Sq 117 hijack
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Well are you inside the plane ? Then how can you comment on SOF professional and the terrorist professional or not ? You ownself just slapped your own face brother !Originally posted by Icemoon:Were you inside the plane? Or have we progressed to another argument whether they were professional in clearing passengers and other post-killing activities?
So what did you see beside the butter knives and the "explosives"? An AK-47?
Where you there to take one look at the explosive and tell that it is not real ?
Where can you tell that it is not ignited by push of button type ?
A good question, while we are securing the perimeters at the scene - where are you ? -
Even if the passengers are all dispersed? Goodness, the op is never ending like that.Originally posted by Gedanken:Uhh, nope - regardless of whether you're armed or not, you're assumed to be a tango until it's proven that you were a hostage.
The threat to the CTs is secondary to the safety of the hostages - isn't that the raison d'etre of CT teams? As long as there's a threat to the hostage, things are treated with all possible seriousness.
But then in 117, there wasn't any real threat to the passengers. Even the shield was snatched away. -
Did I comment on SOF professionalism?Originally posted by storywolf:Well are you inside the plane ? Then how can you comment on SOF professional and the terrorist professional or not ? You ownself just slapped your own face brother !
Where you there to take one look at the explosive and tell that it is not real ?
Where can you tell that it is not ignited by push of button type ?
A good question, while we are securing the perimeters at the scene - where are you ?
Were the terrorists professional? I don't think so .. they sealed their own fates with their dumbness. Can't even grab his shield tightly .. he never eat supper issit?
Whether explosives look real or not is a moot point right? Why is this brought up in the discussion at all?
I salute you for your work in menolong, if you think you deserve more recognition. -
Icemoon if there is no real threat to the passengers then why did SAF mobilise all the standby units and the SOF ?Originally posted by Icemoon:Even if the passengers are all dispersed? Goodness, the op is never ending like that.
But then in 117, there wasn't any real threat to the passengers. Even the shield was snatched away.
If there is no real threat then they would call the "KFC" for fried chickens for everyone. -
Well that's the way it is, and it's a good reflection of how the reality of ops is not as clearly delineated as the theory. Mind you, Resaq was picked up by the Egyptian CT lads, NOT the Maltese cops, even when the hospital was technically in Maltese jurisdiction. That ought to tell you how fuzzy things can get in real life.Originally posted by Icemoon:Even if the passengers are all dispersed? Goodness, the op is never ending like that.
Well, when you're on the spot as a member of the CT team, you wouldn't have the luxury of time to make that judgement, would you?Originally posted by Icemoon:But then in 117, there wasn't any real threat to the passengers. Even the shield was snatched away. -
The reply before that was about a tango holding a hostage at *knife-point* after the CT stormed in - which did not even happen at all.Originally posted by storywolf:Icemoon if there is no real threat to the passengers then why did SAF mobilise all the standby units and the SOF ?
If there is no real threat then they would call the "KFC" for fried chickens for everyone.
Good one. I remember KFC sponsored the chickens during my NDP. -
I'll second storywolf's point here. Once the button has been pushed by some minister or other, the ground rules change. There's no space for threat assessment any more, and everything operates on the assumption of the highest possible threat.
That's why it made no difference if the tangos are holding an AK or a stick of butter. They crossed the line, took hostages and made threats, and the only prudent thing to do at that point was to assume the worst and prevent them from doing anything. To treat the situation as anything less than the worst possible scenario at that time would have been foolhardy, wouldn't it? -
Hey .. I learn something new today .. thanks. So what happened? The CT lads followed the ambulances to hospital?Originally posted by Gedanken:Well that's the way it is, and it's a good reflection of how the reality of ops is not as clearly delineated as the theory. Mind you, Resaq was picked up by the Egyptian CT lads, NOT the Maltese cops, even when the hospital was technically in Maltese jurisdiction. That ought to tell you how fuzzy things can get in real life.
Well, when you're on the spot as a member of the CT team, you wouldn't have the luxury of time to make that judgement, would you?
Yeah .. CT lads are not police negotiators after all. -
Anyway, going back to your original assertion in this thread:
The Garuda and EgyptAir incidents are proof that things can and do go wrong. In contrast, SOF did not shoot any friendlies, nor did they set the aircraft alight or let tangos slip out. As I've asserted before, they did everything they had to do correctly, and that is a good indicator of their ability from a technical point of view.Originally posted by Icemoon:the only argument we can put across is this - SQ 117 is not a good indicator of their ability, or inability. -
Apparently, after the smoke cleared, some of the hostages recognised Resaq and alerted the authorities - I'm not sure whether this report was lodged at the airport or the hospital - and the Egyptian CT lads went to the hospital to pick him up.Originally posted by Icemoon:Hey .. I learn something new today .. thanks. So what happened? The CT lads followed the ambulances to hospital?
Yeah .. CT lads are not police negotiators after all. -
From hindsight, it seems that the possibility of casualites is much reduced. So even if the SOF were below par, high chance the results will be the sme - 4 idiots dead.Originally posted by Gedanken:I'll second storywolf's point here. Once the button has been pushed by some minister or other, the ground rules change. There's no space for threat assessment any more, and everything operates on the assumption of the highest possible threat.
That's why it made no difference if the tangos are holding an AK or a stick of butter. They crossed the line, took hostages and made threats, and the only prudent thing to do at that point was to assume the worst and prevent them from doing anything. To treat the situation as anything less than the worst possible scenario at that time would have been foolhardy, wouldn't it?
That's why the op is not a good benchmark of their abilities or inabilities.
By the way, what explosives did the 4 idiots carry? -
Disagree. They could have set the aircraft alight like EgyptAir 648, killing passengers, or they could have shot friendlies like D81 did. The fact that they didn't do anything like that in itself demonstrates that they're not below par.Originally posted by Icemoon:From hindsight, it seems that the possibility of casualites is much reduced. So even if the SOF were below par, high chance the results will be the sme - 4 idiots dead. -
Isn't it SOP to assemble the non-casualties on the tarmac? How did Resaq slip out of the crowd?Originally posted by Gedanken:Apparently, after the smoke cleared, some of the hostages recognised Resaq and alerted the authorities - I'm not sure whether this report was lodged at the airport or the hospital - and the Egyptian CT lads went to the hospital to pick him up.
Or he was feigning injuries and they whisked him off into the ambulance, without joining the crowd? -
No, he was actually injured, and that's probably why he got shipped off without being fully checked out.Originally posted by Icemoon:Isn't it SOP to assemble the non-casualties on the tarmac? How did Resaq slip out of the crowd?
Or he was feigning injuries and they whisked him off into the ambulance, without joining the crowd? -
Well, you do have a point here. I missed the pre-storming part. I think opening cabin doors, as mundane as they seem, plays an important part and need special skills like during Marseilles.Originally posted by Gedanken:Disagree. They could have set the aircraft alight like EgyptAir 648, killing passengers, or they could have shot friendlies like D81 did. The fact that they didn't do anything like that in itself demonstrates that they're not below par.
To shoot friendlies is an unpardonable sin. I say they are below below par. -
You are right. This is a loophole. How do you clear someone who is injuried?Originally posted by Gedanken:No, he was actually injured, and that's probably why he got shipped off without being fully checked out. -
Yup. Look, what say you we reach a compromise? The circumstances of SQ117 are not enough to stamp SOF as being the best in the world. At the same time, having achieved 100% of their mission objectives, they have shown that they are perfectly capable of doing what is expected from a CT team which, as we have seen, is not something that can always be assumed. Fair enough?Originally posted by Icemoon:Well, you do have a point here. I missed the pre-storming part. I think opening cabin doors, as mundane as they seem, plays an important part and need special skills like during Marseilles.
To shoot friendlies is an unpardonable sin. I say they are below below par. -
Good question. Apart from ID checks and listening to the other passengers, I don't really know what the SOP for that is.Originally posted by Icemoon:You are right. This is a loophole. How do you clear someone who is injuried? -
It is uncanny perfect to me, that's why I refuse to see it as a good benchmark. It is either:Originally posted by Gedanken:Yup. Look, what say you we reach a compromise? The circumstances of SQ117 are not enough to stamp SOF as being the best in the world, but at the same time, having achieved 100% of their mission objectives, they have shown that they are perfectly capable of doing what is expected from a CT team. Fair enough?
1. we are really the best in the world
2. the mission was very much simplistic (planning, execution, enemy level).
Yea, at least they got their drills right and their skills are there. At least they could open the door without the plane catching fire.
As a sidenote, do you think the Indonesian president dare to sit inside the D81 killing house after their fiasco? -
Some more summarised information on Sq117 (based on Sumiko Tan’s Book) –
Shahid Hussain Soomro was in the cockpit continuing with the countdown when an Urdu speaking police negotiator spoke to him. This caused a distraction in which Fida Mohammad Khan Jaboon joined him. The hijackers thought that they have made contact with Pakistan.
Signal given – raid begins…….
Khan is eliminated first, followed by Shahid. (In the book, there is lots of over dramatised information) I assume Khan was standing at the door of the cockpit while Shalid was in the cockpit itself.
Third hijacker (I will quote the book) – “Hijacker Javed Akhtar Kayani was near the front of the plane, walking towards the cockpit. When he saw the commandos running in, he grabbed a woman passenger to shield himself from the masked men. But he was blown away within seconds, and the woman was freed.”
Sumiko TanÂ’s book made no mentioned of another passenger pulling her away.
Also from the book -
“Mohammad Yosaf Mughal was slightly further back in the aircraft. At the sight of the commandos. He fearfully threw his canister onto the floor. A commando scooped it up and, point-blank, finished off the hijacker.”
Canister in this case refers to the sticks of firecrackers (post-investigation), which the air steward reported earlier as appearing to be sticks of dynamite. -
I think as an Indonesian myself, the answer likely to be no. There is alsoOriginally posted by Icemoon:It is uncanny perfect to me, that's why I refuse to see it as a good benchmark. It is either:
1. we are really the best in the world
2. the mission was very much simplistic (planning, execution, enemy level).
Yea, at least they got their drills right and their skills are there. At least they could open the door without the plane catching fire.
As a sidenote, do you think the Indonesian president dare to sit inside the D81 killing house after their fiasco?
other counter terrorist unit in Indonesia from the Navy or Air Force. -
Nothing uncanny about it at all, Icemoon. While I was at 1 CDO, I had the chance to watch these guys train, and I can tell you that they don't muck about. Rest assured that we're up there with the best of them. Without going into too much detail, the current SOF commander topped the SF course in the US, beating even their local trainees to the top spot. This officer was one of several men in my NS company who went to SOF, and I can tell you firsthand that they are in fact that good.Originally posted by Icemoon:It is uncanny perfect to me, that's why I refuse to see it as a good benchmark. It is either:
1. we are really the best in the world
2. the mission was very much simplistic (planning, execution, enemy level).
Yea, at least they got their drills right and their skills are there. At least they could open the door without the plane catching fire.
As a sidenote, do you think the Indonesian president dare to sit inside the D81 killing house after their fiasco?
The truth, I suspect, is somewhere between the two options you have listed. In carrying out the mission, I don't see anything that the SAS, GSG9 or Delta could have done better, but on the other hand, the situation wasn't complicated by the terrorists possessing automatic weapons or remotely detonated explosives.
As an analogy, driving safely to the office and back doesn't automatically make you the world's best driver, but it doesn't rule you out either. It's just that the circumstances are inadequate to prove either conclusion. -
Opps .. I might be wrong then. If the CT took the shot with the hostage in front, then I cannot but say his skill is really good. After all, even snipers need to carefully aim before they take such a shot.Originally posted by bcoy:Third hijacker (I will quote the book) – “Hijacker Javed Akhtar Kayani was near the front of the plane, walking towards the cockpit. When he saw the commandos running in, he grabbed a woman passenger to shield himself from the masked men. But he was blown away within seconds, and the woman was freed.”
Sumiko TanÂ’s book made no mentioned of another passenger pulling her away.
Also from the book -
“Mohammad Yosaf Mughal was slightly further back in the aircraft. At the sight of the commandos. He fearfully threw his canister onto the floor. A commando scooped it up and, point-blank, finished off the hijacker.”
Canister in this case refers to the sticks of firecrackers (post-investigation), which the air steward reported earlier as appearing to be sticks of dynamite.
Fearfully threw his canister? Not light it up meh? Why did the commando scoop up the canister? -
Topped SF course .. was he featured in ST or Pioneer? Last time the papers featured this red beret topping the SF course also. These people featured will thank their wife or gf for giving them support blah blah .. hahaOriginally posted by Gedanken:Nothing uncanny about it at all, Icemoon. While I was at 1 CDO, I had the chance to watch these guys train, and I can tell you that they don't muck about. Rest assured that we're up there with the best of them. Without going into too much detail, the current SOF commander topped the SF course in the US, beating even their local trainees to the top spot. This officer was one of several men in my NS company who went to SOF, and I can tell you firsthand that they are in fact that good.
The truth, I suspect, is somewhere between the two options you have listed. In carrying out the mission, I don't see anything that the SAS, GSG9 or Delta could have done better, but on the other hand, the situation wasn't complicated by the terrorists possessing automatic weapons or remotely detonated explosives.
As an analogy, driving safely to the office and back doesn't automatically make you the world's best driver, but it doesn't rule you out either. It's just that the circumstances are inadequate to prove either conclusion.
Well, I am pretty sure our SOF are way better than D81 or the Egyptian one. In fact, Teo CH could have sit inside their killing house and come out in one piece.
The part in blue .. wasn't that my whole point?? -
Not quite. Like I said, given the situation, the best in the world would have done it the same way, and that's credit in itself, given that some other CT teams wouldn't.