complaining incessantly to their mothers).
Those that can keep at their peak even after service, often retain their skillsets via the Reserves (Territorial Army - British equivalent).
This means the Military always has a pool of very highly skilled and capable forces, and they do not have to worry about 'skinny, doctors-note-carrying lambs' that do more to hinder (or, indeed, embarrass it) the service than to augment it.
Conscripted armies are good for cannon fodder and paper tigers.
A professional, full-time force is much more of a imposing image on the battlefield to any conscripted army that dares oppose them.
Time for sg to have a rethink? -
might get poked to deathOriginally posted by Shotgun:Some people wants the average infantryman to be impervious to tank main gun rounds after body armor wad. I can only think of ONE kinda body armore that may do the trick.
its called the Body Reactive Armor. In short, BRA. You wear a BRA, nothing on the battlefield will kill you man! 
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Yup, only the BRA itself. An exlosive charge with every hitOriginally posted by Shotgun:Some people wants the average infantryman to be impervious to tank main gun rounds after body armor wad. I can only think of ONE kinda body armore that may do the trick.
its called the Body Reactive Armor. In short, BRA. You wear a BRA, nothing on the battlefield will kill you man! 
I mean you be loosing arms and limp with every hit.... sorry, I can't imagine myself being a suicide bomber ...
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lolOriginally posted by MobyDog:Yup, only the BRA itself. An exlosive charge with every hit
I mean you be loosing arms and limp with every hit.... sorry, I can't imagine myself being a suicide bomber ...
ARTHUR and BLACK KNIGHT:
Aaah!, hiyaah!, etc.
[ ARTHUR chops the BLACK KNIGHT's left arm off]
BLACK KNIGHT:
'Tis but a scratch.
ARTHUR:
A scratch? Your arm's off!
BLACK KNIGHT:
No, it isn't.
ARTHUR:
Well, what's that, then?
BLACK KNIGHT:
I've had worse.
ARTHUR:
You liar!
BLACK KNIGHT:
Come on, you pansy!
Aaaaaaaah!
[ ARTHUR chops the BLACK KNIGHT's right arm off]
BLACK KNIGHT:
Oh, had enough, eh?
ARTHUR:
Look, you stupid bastard. You've got no arms left.
BLACK KNIGHT:
Yes, I have.
ARTHUR:
Look!
BLACK KNIGHT:
Just a flesh wound.
ARTHUR:
Look, stop that.
BLACK KNIGHT:
Chicken!
Chickennn!
ARTHUR:
Look, I'll have your leg.
[ ARTHUR chops the BLACK KNIGHT's right leg off]
BLACK KNIGHT:
Right. I'll do you for that!
ARTHUR:
You'll what?
BLACK KNIGHT:
Come here!
ARTHUR:
What are you going to do, bleed on me?
BLACK KNIGHT:
I'm invincible!
ARTHUR:
You're a looney.
BLACK KNIGHT:
The Black Knight always triumphs! Have at you! Come on, then.
[whop]
[ ARTHUR chops the BLACK KNIGHT's last leg off]
BLACK KNIGHT:
Oh? All right, we'll call it a draw.
BLACK KNIGHT:
Oh. Oh, I see. Running away, eh? You yellow bastards! Come back here and take what's coming to you. I'll bite your legs off! -
Didn't the newspaper report sometime back that this Singaporean duos researched and found this liquid when coated onto kevlar makes it stronger?
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i know the flakjack is bulky and restricts movement to a certain extent. Thats why there is acclimatisation what.
Section Fire and Movement L/F with flakjack has been done many times. And FYI the "movement" aspect is not 4-second rule, but leopard crawling. -
When you have conscription, you should look at the old men running the fields.Originally posted by oxford mushroom:Nelstar talks as if he is Rambo and impervious to bullets, or maybe he thinks he is in the matrix and can dodge bullets. Let him go to the battlefield with his black robe and spectacles instead of helmets and body armour then.
I will go for body armour, especially when even US soldiers have them. -
The need for BA varies from case to case.
As a LRRP, I'd already be humping 47kg of sh!t through the boonies - there's no way I would want to carry any more weight. Even in a strike company, the movement to target would be easily 20km, at the end of which I'd have to perform an assault - again, weight would be a concern.
As has been said previously, if you're patrollng and your range is reasonably short, the disadvantage of carrying BA may not be enough to outweigh the advantages. As the war is currently being fought in Iran, the troops are operating with a relatively short range. Somehow, I doubt that they would be wearing BA if they had to go and clear Scud Alley all over again.
And what's a REMF need BA for? -
I think your trend goes against the whole world at the moment.Originally posted by Nelstar:If they are deployed for peacekeeping missions, I can see the need of such vests. However, in a scenario where we will be facing heavy firefight, such practise not only harass movement, it constitutes other minor problems which will affect a soldier's well-being in warfare.
Moreover, the protection given by such vests is nearly negligible, considering the weapons that the army are using. Yes, it protect the body but it has its limitations. We're all well aware that explosives, high-penetrating bullets (yes, rifles and machine-guns) are deployed in war and these armour does little but give a false sense of security and lumber down movement of all sort.
It's a good piece of equipment in peace-time, no doubts, but practising it in warfare is definitely not recommended and our dearest oxford mushroom is suggesting having that for war. Perhaps he's growing mushrooms in his skull after visiting the oxford library.
Armor is an essential in heavy ops. -
LOL nice build up prior to the stinger.Originally posted by Gedanken:The need for BA varies from case to case.
As a LRRP, I'd already be humping 47kg of sh!t through the boonies - there's no way I would want to carry any more weight. Even in a strike company, the movement to target would be easily 20km, at the end of which I'd have to perform an assault - again, weight would be a concern.
As has been said previously, if you're patrollng and your range is reasonably short, the disadvantage of carrying BA may not be enough to outweigh the advantages. As the war is currently being fought in Iran, the troops are operating with a relatively short range. Somehow, I doubt that they would be wearing BA if they had to go and clear Scud Alley all over again.
And what's a REMF need BA for? -
Agree.Originally posted by MobyDog:This tread contribution is getting senseless...
Arty shells .... ? 50 cal MGs ? What mortal man can survive that ?
Now gentlement, let's get real life scenario perspective.
In a real war scenario.... all marksmanship goes down the drain ..except for snipers. We have someone saying that sticking your head up is stupid, better to scoop... then how objectives are to be achieved. You can flanked, but are you saying enemies are stupid ?
Some of you prefer moblility, true... that does not mean you wouldn't be hit. As I say, many BA can stop rounds up to 7.62. When you're facing an MG, I swear to god that you will be scared sh itless to try to run in an open field for the next cover.
Now, in a Urban clearing mission, anything can pop out from a corner, I would insist on getting an BA. Anyone can take a potshot at you from any window, wouldn't you want some protection... If you see your enemy all armoured up, that will certainly hit a nerve - WTF am I not wear a BA.
But if protection and mobility can go together, it would be the best protection one can have. Imagine having a body armour that can block everything but hinders mobility. As with all materials, it will give in after a while. On the other hand, having a vest that provides minimum protection but offers maximum mobility is not good either because all it takes is a few shots to kill you.
For everything, one has to strike a balance. In warfare, although it can be quite impossible to do so, one can try to find a compromise somewhere. An alert mind and sharp thinking still matters in warfare. No point having everything to protect you but you aren't alert and sharp enough. There's a limit to what things can do for you and you have to help yourself after that. -
Now that we have heard from various replies.
We can conclude that The Use of BA is mission specific. Well, because the govt cannot provide BA for everyone.. due to cost. Also depends whether the immediate zone you operate is a Hot zone. REMF of course, do not require BA most of the time.
If you're the MO in a hot zone where gun fire are sometimes a block away. The CO would definately require you to armour up. On Lrrp mission, the objective to scout the area, then mobility is crucial, since you are expected to scoot from the AO. I have seen US troops wearing their BA in the Iraqi Desert for hours on end, so what make them able to take the heat that we asian in tropical environment can't.
So, gentlement ... BA is a useful, If it is require for me to hump 20 km than moblity is key. But in urban and security detail than BA is good. -
Correct. Too hot to wear BA?!?! Dears, the temperature in Iraq can hit 50 celcius! Still the troops seem more happy to be sweaty than...you guessed it...dead!
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ermm hot is one thing,humidity is another.our humid tropical enviroment make it even more unbearable that just heat itself alone.Originally posted by lwflee:Correct. Too hot to wear BA?!?! Dears, the temperature in Iraq can hit 50 celcius! Still the troops seem more happy to be sweaty than...you guessed it...dead!