Have u done Guard duty where you almost used the 5 rounds?
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Is the motorcyclist and pillion out of their mind?
They obviously trying to provoke SAF!
In my opinion, you should shoot...
If anything goes wrong, just cover up..
But if you shoot some minister's son or rich man's son,
then too bad... cannot cover...
You'll be charged no matter you are right or wrong....
It's a Hei1 An4 place. -
i think at that point when adrenalin is pumping,u wouldn't feel anything..but after that then he'll feel afraid..
ur DO did the right thing i guess..still it has to be said that he ordered the shooting of a soldier.. -
How about giving verbal warning first, then maybe fire at the sky? before you even think of firing at his non-critical limbs etc.Originally posted by Ponders:This happened to me once and from here i realised how SAF training has made us worry too much.
I was guard comd, and someone on a motorcycle zoom pass, his pillion rider aimed a toy revolver and fire "shots" (those make noise only).
At that point of time, it is only right to fire back as you cannot afford to assume it is a toy weapon.
But my biggest worry is, "Will my RSM/CO back me up?"
ROE says, i can skip steps if I know there is immediate threat. But without proper witnesses (those present are month old recruits), I am scared during inquiry there is just lack of evidence to back me up.
So i decided (at this point of time, motocycle far far away liao), that no action to be taken. But it is this incident, where even as a guard comd, i don't think my words will ever be taken seriously if i were to fire those shots and justify my actions.
Anyway, i am very confident that those 5 shots will miss.
So you guys, what would you have done? Shoot or don't shoot?
Or you see one person down already then confirm shoot back?
If not enough time, you can always fire at the sky first. Anyway, you can let him fire first, ofcuz ask everyone to stay and dodge in the guard room/house. If his pistol is real, then fire back loh.
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Oh my gosh, if hit head or heart, it will be very gross....imagine the sputtered head and large hole behind the back...etc.Originally posted by Gordonator:oh my gosh! is this for real?
the SSG should thank heaven and earth that he is still alive after 2 shots. imagine what if the shooter is a bobo and instead of aiming the limbs he shot the heart or head?
nevertheless i still find your story to be very shocking. did this incident appears in the papers? what happened to the SSG after that?
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Whether this is allowed or not is up for the civilian? court to decide. You will have a hard time proving yourself in court. And SAF will hate you for getting them into this big mess.Originally posted by lwflee:You're shifting the goalposts! You said words to the effect of "SAF soldiers are not allowed to shoot someone outside the camp".
That is utterly and incontrovertibly nonsense.
As I said, if merely driving past, in practice, you will not usually be able to fire back although at the point where he is firing or pretending to fire at you, you are entitled to defend yourself.
Re hitting innocents/outcry etc., I'd rather have my day in court than be dead there and then. After all, I can always hang myself later in jail.
I don't deny the right to self defend but only when the threat is real, and not some perceived threat. -
Hmm... I don't know if this situation I'm about to mention can be compared, but it's pretty much a similar case.
There was an attempted robbery at the Jalan Jurong Kechil branch of Maybank sometime last year or the previous year. A man took out a toy pistol as well and then received two shots by the guard on duty.
In this case, there was no "chance" or "time" for the guard on duty to wait for any live rounds to be fired from the robber before he decided that it was a real gun. So, protecting the rest of the bank staff and customers, he opened fire on that guy. That guy obviously got charged and all. I don't think anything happened to the guard though.. -
Because the law allows for such things.Originally posted by Kr0n:Hmm... I don't know if this situation I'm about to mention can be compared, but it's pretty much a similar case.
There was an attempted robbery at the Jalan Jurong Kechil branch of Maybank sometime last year or the previous year. A man took out a toy pistol as well and then received two shots by the guard on duty.
In this case, there was no "chance" or "time" for the guard on duty to wait for any live rounds to be fired from the robber before he decided that it was a real gun. So, protecting the rest of the bank staff and customers, he opened fire on that guy. That guy obviously got charged and all. I don't think anything happened to the guard though..
If you use a toy gun in a way that makes people believes its a real gun. It is still considered armed robbery. -
I think armed robbery is a capital offence in Singapore, punishable by death. That maybank armed robber got the hangman, didn't he?Originally posted by Kr0n:Hmm... I don't know if this situation I'm about to mention can be compared, but it's pretty much a similar case.
There was an attempted robbery at the Jalan Jurong Kechil branch of Maybank sometime last year or the previous year. A man took out a toy pistol as well and then received two shots by the guard on duty.
In this case, there was no "chance" or "time" for the guard on duty to wait for any live rounds to be fired from the robber before he decided that it was a real gun. So, protecting the rest of the bank staff and customers, he opened fire on that guy. That guy obviously got charged and all. I don't think anything happened to the guard though.. -
maybe U can be comforted by the fact that both SAFPU and MINDEF are close to ur camp...at least dun have to travel so far...imagine ur camp at selarang....Originally posted by dork3d:2 rounds out of 5 were enough to earn two months of regular visits (almost became a daily event for me) to SAFPU and MINDEF Gombak for statements and investigations!
anyway...my guard duty incidents not as exciting as U....got chased by police dogs...go check out my RSM in the dark who was shifting some equipment with heavy machinery...only once kenna this guy who was trying to climb in the back gate of my camp...2 of us prowling the area happen to see it...so we shouted for the guy to stop....the place was dark btw...the guy didnt stop...I loaded my mag into my M16...didnt ready it....shouted our warning again...then the guy backed off to his side of the gate(which is still SAF area) and ran...we ran to the gate just in time to see the guy turn to a small dirt road...we radioed for my guard com to come down and when he come down we left...dunno whether he reported the incident or not...my guess is that most likely the guy is some illegal immigrant from up north. -
I don't understand why ppl who are illegal in singapore have the tendency to enter Army camps...Originally posted by Xcert:.my guess is that most likely the guy is some illegal immigrant from up north.
1) Three robbers picked Pulau tekong of all islands.
2) illegals swim to tekong instead of ubin.
3) thai workers got drunk and try to climb into a mainland camp to find place to sleep. -
army camps very big and very dark and secluded what..they feel that nobody will disturb them there..Originally posted by Ponders:I don't understand why ppl who are illegal in singapore have the tendency to enter Army camps...
1) Three robbers picked Pulau tekong of all islands.
2) illegals swim to tekong instead of ubin.
3) thai workers got drunk and try to climb into a mainland camp to find place to sleep. -
Nope, armed robbery = jail + cane only.Originally posted by minimalis:I think armed robbery is a capital offence in Singapore, punishable by death. That maybank armed robber got the hangman, didn't he? -
Just wondering... was the DO an NSF?Originally posted by dork3d:Me's not joking. It happened in 1996, and overnight, my name was sprattered everywhere in camp, SAFPU and MINDEF! And me broke the record of been the 1st to fire rifle while on guard duty! -
Think your Air Force RP told you the wrong thing. That rule only apply to certain situation.Originally posted by SpecOps87:The 5 rounds are just for a very very rare instance. But still, if things happen, proper ROE should be followed. Also, the ROE is simply a guide, and its the sentry/guard on duty has to interpret the rules. Even if a guy comes by with a gun and points it at you without shooting, you may fire a warning shot and if he persists, fire at him.
But curious about the warning shot issue, my Air Force RP friend told me that if confronted, they will have to fire off one round 1st as warning before engaging the target. If the Investigative unit finds that only one round has been fired, the sentry/guard would be in for trouble. But was wondering, if the sentry/guard fires at the intruder first, and then fires a second shot, how would that count?
Yes there is situation which 1 shot will be fire off as warning first, like if a group of people trying to use force to break through the gate.
But if someone put a gun (the act itself is hostile), the procedure is to take cover and ready to engage. Warning shot will just instantly create a shoot out, sometime it is better if everyone is already undercover and ready to engage to issue verbal warning for him to put the gun down.
But the moment he is about to point the gun to anyone, you shoot, don't even want to be wasting a warning shot, you will need every single rounds, if the target is armed. -
The illegal guys got cheated by the smugglers who told them that Tekong is Singapore. one of my friend in SISPEC even told me they ask an encik where to take the bus to town! One even drowned while trying to evade the guard prowlers from BMTC. they should check their atlases b4 attempting to come!Originally posted by Ponders:I don't understand why ppl who are illegal in singapore have the tendency to enter Army camps...
1) Three robbers picked Pulau tekong of all islands.
2) illegals swim to tekong instead of ubin.
3) thai workers got drunk and try to climb into a mainland camp to find place to sleep. -
The illegal guys got cheated by the smugglers who told them that Tekong is Singapore. one of my friend in SISPEC even told me they ask an encik where to take the bus to town! One even drowned while trying to evade the guard prowlers from BMTC. they should check their atlases b4 attempting to come!Originally posted by Ponders:I don't understand why ppl who are illegal in singapore have the tendency to enter Army camps...
1) Three robbers picked Pulau tekong of all islands.
2) illegals swim to tekong instead of ubin.
3) thai workers got drunk and try to climb into a mainland camp to find place to sleep. -
There are trigger happy soldiers.
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Sorry but I don't know if your story is believable or not. It is because there are a few things which needed to be clarify. Firstly, what happen to the other guards carrying the truncheon and wickershield? There are different levels of force which should be used accordingly to the degree of threat in the situation. Using firepower is the last and extreme level of force, and I strongly believe the other guards with the truncheon and wickershield should be enough show of force to overpower ONE guy with only A KNIFE. Secondly, its logical that unless the DO is a very high ranking and very experienced officer, he is definitely unable to issue such exact accurate orders calmly under such intense pressure. It would probably be something like, " Oi, block the guy! whack him and pin him down!" Yes, guards on duty always have to undergo riot drills everytime the are on guard duty but under such immmediate pressure, everything can forget. Its true. Also, I would not think one would have time to cock the rifle, unless the guy is far away. Lastly, I strongly believe if you really shoot the guy, your first shot would have immobilise him as M16 is a very powerful weapon and if I'm not wrong, the shot that hit his thigh would have rip his thigh apart and he would not be able to move anymore. Correct me If I'm wrong. Also, I went for provost course and I have never heard of the people at provost citing such a real life example of ROE before. Sorry, just doubtful about some information you were saying thats all.Originally posted by dork3d:Me had one near-firing situational encounter before when me was serving my fulltime service. It happened in a NS Camp in Clementi area in 1996. Me remembered that me was the only rifle-trained guard on duty that day and the rest of the guards were on truncheon-and-shield. There was an armed fight within the camp between a SSG and 3SG as the SSG used a 20cm blade knife to attack the 3SG.
DO called up Guardroom and activated Guard Cmdr for Riot Turnout. Me so sway, been the only rifle-trained guard to draw 5 rounds and load into rifle (but never cocked yet) and ran all the way to the Specialist's Mess while trying to fix my bayonet to the muzzle.
On arrival, me saw the 3SG on the ground and the SSG with the weapon in his hand. DO instructed Guard Cmdr to execute, shouting at the SSG to drop his weapon, or else he will be shot. The SSG didn't heed the warning and charged towards my Guard Cmdr. Immediately, DO shouted: "On guard! Shoot at limbs!" Me stunned for a while and quickly cocked my weapon and "Bang!". One shot out and my shot hit the SSG's thigh, but he still charged towards my Guard Cmdr. DO shouted again: "Shoot at body!". Another shot was fired and the SSG dropped onto the ground. "Guard! Move forward and secure!" DO said.
Me moved forward and kicked the weapon away. The SSG was moaning in pain as my shot hit his right shoulder. When me looked back, me saw my Guard Cmdr was still in shock, maybe due to the sudden turn of event.
2 rounds out of 5 were enough to earn two months of regular visits (almost became a daily event for me) to SAFPU and MINDEF Gombak for statements and investigations! -
Yes. It is up to the court to decide. And the court has ruled many times in the past on self-defence. IE you can use necc, reasonable and proportional force to react to a danger to life, limb and property.Originally posted by Icemoon:Whether this is allowed or not is up for the civilian? court to decide. You will have a hard time proving yourself in court. And SAF will hate you for getting them into this big mess.
I don't deny the right to self defend but only when the threat is real, and not some perceived threat.
And the threat need not be real. The issue is whether you honestly believed that there was a threat and that it was neccessary for you to react in the way you did.
Now, putting aside the law for a moment, and looking at the issue from a commonsene angle. Is it logical and commonsense that a soldier on guard cannot engage someone outside of camp? The answer is clearly, no. What if the person has an RPG and is taking aim outside the camp? By your version of ROE, no one can engage him and all we can do is take cover. -
Sometimes its construction workers taking a shortcut through the camo or coming in to steal things since they know when the company has gone for a road march etc.Originally posted by Ponders:I don't understand why ppl who are illegal in singapore have the tendency to enter Army camps...
1) Three robbers picked Pulau tekong of all islands.
2) illegals swim to tekong instead of ubin.
3) thai workers got drunk and try to climb into a mainland camp to find place to sleep. -
kranji camp ever had a case where 1 guy on guard duty went crazy, loaded and readied his weapon and tried to shoot the GC. quite an old case though, forgot 80s or 90s. it was 1 of those 'past incidents' thing they pasted on the wall.
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I try to answer for him...
Originally posted by dinky1409:
Attacker is already charging with a knife to a 3SG, a 20CM knife is easily found in the mess. Yes, if situation permits, i think truncheon and wickershield should be used first. But it is a threat that is already causing immediate danger.
[b]
Sorry but I don't know if your story is believable or not. It is because there are a few things which needed to be clarify. Firstly, what happen to the other guards carrying the truncheon and wickershield? There are different levels of force which should be used accordingly to the degree of threat in the situation.Secondly, its logical that unless the DO is a very high ranking and very experienced officer, he is definitely unable to issue such exact accurate orders calmly under such intense pressure. It would probably be something like, " Oi, block the guy! whack him and pin him down!" Yes, guards on duty always have to undergo riot drills everytime the are on guard duty but under such immmediate pressure, everything can forget. Its true. Also, I would not think one would have time to cock the rifle, unless the guy is far away.
he just might be a siao on DO who during his free time read the ROE clearly. And he is talking about 1990s, duty briefings were taken more seriously than nowadays. Just the right DO and the right day. just speculating for this though.Lastly, I strongly believe if you really shoot the guy, your first shot would have immobilise him as M16 is a very powerful weapon and if I'm not wrong, the shot that hit his thigh would have rip his thigh apart and he would not be able to move anymore. Correct me If I'm wrong. Also, I went for provost course and I have never heard of the people at provost citing such a real life example of ROE before. Sorry, just doubtful about some information you were saying thats all.
Not all m16 wounds will create a large exit wound. We are using a FMJ, at short distances, the bullet will just penetrate, though i think it is dangerous to shoot a 5.56 indoors.
Anyway, i am just commenting... so if you want to hear the real story.. wait for the poster. haha. -
Sad of them to evade BMTC prowlers... hahaOriginally posted by decepticon25:The illegal guys got cheated by the smugglers who told them that Tekong is Singapore. one of my friend in SISPEC even told me they ask an encik where to take the bus to town! One even drowned while trying to evade the guard prowlers from BMTC. they should check their atlases b4 attempting to come!
How harmful can BMTC prowlers be? -
STOP!!STOP!!STOP OR I'LL WHACK YOU!!Originally posted by Ponders:Sad of them to evade BMTC prowlers... haha
How harmful can BMTC prowlers be? -
well...I dunno...but my camp in north of singapore...closest mah...Originally posted by Ponders:I don't understand why ppl who are illegal in singapore have the tendency to enter Army camps...
1) Three robbers picked Pulau tekong of all islands.
2) illegals swim to tekong instead of ubin.
3) thai workers got drunk and try to climb into a mainland camp to find place to sleep. ...their map slightly better...better than the 3 jokers who ended up in Tekong