Have u done Guard duty where you almost used the 5 rounds?
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I remember many years ago when I did my first guard duty, I was issued with 3 live rounds magazine. I thought it was cool! But my RSM warned me don't load and fire any rounds, no matter what happen. Wah liao! I was so disappointed!
Nowadays, I noticed CISCO guard carrying machine guns doing guard duties at some units. I think they are serious. Dont' play play ah! -
Against code of ethics also...never fire on someone's back...Originally posted by Shotgun:I think u would have been in deep shit if u return fire. No matter what, u cannot open fire on a guy who's back is facing u. -
I know someone who did guard duty and almost lost all the 5 rounds.
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sure or not? Khatib camp is surrounded by housing estate leh. won't that cause a commotion?
Originally posted by NDU:ok
i have story to share as well.... but this was true life story.
quite sometime ago, our dear changi friend's wanna attack some camp in surprice, as this was their usual training however, on this day, they are task to get into khatib camp, mayb nows day it seen to us that khatib camp GOT NOTHING! and its just a place where we go for IPPT and etc, but.... if you really think about it, you will know why my GUNNER are all located at Khatib.
during that time, security at Khatib was known to be upmost important and to penetrate was not an easy task. Our changi friends mission was to land at Sembawang
(our home ground) and heading toward their's target by FEET
thing went prefectly ok,...... but not until our friend's trying to cut those fend by force. out of no where, a guard FIRED one warning shot! and guess what, all changi friends all retreat like hell!
this was a real life story, as we did doing ambush as well, after this incident, we are told, DURING OUR EX, IF SWAY SWAY BEING CAUGHT OR SOMETHING LIKE THAT HAPPEN! we have to identified ourself and MADE SURE NO PLAYING PANK WITH DUTY GUARD! as.... we dont know WHAT ACTION they will carry out, and allmission has to carry out safty, OFCOZ, IF CAN RUN AWAY! ... kekekeke we better RUN AWAY.
lastly, for what we know, that duty guard who fired didnot get anything as hes doing his duty
any OLD BIRD GUNNER know abt this? -
You must fully understand your ROE card before firing any shots. ROE card is to protect you not confusing you. I know some rules stated in ROE card is confusing. Like the situation that thread starter stated just now. What happen if the "handgun" is real? ROE card says that "You may use lethal force if you or your buddy or your camp is under hostile threat." In the situation mention above, pointing a handgun towards your direction is a already a "hostile act". You felt threaten, you felt your live is in danger, you may shoot.
But please take note above the threat level. I believe ROE card also states that "Use ENOUGH force to stop the threat." Lets say a guy is holding a parang charging at you from 50 meters away. You are threaten but NOT live endangering although "hostile act" has taken place because he is still 50 meters away. You may fire at his legs or choose to use you CCT which your have been taught. But pointing a handgun at you from 100 meters is a totally different case. Thats why you must act accordingly to the ROE card.
Also take note about "hostile act" and "hostile intend". A guy holding a parang strolling around aimlessly is a "hostile intend" because he hasn't take any action against you or your buddy or the place you are required to protect. In this situation you should comms back to your higher HQ at the same time gives a proper warning. Point your weapon (DON'T CORK) and challenge him by shouting "STOP" if he stops, ask him to put down his parang, move 10 steps to either left or right and prone down. If the suspect didn't stop challenge him again and if he fails to comply, you MUST give a final warning which is "STOP OR I'LL SHOOT" at the same time cork your weapon. If he fails to comply and RUN away, YOU DON'T SHOOT. Running away means that the threat is gone.
If suspect is pointing a handgun, there isn't a need to give a warning because the situation doesn't allow you to do so. -
Against code of ethics also...never fire on someone's back...
Wah liao! which school you come from??? If someone fire at you and run away, you think his back or front face you? -
something is wrong if you use the 5 rounds dring guard duty
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I remember at one camp I was at, the rifles used for guard duty, the magazine catch was set in such a way that it would not, well, catch any magazine. That is, if you tried to load a magazine, the magazine would just drop out. Imagine if something really happened. The guard had to remember to push the catch back into position to load a magazine. That's an example of "wayang" guard duty.
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He won't.Originally posted by Ponders:At that point of time, it is only right to fire back as you cannot afford to assume it is a toy weapon.
But my biggest worry is, "Will my RSM/CO back me up?"
You trying to shoot someone outside the camp? That's not allowed. -
The 5 rounds are just for a very very rare instance. But still, if things happen, proper ROE should be followed. Also, the ROE is simply a guide, and its the sentry/guard on duty has to interpret the rules. Even if a guy comes by with a gun and points it at you without shooting, you may fire a warning shot and if he persists, fire at him.
But curious about the warning shot issue, my Air Force RP friend told me that if confronted, they will have to fire off one round 1st as warning before engaging the target. If the Investigative unit finds that only one round has been fired, the sentry/guard would be in for trouble. But was wondering, if the sentry/guard fires at the intruder first, and then fires a second shot, how would that count? -
Me had one near-firing situational encounter before when me was serving my fulltime service. It happened in a NS Camp in Clementi area in 1996. Me remembered that me was the only rifle-trained guard on duty that day and the rest of the guards were on truncheon-and-shield. There was an armed fight within the camp between a SSG and 3SG as the SSG used a 20cm blade knife to attack the 3SG.Originally posted by Ponders:This happened to me once and from here i realised how SAF training has made us worry too much.
I was guard comd, and someone on a motorcycle zoom pass, his pillion rider aimed a toy revolver and fire "shots" (those make noise only).
At that point of time, it is only right to fire back as you cannot afford to assume it is a toy weapon.
But my biggest worry is, "Will my RSM/CO back me up?"
ROE says, i can skip steps if I know there is immediate threat. But without proper witnesses (those present are month old recruits), I am scared during inquiry there is just lack of evidence to back me up.
So i decided (at this point of time, motocycle far far away liao), that no action to be taken. But it is this incident, where even as a guard comd, i don't think my words will ever be taken seriously if i were to fire those shots and justify my actions.
Anyway, i am very confident that those 5 shots will miss.
So you guys, what would you have done? Shoot or don't shoot?
Or you see one person down already then confirm shoot back?
DO called up Guardroom and activated Guard Cmdr for Riot Turnout. Me so sway, been the only rifle-trained guard to draw 5 rounds and load into rifle (but never cocked yet) and ran all the way to the Specialist's Mess while trying to fix my bayonet to the muzzle.
On arrival, me saw the 3SG on the ground and the SSG with the weapon in his hand. DO instructed Guard Cmdr to execute, shouting at the SSG to drop his weapon, or else he will be shot. The SSG didn't heed the warning and charged towards my Guard Cmdr. Immediately, DO shouted: "On guard! Shoot at limbs!" Me stunned for a while and quickly cocked my weapon and "Bang!". One shot out and my shot hit the SSG's thigh, but he still charged towards my Guard Cmdr. DO shouted again: "Shoot at body!". Another shot was fired and the SSG dropped onto the ground. "Guard! Move forward and secure!" DO said.
Me moved forward and kicked the weapon away. The SSG was moaning in pain as my shot hit his right shoulder. When me looked back, me saw my Guard Cmdr was still in shock, maybe due to the sudden turn of event.
2 rounds out of 5 were enough to earn two months of regular visits (almost became a daily event for me) to SAFPU and MINDEF Gombak for statements and investigations! -
Absolute nonsense!Originally posted by Icemoon:He won't.
You trying to shoot someone outside the camp? That's not allowed.
The basic guiding principle is you are allowed to use proportional force to protect life, limb and SAF property.
If this case, if someone is pointing a gun at you, I do not think there is a need to fire a warning shot! You are authorised by the ROE to fire in that situation because there is a real and imminent threat to your life!
The problem with his scenario is that the threat has passed. There is therefore no threat to you anymore and therefore you cannot fire.
Looking at some of the posts here, I think there needs to be alot more ROE training! -
Wah - Scary situation! At least the DO has balls. I have had DOs with a lot less balls than that!Originally posted by dork3d:Me had one near-firing situational encounter before when me was serving my fulltime service. It happened in a NS Camp in Clementi area in 1996. Me remembered that me was the only rifle-trained guard on duty that day and the rest of the guards were on truncheon-and-shield. There was an armed fight within the camp between a SSG and 3SG as the SSG used a 20cm blade knife to attack the 3SG.
DO called up Guardroom and activated Guard Cmdr for Riot Turnout. Me so sway, been the only rifle-trained guard to draw 5 rounds and load into rifle (but never cocked yet) and ran all the way to the Specialist's Mess while trying to fix my bayonet to the muzzle.
On arrival, me saw the 3SG on the ground and the SSG with the weapon in his hand. DO instructed Guard Cmdr to execute, shouting at the SSG to drop his weapon, or else he will be shot. The SSG didn't heed the warning and charged towards my Guard Cmdr. Immediately, DO shouted: "On guard! Shoot at limbs!" Me stunned for a while and quickly cocked my weapon and "Bang!". One shot out and my shot hit the SSG's thigh, but he still charged towards my Guard Cmdr. DO shouted again: "Shoot at body!". Another shot was fired and the SSG dropped onto the ground. "Guard! Move forward and secure!" DO said.
Me moved forward and kicked the weapon away. The SSG was moaning in pain as my shot hit his right shoulder. When me looked back, me saw my Guard Cmdr was still in shock, maybe due to the sudden turn of event.
2 rounds out of 5 were enough to earn two months of regular visits (almost became a daily event for me) to SAFPU and MINDEF Gombak for statements and investigations! -
I always prayed that such things would never happen when I was GCmdr.Originally posted by dork3d:Me had one near-firing situational encounter before when me was serving my fulltime service. It happened in a NS Camp in Clementi area in 1996. Me remembered that me was the only rifle-trained guard on duty that day and the rest of the guards were on truncheon-and-shield. There was an armed fight within the camp between a SSG and 3SG as the SSG used a 20cm blade knife to attack the 3SG.
DO called up Guardroom and activated Guard Cmdr for Riot Turnout. Me so sway, been the only rifle-trained guard to draw 5 rounds and load into rifle (but never cocked yet) and ran all the way to the Specialist's Mess while trying to fix my bayonet to the muzzle.
On arrival, me saw the 3SG on the ground and the SSG with the weapon in his hand. DO instructed Guard Cmdr to execute, shouting at the SSG to drop his weapon, or else he will be shot. The SSG didn't heed the warning and charged towards my Guard Cmdr. Immediately, DO shouted: "On guard! Shoot at limbs!" Me stunned for a while and quickly cocked my weapon and "Bang!". One shot out and my shot hit the SSG's thigh, but he still charged towards my Guard Cmdr. DO shouted again: "Shoot at body!". Another shot was fired and the SSG dropped onto the ground. "Guard! Move forward and secure!" DO said.
Me moved forward and kicked the weapon away. The SSG was moaning in pain as my shot hit his right shoulder. When me looked back, me saw my Guard Cmdr was still in shock, maybe due to the sudden turn of event.
2 rounds out of 5 were enough to earn two months of regular visits (almost became a daily event for me) to SAFPU and MINDEF Gombak for statements and investigations!
But your DO did the right thing, but I think the SSG was already out of his mind..a 20CM knife? Maybe if he had a penknife, two guards with baton and shield could have overpowered him. -
OMG! So dramatic! You aren't joking are you?Originally posted by dork3d:Me had one near-firing situational encounter before when me was serving my fulltime service. It happened in a NS Camp in Clementi area in 1996. Me remembered that me was the only rifle-trained guard on duty that day and the rest of the guards were on truncheon-and-shield. There was an armed fight within the camp between a SSG and 3SG as the SSG used a 20cm blade knife to attack the 3SG.
DO called up Guardroom and activated Guard Cmdr for Riot Turnout. Me so sway, been the only rifle-trained guard to draw 5 rounds and load into rifle (but never cocked yet) and ran all the way to the Specialist's Mess while trying to fix my bayonet to the muzzle.
On arrival, me saw the 3SG on the ground and the SSG with the weapon in his hand. DO instructed Guard Cmdr to execute, shouting at the SSG to drop his weapon, or else he will be shot. The SSG didn't heed the warning and charged towards my Guard Cmdr. Immediately, DO shouted: "On guard! Shoot at limbs!" Me stunned for a while and quickly cocked my weapon and "Bang!". One shot out and my shot hit the SSG's thigh, but he still charged towards my Guard Cmdr. DO shouted again: "Shoot at body!". Another shot was fired and the SSG dropped onto the ground. "Guard! Move forward and secure!" DO said.
Me moved forward and kicked the weapon away. The SSG was moaning in pain as my shot hit his right shoulder. When me looked back, me saw my Guard Cmdr was still in shock, maybe due to the sudden turn of event.
2 rounds out of 5 were enough to earn two months of regular visits (almost became a daily event for me) to SAFPU and MINDEF Gombak for statements and investigations! -
Me's not joking. It happened in 1996, and overnight, my name was sprattered everywhere in camp, SAFPU and MINDEF! And me broke the record of been the 1st to fire rifle while on guard duty!Originally posted by cornyfish2000:OMG! So dramatic! You aren't joking are you? -
Hmm. Try to stay a little low profile okay.Originally posted by dork3d:Me's not joking. It happened in 1996, and overnight, my name was sprattered everywhere in camp, SAFPU and MINDEF! And me broke the record of been the 1st to fire rifle while on guard duty! -
The situation is tricky.Originally posted by lwflee:Absolute nonsense!
The basic guiding principle is you are allowed to use proportional force to protect life, limb and SAF property.
If this case, if someone is pointing a gun at you, I do not think there is a need to fire a warning shot! You are authorised by the ROE to fire in that situation because there is a real and imminent threat to your life!
The problem with his scenario is that the threat has passed. There is therefore no threat to you anymore and therefore you cannot fire.
Looking at some of the posts here, I think there needs to be alot more ROE training!
Firstly, the person is outside camp and just driving past. Not as if he is charging towards the gate with a gun.
Secondly, what if you hit innocent people?
If you kill someone outside SAF's property, it'll cause an outcry. You have lots of explanation to do. -
The guy did what will look like a "driveby shooting", he on a motorcycle and shooting away a toy guy that makes noise somewhat similar to real shots.Originally posted by Icemoon:The situation is tricky.
Firstly, the person is outside camp and just driving past. Not as if he is charging towards the gate with a gun.
Secondly, what if you hit innocent people?
If you kill someone outside SAF's property, it'll cause an outcry. You have lots of explanation to do.
In ROE, that can be considered a threat on SAF property AND SAF personnel, it does not matter if it is within SAF grounds.
I am more worried on what i might hit if i miss the target. It's Changi Airport's Fuel Silo. HAHA
I don't want to be centre of international media. -
If you do Jurong Island duty.... happens many times.Originally posted by ditzy:I know someone who did guard duty and almost lost all the 5 rounds.
It sabos your platoon their rest time. -
What SAF property is visible from outside? The sentry box?Originally posted by Ponders:In ROE, that can be considered a threat on SAF property AND SAF personnel, it does not matter if it is within SAF grounds. -
SAF Ferry terminal .... everything is visible.Originally posted by Icemoon:What SAF property is visible from outside? The sentry box?
At length of LCK and Paya Lebar you can see the tail fin or the top of the cockpit from the road also. haha -
You're shifting the goalposts! You said words to the effect of "SAF soldiers are not allowed to shoot someone outside the camp".Originally posted by Icemoon:The situation is tricky.
Firstly, the person is outside camp and just driving past. Not as if he is charging towards the gate with a gun.
Secondly, what if you hit innocent people?
If you kill someone outside SAF's property, it'll cause an outcry. You have lots of explanation to do.
That is utterly and incontrovertibly nonsense.
As I said, if merely driving past, in practice, you will not usually be able to fire back although at the point where he is firing or pretending to fire at you, you are entitled to defend yourself.
Re hitting innocents/outcry etc., I'd rather have my day in court than be dead there and then. After all, I can always hang myself later in jail. -
oh my gosh! is this for real? the SSG should thank heaven and earth that he is still alive after 2 shots. imagine what if the shooter is a bobo and instead of aiming the limbs he shot the heart or head?
nevertheless i still find your story to be very shocking. did this incident appears in the papers? what happened to the SSG after that?Originally posted by dork3d:Me had one near-firing situational encounter before when me was serving my fulltime service. It happened in a NS Camp in Clementi area in 1996. Me remembered that me was the only rifle-trained guard on duty that day and the rest of the guards were on truncheon-and-shield. There was an armed fight within the camp between a SSG and 3SG as the SSG used a 20cm blade knife to attack the 3SG.
DO called up Guardroom and activated Guard Cmdr for Riot Turnout. Me so sway, been the only rifle-trained guard to draw 5 rounds and load into rifle (but never cocked yet) and ran all the way to the Specialist's Mess while trying to fix my bayonet to the muzzle.
On arrival, me saw the 3SG on the ground and the SSG with the weapon in his hand. DO instructed Guard Cmdr to execute, shouting at the SSG to drop his weapon, or else he will be shot. The SSG didn't heed the warning and charged towards my Guard Cmdr. Immediately, DO shouted: "On guard! Shoot at limbs!" Me stunned for a while and quickly cocked my weapon and "Bang!". One shot out and my shot hit the SSG's thigh, but he still charged towards my Guard Cmdr. DO shouted again: "Shoot at body!". Another shot was fired and the SSG dropped onto the ground. "Guard! Move forward and secure!" DO said.
Me moved forward and kicked the weapon away. The SSG was moaning in pain as my shot hit his right shoulder. When me looked back, me saw my Guard Cmdr was still in shock, maybe due to the sudden turn of event.
2 rounds out of 5 were enough to earn two months of regular visits (almost became a daily event for me) to SAFPU and MINDEF Gombak for statements and investigations! -
Me had one near-firing situational encounter before when me was serving my fulltime service. It happened in a NS Camp in Clementi area in 1996. Me remembered that me was the only rifle-trained guard on duty that day and the rest of the guards were on truncheon-and-shield. There was an armed.......
Really ah? Very dramatic man! If I were you my hand will be shaking like hell. I think can make into a movie.