Anyone been to DB before?
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the actual DB is actually further inside, with at least 2 parameters of fence. they will put them in holding cell at mowbray camp, then just before dinner send those admitting for that day into the DB.Originally posted by Kyoy:Escorted one of my awol guys there some time back.
When the detainee, the MP and i were in that "urine testing room" in Mowbray camp doing the handing and taking over form, i happened to glance at something like the "RO" of what a day in DB is like for the detainees i was quite
. I always thought they just sit around all day in the cell zuo bo lan. Didn't expect there was an actual routine order they must follow for an entire day with so much stuff.
when releasing, the exit is at the back door of the main DB building, with a guard at that special gate, where, i believe, staffs could book out directly as well.
DB is not too remote actually. it can be seen from some HDB blocks nearby. but the two buildings have practically no windows so you cannot see anything inside, just like any prison. hence it is very dark inside, where sunlight barely comes in.
CD's, in for minor offences, are housed in a seperate annex building with more sunlight. CA and SUS in the main building, where u go for medical and collect equipments.
only CD are drilled in sandbag regime. CA and SUS hardly gets to come out that it can get very distressing.
the diet is supposed to be low in energy, so that you only have wat u need for the day. tat said, CD's get better meals but have to do regime. CA and SUS eat porridge.
and the sandbag regime thingy, nowadays is new army, so they won't have to torture u until u report to MO. nowadays they have to adhere to a time period. regimes are only done once everyday on monday to fridays, if morning will be 3 hours, afternoon will be 1 hour, no regime and no make-up in event of bad weather.
there are a lot more. who else have been to DB recently, please own up.
i see if anyone can recognise these stuff:
1. yellow lines and numbering off
2. the MO drill and roll call/strip cell
3. Jenovah's Witnesses in DB
4. each cell may have 1, 3, 4 or 5 inmates but never 2. -
i can only share thus far cos if i tell u everything there are bound to be some restricted info already, even though it wun go to confidential or top secret.Originally posted by monoslayer:oic.. care to share wif us wats ur routine inside?
basically reville before 6am, brush teeth+breakfast, 7am for those to report sick, 8am for regime till 11am, lunch before noon, afternoon regime is 3pm to 4pm, 4.30pm early dinner (yes), 5pm area cleaning+bathe+brush teeth+shave, 7.30pm stand there with mats+blanket+equipments (no pillows) and prepare for standby cell/roll call (has a specific routine, never do probably kena punished), lights out timing not fixed but 10pm plus minus.
if there are no regimes or i never put down, those times is OTOT. u can lie down on the hard floor and sleep, talk but not loudly, but dun try to be funny or do things like pcc.
timings are not impt inside since u have nothing with u, not even ur watch. nothing sharp allowed, all shaving equipment are returned after the bathing time, no specs also. if u have special medicine, they will be issued to u on a daily basis during evening bathing time.
all personal equipments are stacked inside gaps between the 'pillars' high up, towel on a hanging clip on the wall near basin/toilet area, everything else that has to be passed to you from outside (meals, toothbrush, shaver) can be done through the gaps. -
got specs leh. the detainee i interviewed last time got wear. big plastic ones
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special case for 1k+. even that there is no guarantee. an ex-detainee wil testify for that.Originally posted by saline:got specs leh. the detainee i interviewed last time got wear. big plastic ones -
than how to see? use plastic glasses can?
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no. u can try to appeal, but it's practically impossible. i'm having 400 plus, also like tat, have to adjust a bit. there are no one inside that wear specs. why they wan to make ur job of escaping easier, unless it's so bad u can't make ur way around.Originally posted by saline:than how to see? use plastic glasses can?
we dun wear underwear inside our shorts also.
the boots for regime are kept in a training shed outside, without insoles and socks also.
shoe laces and belts are returned to ur escort earlier at mowbray side. ur number 4 is kept in the main building in a room called process room, where they issue ur personal equipments as well.
try losing or breaking any personal equipment (dun drop the newer water bottles, the cap can break into two!) and you will get it. but i dunno wat will happen cos no one kena yet. i actually dropped mine inside the process room and the cap really broke, but the sgt just say, never mind, give me another one say dun drop again. -
There was 1 detainee who killed himself whith blanket back then in the 90s. He actuallly hanged himself with the blanket tied to the gril. From what was gathered he was a reservist. He must be damn determined to die. Actually i think there is a rule not allowing a detainee alone in one cell. Can anyone confirm?
Also there was a hunger strike during the 90s, and also a mutiny. They sent i the S.P.E.A.R team for the mutiny. -
Originally posted by oxford mushroom:
Nice reply ... thought I would just throw in questions so more will think deeper into our actions.
Decline the order to do what? Refuse to examine a detainee who collapsed during training?
The doctor does not administer the punishment, just as the prison doctor is not required to execute any prisoners on death row. There is no moral issue and indeed we have an obligation to treat prisoners, say, following caning or any other punishments. For death sentences, the prison MO certifies death. He cannot and is not expected to execute anyone.
In the US, there is an issue with their dealth sentence by lethal injection, because the doctor sets the drip for the lethal coc_ktail.
So in summary, the MO cannot refuse a legal order to attend to a prisoner who collapsed during punsihment. As for certifying someone fit for those snadbag marches, haven't you done FFI for detainees bound for DB?
When you are young you do what you are told ... which sometimes in quiet introspection, often later in life, you wonder if you had done the right thing or implicitly condone some action that perhaps is wrong or morally reprehensible.
Anyway, FFI for detainees bound for DB:
If DB punishment is physical and corporal in nature, is it to cause human suffering? Is this "cruel" and perhaps "unusual" punishment.
Of course these are defined by the community-at-large, so it probably varies in different parts of the world.
But I must say, I am a little uncomfortable in certifying people fit for DB, ie fit to be "cruelly" punished?
So one of the other issue if this is indeed true, are physicians who participate in process regardless of where in the entire process complicit by association?
I don't think the US is the model of virtue but the Constitution does express ideals ... think Guantanomo Bay.
Also, there is one law for US citizens and another for others.
Fortunately, Singapore tends to apply the law equally, although we did have a great Singapore sale ... reduced 6 strokes to 4 was it not? -
indeed, 1-man cell is rare (except in isolation or holding cells), but it is allowed for in special/tight conditions. the 1-men cell thing is not the point here actually, the thing is no 2 inmates be allowed in a cell.Originally posted by GermKiller:There was 1 detainee who killed himself whith blanket back then in the 90s. He actuallly hanged himself with the blanket tied to the gril. From what was gathered he was a reservist. He must be damn determined to die. Actually i think there is a rule not allowing a detainee alone in one cell. Can anyone confirm?
Also there was a hunger strike during the 90s, and also a mutiny. They sent i the S.P.E.A.R team for the mutiny.
for exmaple, if u had 3 cells and 4 men, without close supervision, it must be 1-3-0, and not 2-2-0 or 2-1-1. -
This brings to mind certain issues I've pondered upon too.Originally posted by Dogtor:Nice reply ... thought I would just throw in questions so more will think deeper into our actions.
When you are young you do what you are told ... which sometimes in quiet introspection, often later in life, you wonder if you had done the right thing or implicitly condone some action that perhaps is wrong or morally reprehensible.
Anyway, FFI for detainees bound for DB:
If DB punishment is physical and corporal in nature, is it to cause human suffering? Is this "cruel" and perhaps "unusual" punishment.
Of course these are defined by the community-at-large, so it probably varies in different parts of the world.
But I must say, I am a little uncomfortable in certifying people fit for DB, ie fit to be "cruelly" punished?
So one of the other issue if this is indeed true, are physicians who participate in process regardless of where in the entire process complicit by association?
I don't think the US is the model of virtue but the Constitution does express ideals ... think Guantanomo Bay.
Also, there is one law for US citizens and another for others.
Fortunately, Singapore tends to apply the law equally, although we did have a great Singapore sale ... reduced 6 strokes to 4 was it not?
The dilemma of a NSF MO who is caught between giving a patient the benefit of the doubt, as practised by doctors who faithfully apply the oath to serve, and to serve the manning requirement of the unit which they are in.
Can the dilemma of disobeying the chain of command be something easily solved when the CO is implicitly demanding a lower sick rate for the sake of Redcon or BCU awards competition.
I'm sure I'm not alone when I say that the KPI for Medical Centers are closely monitored by Ops Branch and this does place our NSF MOs in a bind, because they may feel that they cannot be effective doctors if they are sort of facing a silent pressure to be more stringent on treatment and may miss out some problems that the servicemen may have. -
I think it is better for NSF MP especially those posted to DB to be given annual counselling.
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it can be pretty stressful and depressing; i guess...oh btw, do the Jehovah witnesses inside DB get to book out or confined there for the next 2-3 yrs of their lives? just curious...
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If don't want to go DB then don't go serve NS...
I think serve NS then go DB somemore is really sad... Force you do something against your will then when you make a mistake punish you with all that they got...
Lucky now is much easier to skip NS, after all Singapore passport worth what now? Can play violin can le. Got money also can.
I know of a guy who had gone into DB. He was such a nice guy and I met him as part of the NDP celebrations. Wonder what he think during that NDP after they throw him in. -
What offence he commited if u can tell us?Originally posted by jianfish9:If don't want to go DB then don't go serve NS...
I think serve NS then go DB somemore is really sad... Force you do something against your will then when you make a mistake punish you with all that they got...
Lucky now is much easier to skip NS, after all Singapore passport worth what now? Can play violin can le. Got money also can.
I know of a guy who had gone into DB. He was such a nice guy and I met him as part of the NDP celebrations. Wonder what he think during that NDP after they throw him in.
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CP or LCK?Originally posted by jianfish9:If don't want to go DB then don't go serve NS...
I think serve NS then go DB somemore is really sad... Force you do something against your will then when you make a mistake punish you with all that they got...
Lucky now is much easier to skip NS, after all Singapore passport worth what now? Can play violin can le. Got money also can.
I know of a guy who had gone into DB. He was such a nice guy and I met him as part of the NDP celebrations. Wonder what he think during that NDP after they throw him in. -
Well most of the info tamago gave has been outdated...
Detainees get to wear specs... only black plastics ones are allowed. First-timers in DB are drilled in PT drills that will deter them from coming DB again... Old timers goes through counselling and rehabiltation. Its a "carrot & stick" approach now, instead of tekaning and mental torture....
DB was featured in a news report in the past in Channel i news... It is a place where detainees are being transformed to become disciplined soldiers... Too much misunderstanding in the eyes of the public.... -
That is why the army insists on using NSFs as MOs instead of hiring GPs to provide medical care. The SAF will not have to disrupt NS for medical students in that case, a policy that has been criticized. Apart from the increased costs of such a policy, these GPs are not bound by the manning needs of the army. The only solution left is to make them sign on with the army as well, but there has been few takers.Originally posted by LazerLordz:This brings to mind certain issues I've pondered upon too.
The dilemma of a NSF MO who is caught between giving a patient the benefit of the doubt, as practised by doctors who faithfully apply the oath to serve, and to serve the manning requirement of the unit which they are in.
Can the dilemma of disobeying the chain of command be something easily solved when the CO is implicitly demanding a lower sick rate for the sake of Redcon or BCU awards competition.
I'm sure I'm not alone when I say that the KPI for Medical Centers are closely monitored by Ops Branch and this does place our NSF MOs in a bind, because they may feel that they cannot be effective doctors if they are sort of facing a silent pressure to be more stringent on treatment and may miss out some problems that the servicemen may have.
MOs are not required to 'obey' the CO is he wants a lower sick rate. In fact, any CO who makes such a demand can and will be reported to higher authorities. But the MO is also aware that a high sick rate just prior to a major exercise will place a greater burden on the other soldiers, lower manning numbers and a greater risk of service injuries.
Those who are sick need to be properly treated and given appropriate rest. But why should the report sick rate predictably rise before an exercise and drop to almost nil before public holidays? MOs are not daft. We know there are kengsters out there as well and they must not be allowed to succeed. Btw, we do have enough cards up our sleeves (especially for the lao jiao MOs) to catch the kengsters
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As you said, what constitutes cruel and unusual punishment varies according to the local context and every sovereign nation has the right to decide what sort of moral and ethical norms to adopt for itself. As you know, caning is very much part of the punishments meted out by our judicial process. Indeed, caning and other forms of corporal punishments are very much alive in our homes and many schools.Originally posted by Dogtor:Anyway, FFI for detainees bound for DB:
If DB punishment is physical and corporal in nature, is it to cause human suffering? Is this "cruel" and perhaps "unusual" punishment.
Of course these are defined by the community-at-large, so it probably varies in different parts of the world.
Singapore is not alone in allowing corporal punishments. The US practices a hypocritical policy of allowing some of the worst forms of physical punishments upon its prisoners by putting them in a no-man's land away from US jurisdiction in Cuba. The intelligence agencies in Israel are known to inflict painful physical punishments bordering on torture upon Palestinian terrorist suspects. Following 9/11, the US has also defended its practice of physical torture during interrogation of terrorist suspects under various euphemisms. The forced feeding of hunger strikers using intragastric intubation by medical staff has also been practised in Guantanamo Bay.
Finally, Singapore has not signed nor ratified the International Bill of Human Rights and of course not the European Convention for the prevention of torture and inhuman or degrading treatment or punishment. -
wah seh. less than a year so much changes...?Originally posted by kiddyduck:Well most of the info tamago gave has been outdated...
Detainees get to wear specs... only black plastics ones are allowed. First-timers in DB are drilled in PT drills that will deter them from coming DB again... Old timers goes through counselling and rehabiltation. Its a "carrot & stick" approach now, instead of tekaning and mental torture....
DB was featured in a news report in the past in Channel i news... It is a place where detainees are being transformed to become disciplined soldiers... Too much misunderstanding in the eyes of the public.... -
do the Jehovah witnesses inside DB get to book out or are they confined there for the next 2-3 yrs of their lives? btw, can you appeal a DB sentence even if it's just for 2-3 days? must you shave botak before you enter DB?
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Originally posted by oxford mushroom:
Agreed.
As you said, what constitutes cruel and unusual punishment varies according to the local context and every sovereign nation has the right to decide what sort of moral and ethical norms to adopt for itself. As you know, caning is very much part of the punishments meted out by our judicial process. Indeed, caning and other forms of corporal punishments are very much alive in our homes and many schools.
Singapore is not alone in allowing corporal punishments. The US practices a hypocritical policy of allowing some of the worst forms of physical punishments upon its prisoners by putting them in a no-man's land away from US jurisdiction in Cuba. The intelligence agencies in Israel are known to inflict painful physical punishments bordering on torture upon Palestinian terrorist suspects. Following 9/11, the US has also defended its practice of physical torture during interrogation of terrorist suspects under various euphemisms. The forced feeding of hunger strikers using intragastric intubation by medical staff has also been practised in Guantanamo Bay.
Finally, Singapore has not signed nor ratified the International Bill of Human Rights and of course not the European Convention for the prevention of torture and inhuman or degrading treatment or punishment.
1. Should we be a signatory? pros and cons?
2. Where does the physician stand (who does not condone such actions) with regards to statutory duties or judicial orders?
- what happens to the Ministry of Health M.O. (bonded) asked to serve in the prison service for such? should they feel it is unethical to participate in certifying prisoners for punishment?
- Are they at risk of judicial penalties for refusal, yet are bonded and thus unable to resign their office?
- What if this is an undesirable posting and junior docs have to do at least one undesirable posting (MOH directive)?
You are a wise mushroom. -
Originally posted by ^tamago^:
ur rank included??
shoe laces and belts are returned to ur escort earlier at mowbray side. ur number 4 is kept in the main building in a room called process room, where they issue ur personal equipments as well.
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Since Jehovah Witness refuse 2 do NS, or carry arms, i think most probably they stay there for the entire duration bah, and cannot book out. Otherwise, how fair is it to others who serve their NS?Originally posted by alien09:do the Jehovah witnesses inside DB get to book out or are they confined there for the next 2-3 yrs of their lives? btw, can you appeal a DB sentence even if it's just for 2-3 days? must you shave botak before you enter DB? -
i think they serve the entire duration plus a bit more right? obviously they are detainees...so not allowed to book out.Originally posted by nanren4ever:Since Jehovah Witness refuse 2 do NS, or carry arms, i think most probably they stay there for the entire duration bah, and cannot book out. Otherwise, how fair is it to others who serve their NS? -
yes. when u go in, ur rank is CD, CA or SUS. so u will be known as CD XXX to ur MO etc.Originally posted by monoslayer:ur rank included??
when u go MO, u must say u r CD wat, NRIC No., in for wat, for how long etc de. stand inside yellow box, MO wun touch u. and strip and do the 7-step drill when instructed, to show ur tongue and ur body parts to make sure no scars or anything like tat.