Pride
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untill u serve then u tell us wat exactly what pride is
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Pride can only come about when people do the things they want to do.
NSF/"reservist" personnel are conscripts - drafted by the law.
When you are young and have lots of dreams and places that you want to be - it really sucks.
It is also well-known and quite human-nature to dislike something when there is compulsion.
I would think that some of the underlying reasons for failure to develop pride:
1. compulsion by law
2. Poor distribution of personnel to vocations - you get sent to whatever vocation, ie, no choice and usually little regards for skills and interests
3. Singapore administrative/government culture - quid pro quo attitudes towards its own citizens. If you have not completed NSF - you have to post bond $75 000 if you accompany your parents overseas or if you go to school outside of Singapore - you are treated like a potential criminal. This attitude cannot engender loyalty/patriotism. Besides, people have to decide for themselves where their own loyalties, values, cultures lie - and may not be in Singapore. Why compel people to be Singaporeans when they don't want to?
Anyway, we all pay taxes so that people who are legally in Singapore should be educated, cared for to the extent that they are productive, safe, functional members of a community. So what's up with asking back $75 000?!?
4. Loss of economic/educational advancement in the time-period of full-time NS.
To increase pride in service, I would suggest attitudinal framework changes that have to permeate through Singapore society:
1. Re-enact the National Service law: Amend the Constitution to include a Bill of Rights including a right to bear arms - manifested through satutory organs as the Armed Forces law. Improve education with regards to the issue of "citizen's only" right to bear arms - history has shown that in many countries where group(s) of people that have been excluded from participating in the military or of training in self-defence - they get bullied, massacred, placed in concentration camps. There is a pressing need to show why this is a citizen's right to do military training and bearing arms. You will get pride.
2. First generation citizens also have to perform NS be it military for age-eligible or SCDF or other community service corps for those who are not fit for military duties. The only pathyway to citizenship is through NS.
3. Introduce a National Security Tax, say 1% on all income tax for all tax-residents in Singapore. Use the income to re-distribute to active/reservist NS personnel. This does not equal the efforts or sacrifice of NS man but goes a long way to compensate them in a more tangible way. I think if NSF were being paid $1000 to $2000 per month after undergoing basic or vocational training, they will have more pride. Also it will also inculcate a culture of working for income and independence. It will feedback into the economy. For too long our youg people stay close to their parents and do not have a gung-ho, do it yourself attitude. If you can pay young people adequately - they can then also move out, share an apartment with friends etc. Singapore will be the better for it I think. Singapore has too much on a rely on government/parents thingy.
What do you guys think? -
All I know is that PRIDE stands for PRoductivity & Innovation in Daily Effort. I got Gold Award ok for it... hahah
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I love my job, but the system has left a bad taste in my mouth
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I think I know what you mean bro .... but I think it's the people that makes it so .... not the system eh ...Originally posted by Hellraiza:I love my job, but the system has left a bad taste in my mouth
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P - people
R- resting
I - i
D - do
E - extra -
in the end, its all about mindset. Happy or sad, willing or unwilling, 2 years still must L.L serve. So might as well have a positive mindset, so that u have 2 years of memorable service.
Anyway, next time u go out and work, also kenna all the shit work, u also kenna arrow by boss, just that its in a dfferent environment, and u don't need 2 go chiong mountain. Not much difference really -
i have so much pride in NS. but after that....now im NSmen...no more pride already.... its such a hassle to be back for reservist...and more and more ippt and outfield....
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the "people" ur talking about also constitute part of the system what. These are those who are more machine than men, much like the human "batteries" in the MatrixOriginally posted by Fatum:I think I know what you mean bro .... but I think it's the people that makes it so .... not the system eh ... -
1. The point is there should be enough blanks so that we never have to shout bang bang bang. Let's say, for example, full load is 6x 30 rounds. The minimum amount of blanks per person should be that amount. Where the exercise involves more missions, then the number of blanks should increase. I have NEVER been issued with 6 x 30 blanks. wtf? No money? Fire some generals then you will have plenty of money.Originally posted by Icemoon:looking at it from an objective point of view,
1. isn't shouting bang bang bang to indicate your position when you ran out of blanks? unless you have better ways to do that?
2. why run at 0730-0800. if you agree that running is important to maintain fitness, then please suggest a good time for running. 1200 with the sun above your head?
3. I suppose the shout and sing is for cadence and keeping your spirits high, though personally I think it is quite wayang. It is SUPER WAYANG when army boys sing along east coast park!
2. The problem is the notion that you must run at 0730 - 0800. When there are so many people coming into camp. Why not 0700? Why not 0900? Logically, we should avoid running at 0730 - 0800 precisely because everyone arrives at work at the time. All the cars moving about cannot be good for health/safety. The logical concluision then, is that it must be a wayang exercise. -
yah...i personally feel the morning runs are quite wayang also. But the weather during that time is just nice also, quite cool. I'd rather run at that time than in the evenings, where everyone just wants to go home. And no matter what the timing, running keeps us fit!
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seriously its better for them to give you a crap ans then fill your mind with wonderful thoughts about the saf.
PRIDE is not relevant to majority of the sai kang warriors in the saf. we get shit pay to do even more shitty work. in what way does one contribute to the defence of the nation by sweeping up leaves by the road, or plucking weeds from the ground?
when you enter the army, THEN you will know. -
So you guys are telling me that it boils down to $$ and Cents? Then damn it...if there's any conflict, I don't have to risk casualties. All I have to do is to get some money and distribute them amongst the troops in the SAF and that's it. They will just dump their arms.
And also, stop harping on the issue that I do not noe since I have not served. The thing is, if you have this attitude for 2yrs while u are serving, and u start working in society, are you saying that as long as you did your work and you get your monthly pay, that's the end of your responsibility? What I'm really concerned with is, if you wanna do something, put ur heart to it, make it a good one. If not DON'T BOTHER!!! Its the work attitude and the effort that one puts in. And you harp that the 2 friggin years of your time is waste? Tink about this, if during this 2years of service, never for a single moment have you felt proud for what you have done in contributing to the Nation for your 2years? No matter what vocation, storeman, clerk or whatever, its essential that you carry out your task and accomplish them with PRIDE. -
I have to agree on the last bit of your first point .... it's obscene the amount of waste that goes on in the SAF ... and I'm not talking about things like the wayang at the cook houses every day ..... have you seen the catering at some functions for senior brass ? ... after major CPXs ? ..... why the hell the brass have to drink wine to celebrate end of exercise I have no idea ... but that certainly left a bad taste in my mouth ... brass get to drink wine, and grunts get to shout "bang bang bang" during field ex, and get squeezed for donations from their monthly pittance so some crabs get to look good to the stars .....Originally posted by lwflee:1. The point is there should be enough blanks so that we never have to shout bang bang bang. Let's say, for example, full load is 6x 30 rounds. The minimum amount of blanks per person should be that amount. Where the exercise involves more missions, then the number of blanks should increase. I have NEVER been issued with 6 x 30 blanks. wtf? No money? Fire some generals then you will have plenty of money.
2. The problem is the notion that you must run at 0730 - 0800. When there are so many people coming into camp. Why not 0700? Why not 0900? Logically, we should avoid running at 0730 - 0800 precisely because everyone arrives at work at the time. All the cars moving about cannot be good for health/safety. The logical concluision then, is that it must be a wayang exercise.
nice ...... -
SpecOps - don't get so worked up .....Originally posted by SpecOps87:So you guys are telling me that it boils down to $$ and Cents? Then damn it...if there's any conflict, I don't have to risk casualties. All I have to do is to get some money and distribute them amongst the troops in the SAF and that's it. They will just dump their arms.
And also, stop harping on the issue that I do not noe since I have not served. The thing is, if you have this attitude for 2yrs while u are serving, and u start working in society, are you saying that as long as you did your work and you get your monthly pay, that's the end of your responsibility? What I'm really concerned with is, if you wanna do something, put ur heart to it, make it a good one. If not DON'T BOTHER!!! Its the work attitude and the effort that one puts in. And you harp that the 2 friggin years of your time is waste? Tink about this, if during this 2years of service, never for a single moment have you felt proud for what you have done in contributing to the Nation for your 2years? No matter what vocation, storeman, clerk or whatever, its essential that you carry out your task and accomplish them with PRIDE.
Of course one should do one's work with pride - but failing to analyze the reasons why some do not is important to address their concerns, failings, inadequate education etc.
While self-defence cannot be equated in dollars and cents, it is the underlying current in Singaporean society that puts a drag on service ... ... They serve the Nation but feel or perceive that someone else is getting the benefits. ... ... read immigrants/aliens, foreign talents.
One way to reduce this perception is to increase differences between aliens/FTs/potential immigrants and citizens through different ways (many different ways).
Singaporeans feel cheated in their own country because everything in relation to State is quid pro quo ... ... so if anything is State compelled, you rebel -- that's why no pride.
Most Singaporeans with large relations in Singapore will fight to the bitter end (they won't do it for the State but they will do it for themselves and their families) ... .... and if you give them 30 acres and 2 SUVs they will be at the Southern border of Thailand by sundown for the camp fire BBQ (appropriate incentives - look at the the history of the British Empire, early US history on how they paid soldiers in the absence of real money).
It is human psychology - you will have more pride if you choose to do it. In the service instead of assigning - put up vocations for listing and people will match by performance in BMT, much like school. And if all are not their ideal vocations - they will have to pick their own poisons and live with it.
You cannot just say do your work and do it with pride - because this is enforced labour. Slaves don't really do their work with pride.
You started a thread to discuss about pride during NS and I listed what are some reasons, both societal and individual that may impact on Pride. -
lets put it this way. before i was enlisted, i have had the desire to sign on with the army. i thought of it as an enriching career, where i will be rewarded based on my skills and abilities. of course, i did much research about it, and was this close to signing a contract before i enlisted. everyone i knew told me not to sign on, or at least wait till i am in the army before i consider.
HELL AM I GLAD I LISTENED TO THEM.
to me, the saf is just a show. as nsfs, we are the extras who are forced by law to act in it. we have no say, no choice, we are but puppets. don't serve if we are not proud of it? hello, like we have a choice? we are forced to donate $12 for some charity. forced to be a contributor for some other charity. shouldnt such things be on one's free will?
everything we do, its for the benefit of the next chain of command so that he can impress his superior or some other big shit, and hopefully get a pay raise or promotion.
we are but pawns.
sincerely from a once garang ncc cadet who thought serving the nation, sword of honour, saluting the flag and taking part in parades was honourable. -
Didnt you read the earlier post on people not getting the vocation they want? So why should they bother doing something they dont want to do? Its like being forced to eat shit. You dont like that and you wouldnt want to be forced into doing it right?Originally posted by SpecOps87:So you guys are telling me that it boils down to $$ and Cents? Then damn it...if there's any conflict, I don't have to risk casualties. All I have to do is to get some money and distribute them amongst the troops in the SAF and that's it. They will just dump their arms.
And also, stop harping on the issue that I do not noe since I have not served. The thing is, if you have this attitude for 2yrs while u are serving, and u start working in society, are you saying that as long as you did your work and you get your monthly pay, that's the end of your responsibility? What I'm really concerned with is, if you wanna do something, put ur heart to it, make it a good one. If not DON'T BOTHER!!! Its the work attitude and the effort that one puts in. And you harp that the 2 friggin years of your time is waste? Tink about this, if during this 2years of service, never for a single moment have you felt proud for what you have done in contributing to the Nation for your 2years? No matter what vocation, storeman, clerk or whatever, its essential that you carry out your task and accomplish them with PRIDE. -
This is bullshit logic, I'm afraid.Originally posted by SpecOps87:If you wanna complain that 400 is little, it is. But you have to look at it that it is afterall an allowance. Those indonesian maids work here for 2-3yrs, get 240 a mth, kena abuse, eat grass and all that...does the SAF do that to you? Why don't u guys think of it this way, what is the price of freedom? What is the price of having to be ready 24/7 a year?
Indonesian maids get 240 a month (let's say, I dunno the exact amount), but this is considered a lot in their home country! We get 400 a month - this is shit in Singapore.
Furthermore, do you hear of employers scolding their maids KNN CCB? Do the maids knock it down? Do the maids sign 21 extras? SOL? Guard Duty?
I think if you SOL them, MOM will come and find you.
In fact, if the family goes on holiday, it is customary to bring the maid along. It is not unusual to bring the maid along when the family goes to high class eateries like restaurants. -
1. Do they issue us with so many magazines in the first place? I remember having dummy mags and grenades.Originally posted by lwflee:1. The point is there should be enough blanks so that we never have to shout bang bang bang. Let's say, for example, full load is 6x 30 rounds. The minimum amount of blanks per person should be that amount. Where the exercise involves more missions, then the number of blanks should increase. I have NEVER been issued with 6 x 30 blanks. wtf? No money? Fire some generals then you will have plenty of money.
2. The problem is the notion that you must run at 0730 - 0800. When there are so many people coming into camp. Why not 0700? Why not 0900? Logically, we should avoid running at 0730 - 0800 precisely because everyone arrives at work at the time. All the cars moving about cannot be good for health/safety. The logical concluision then, is that it must be a wayang exercise.
2. 0700 means the 5BX must start at 0645, which means fall in water parade at 0630. Factor in area cleaning and drawing arms and breakfast, I suppose revellie becomes 0515.
Do you run near the main roads? I spent most of my NSF in a battalion camp, so I don't see a lot of cars. Even in Pasir Laba, we run near the BCTC/SOC area, so don't get to meet the main crowd. Definitely not the BG of Pasir Laba. -
I think you are living in a utopian society.Originally posted by SpecOps87:And also, stop harping on the issue that I do not noe since I have not served. The thing is, if you have this attitude for 2yrs while u are serving, and u start working in society, are you saying that as long as you did your work and you get your monthly pay, that's the end of your responsibility? What I'm really concerned with is, if you wanna do something, put ur heart to it, make it a good one. If not DON'T BOTHER!!! Its the work attitude and the effort that one puts in. And you harp that the 2 friggin years of your time is waste? Tink about this, if during this 2years of service, never for a single moment have you felt proud for what you have done in contributing to the Nation for your 2years? No matter what vocation, storeman, clerk or whatever, its essential that you carry out your task and accomplish them with PRIDE.
In the working world, many people don't get to do the things they want to do. But they still do it. Like the service industry people, you scold them but they still have to put on a smile. This is professionalism.
SAF teaches us to "do it once, do it good, serve and fark off". The pride doesn't matter. You don't have to like what you are doing, really. -
well i am new here and i wouldnt want to piss ppl off.. i serve NS for 2 1/2 years as infantry SC . it sucks by the way, got whacked in BMT, crawled till my elbows bleed, officers blame me for my unperforming men.Originally posted by SpecOps87:So you guys are telling me that it boils down to $$ and Cents? Then damn it...if there's any conflict, I don't have to risk casualties. All I have to do is to get some money and distribute them amongst the troops in the SAF and that's it. They will just dump their arms.
And also, stop harping on the issue that I do not noe since I have not served. The thing is, if you have this attitude for 2yrs while u are serving, and u start working in society, are you saying that as long as you did your work and you get your monthly pay, that's the end of your responsibility? What I'm really concerned with is, if you wanna do something, put ur heart to it, make it a good one. If not DON'T BOTHER!!! Its the work attitude and the effort that one puts in. And you harp that the 2 friggin years of your time is waste? Tink about this, if during this 2years of service, never for a single moment have you felt proud for what you have done in contributing to the Nation for your 2years? No matter what vocation, storeman, clerk or whatever, its essential that you carry out your task and accomplish them with PRIDE.
i complained all the time so did my fellow specs. but we did not shirk our responsibility. we just did it.. who the hell would like to charge Bajau or E-shape knoll on a Saturday when the others rest at home... who would want to walk up and down 7 sister knoll and climb Mt Biang in Brunei, and who the hell want to be freezing up in Taiwan or where ever the army decide to train us. the bottom line is you dont have to like it, you just do it. the majority of the army will bitch and whine. from commando to clerk. but i dun think most of us will desert our post just because i have a fcuked up superior or i burnt my weekend previously. i understand you havent enlisted yet. when you enlist you will see a side of the Military that the posters or the open house or 3G commercial wont show you. -
well said. every vocation has its pro's and con's. But true indeed. No matter how slack, fcuk up, or just tiring a vocation is....one should never abandon their job scope. everyone has its role to play. and i think that is the greatest pride one could ever have. To be in charge of one's own responsibilities in the SAF....Originally posted by Prince_Valiant:well i am new here and i wouldnt want to piss ppl off.. i serve NS for 2 1/2 years as infantry SC . it sucks by the way, got whacked in BMT, crawled till my elbows bleed, officers blame me for my unperforming men.
i complained all the time so did my fellow specs. but we did not shirk our responsibility. we just did it.. who the hell would like to charge Bajau or E-shape knoll on a Saturday when the others rest at home... who would want to walk up and down 7 sister knoll and climb Mt Biang in Brunei, and who the hell want to be freezing up in Taiwan or where ever the army decide to train us. the bottom line is you dont have to like it, you just do it. the majority of the army will bitch and whine. from commando to clerk. but i dun think most of us will desert our post just because i have a fcuked up superior or i burnt my weekend previously. i understand you havent enlisted yet. when you enlist you will see a side of the Military that the posters or the open house or 3G commercial wont show you. -
Er since you are so on, i suggest you sign on as regular lor. Why don't you? And if got no pride and no faith, then why dun u think about WHY there is no pride and no faith? Remember, alot of NSF are in the army not because they WANT to, but because they HAVE to.Originally posted by SpecOps87:I do not have a maid in the first place. And also, its stupid for me to employ a maid to serve NS on my behalf. I mean hell...when you guys who have served or are serving bitch about being in there, low pay and all that, and you see those wise ass who doesn't have to serve, you complain. What for? Cuz u want them to suffer what you didn't like in the 1st place?Its plain childish, to be frank it would actually be bad to have those highly motivated ones and those who take pride in their work to be downplayed by the few who have no pride nor faith in the system which has kept us safe for the past 40yrs and 9mths! -
And yes, i totally agree that many do not want to, and they are serving as they have to. But don't you think its pretty selfish to think that way? The least that can be done is to change their mindset. And yes, this is the military, not some democratic organization, but the thing is, I've seen and heard of people who when tasked with completing an assignment, unless it has some benefits to them, they will have this mentality of "U ask me do, I got do better then never do" sorta mentality. I once spoke to this 3SG from 6SIR, about his duties. Yes, he had great understanding and all, but guess what he said? There are times when it gets totally boring, he justs go off to a corner and nap or chat on the phone while he is supposed to be manning the station. And personally, being in the NCC as a CLT, on certain nights as I rove to ensure the cadets are asleep, I've seen prowlers hiding below the stairwells to smoke and chat. How responsible and how much pride do they have? What if something cocks up?Originally posted by nightsky87:Er since you are so on, i suggest you sign on as regular lor. Why don't you? And if got no pride and no faith, then why dun u think about WHY there is no pride and no faith? Remember, alot of NSF are in the army not because they WANT to, but because they HAVE to. -
Little boyOriginally posted by SpecOps87:So you guys are telling me that it boils down to $$ and Cents? Then damn it...if there's any conflict, I don't have to risk casualties. All I have to do is to get some money and distribute them amongst the troops in the SAF and that's it. They will just dump their arms.
And also, stop harping on the issue that I do not noe since I have not served. The thing is, if you have this attitude for 2yrs while u are serving, and u start working in society, are you saying that as long as you did your work and you get your monthly pay, that's the end of your responsibility? What I'm really concerned with is, if you wanna do something, put ur heart to it, make it a good one. If not DON'T BOTHER!!! Its the work attitude and the effort that one puts in. And you harp that the 2 friggin years of your time is waste? Tink about this, if during this 2years of service, never for a single moment have you felt proud for what you have done in contributing to the Nation for your 2years? No matter what vocation, storeman, clerk or whatever, its essential that you carry out your task and accomplish them with PRIDE.
i used to have a friend liked u
he trained hard b4 he got enlisted, jogged, do push up on his own
he told me he is proud hes gonna serve the country soon, n tell me exactly the same thing u told me, he call me foolish when i tell him the bad things of ns
b4 he got enlisted, his nick was "duty n honour to the country"
his first bookout from tekong, his nick became "slave of the nation"
subsequently u see " the hungry nsf"
he surf this forum also, lets see whetrher he will start his crap when he sees this
anyway u may think patriotism cannot be compared by monetary means, but our country is rich, living standards are high, even as clerk position or any service side, u may not siong physically, but u still do have job to do, n u have punishments if u screw up, lemme tell u how u feel, when ur supervisor/ic is doing nothing collecting few k a mth n squeeze u cheap labour high n dry
u will soon realise, u r serving ur IC and not ur country
u r a stepping stone for regulars to climb
u r a expendable source of manpower and ever replenishing
no need to argue so much here, until u have SERVED and GONE THRU all the shiat we been thru
get back ur pink IC after 2 yrs n shout ORD
dont tell me how good NS is