NS Rank Promotion: Why Reservist NS Units Refuse to for Men?
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I personally think we should review the way we vocation the soldiers into the various vocations. We should stop the "any how take, one size fits all" type of selection. This have serious caused many people from being misplaced into vocations inwhich they are not suitable for, either mentally or physically. i have read from the other military forums and have notice this interesing topic.
There was this guy from Finland, in which their country practices conscription, and their pool of professionals are reality similar to Singapore. He was from the Guards Jaeger brigade, which is like our Guards formation which is like a RDF fromation. He says that his unit selects soldiers from the reservist or soldiers whom have served for quite some time. The selection criteria is not mainly on physical strength but more on how mentally matured the individual is.......
I think this type of selection is better. I think we should get the CO personally down to BMTC to choose the ppls that are suitable for the vocation, not based on some lame PC interview or CMPB computer psycho-analysis system. Units should also choose peoples based not on how fit they are, but rather, how interested or committed he is in a particular vocation. Honestly speaking, I feel that some peoples are veri immature and mentally unfit for some vocation. -
beg to differ.Originally posted by insouciant:I think the current way of awarding ranks to soldiers today is wrong.
How often have we seen a bungling 2Lt or 3SG try to lead a platoon/section just because he is a "A" level or poly grad and thus "promoted" to that rank.
Then we also see super capabale LCPs who would probably make section commanders or better, because they have the common sense, qualities and leadership abilities that the men respect.
My unit also had a few "O" level grads who after army went on to do their degrees overseas or locally and became great success for themselves, establishing themselves as leaders of men.
I'm not knocking all the "A" level and poly grads. Many of you are success of your own right (you know who you are so you won't feel threaten by this). But the system right now is bad....
And really, how often do you see a LCP or private get promoted while in the reserves, despite the often stated "you can be promoted if you perform well during your NS training".
not all LCPs are up to the kind of leadership (specialist as in 3SG and above) that u are referring to. just like the saying that all that passed out from OCS may not make gd officers.
while having common sense, qualities of a leader and respect from men etc are important, it is equally important that the LCP want to aspire to become a Specialist instead of being a man in the coy.
some LCP are successful in the biz world upon ORD and in due time became market leaders are great for encouragement and so on but still Army is a very different organisation altogether. ask around ur LCP/CPL friends to see if they will want to become a Specialist if chance allow (again a 2nd time in the army) and most of them will most likely say they will not.
take for eg, my tank gunner, refused a promotion from CPL to OCS during his NSF days. y? bcos he prefers to be a gunner in the current unit and so on. not bcos he doesn't have all the oustanding qualities of a true leader but it is not in his desire to become an officer. period. i can tell u, he is one hell of a gd soldier, fren and comrade. and i have many men that are of that calibre.
as for the case in NSmen, my unit does promote LCP to CPLs and from CPL to 3SG etc etc where their vocation and rank promotion allow. there're many cases out there but its not heard of. recognition is indeed lacking but trust me, there are many more that will be coming up. -
i dun get it, wat does regulars got to do with scholars and OCS and being farked up? u ,my friend, is even more shallow den a puddle of waterOriginally posted by raymond_sianz:aiya if you white horse confirm go OCS one. They even give you chance even if you fail many times. This is not a myth this is a true FACT. Singapore as long as you are scholar means you are good. But there are really very good scholar and lousy ones. but i can only say lousy one got more. Regulars are fark up. They think we NSF are dirt. So we NSf must show them that we can do better outside and screwed them up when we see them next time.
Long LIve NSF. Down the the stupid regulars!!!! -
gents.. there is nv a right or wrong in anything..
for example.. if the co go down to the ground to choose the commanders, you are still basing on the judgement of one person..
even in the corporate world.. sometimes you have to trust the fellow you delegate to do the job..
no matter where, there are people who can polish people's boots all the way up..
there are times when people make wrong decisions..
even if no one can predict how successful one can be in the future..
cheers. -
Buddy, no one is saying that ALL LCPs should be promoted to 3SGs if you read the thread carefully. THAT would be pure stupidity.Originally posted by tiggersgd:beg to differ.
not all LCPs are up to the kind of leadership (specialist as in 3SG and above) that u are referring to. just like the saying that all that passed out from OCS may not make gd officers.
while having common sense, qualities of a leader and respect from men etc are important, it is equally important that the LCP want to aspire to become a Specialist instead of being a man in the coy.
some LCP are successful in the biz world upon ORD and in due time became market leaders are great for encouragement and so on but still Army is a very different organisation altogether. ask around ur LCP/CPL friends to see if they will want to become a Specialist if chance allow (again a 2nd time in the army) and most of them will most likely say they will not.
take for eg, my tank gunner, refused a promotion from CPL to OCS during his NSF days. y? bcos he prefers to be a gunner in the current unit and so on. not bcos he doesn't have all the oustanding qualities of a true leader but it is not in his desire to become an officer. period. i can tell u, he is one hell of a gd soldier, fren and comrade. and i have many men that are of that calibre.
as for the case in NSmen, my unit does promote LCP to CPLs and from CPL to 3SG etc etc where their vocation and rank promotion allow. there're many cases out there but its not heard of. recognition is indeed lacking but trust me, there are many more that will be coming up.
We're just saying that there is a issue with the process that promotes so many people to be 3SGs or above based on their education, when there are many people who would make better combat or technical leaders who might not have that "pre-requisite" A level or polytechnic certificate when they are conscripted.
I'm glad that your unit is good enough to recognize its men and promote them. The other issue raised here is not enough units do so.
Sure there are lots of people there who might not want to promoted to take on more responsibilities. But then how many guys if given a choice would willing do NS in the 1st place? We are talking about who would make better leaders for the sake of the military. Not about who wants to. -
it is unfair in the sense that during reservist, only sergeants and officers get promoted. CPLs aren't given a chance at all.
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first of all, the world is not fair wat.Originally posted by Gordonator:it is unfair in the sense that during reservist, only sergeants and officers get promoted. CPLs aren't given a chance at all.
anyway, a CPL is not trained in stuffs that a SGT is trained in.
for eg: topo, organic weapons, signals, military symbols, ops order, bla bla bla.
correct? -
Same goes for privates and LCPs.Originally posted by Gordonator:it is unfair in the sense that during reservist, only sergeants and officers get promoted. CPLs aren't given a chance at all. -
Please, most of us don't remember even haf the stuff by the time reservist rolls around. And even fewer of us put it into practice.Originally posted by saline:first of all, the world is not fair wat.
anyway, a CPL is not trained in stuffs that a SGT is trained in.
for eg: topo, organic weapons, signals, military symbols, ops order, bla bla bla.
correct?
Besides, a lot of it is common sense. Most of the men who served in the combat units as a combat soldier can pick it up. None of it was rocket science.
And again, I have seen LCPs who do a better job driving the section than some sect comds. -
it is only 2 years.
how do expect the army to sort out your individual capabilities in such a short time.
even in working life we see how screw-up management can be. many useless idiots are promoted to management.
in fact most managers are idiots!!! -
Ah yo...Originally posted by insouciant:I think the current way of awarding ranks to soldiers today is wrong.
How often have we seen a bungling 2Lt or 3SG try to lead a platoon/section just because he is a "A" level or poly grad and thus "promoted" to that rank.
Then we also see super capabale LCPs who would probably make section commanders or better, because they have the common sense, qualities and leadership abilities that the men respect.
My unit also had a few "O" level grads who after army went on to do their degrees overseas or locally and became great success for themselves, establishing themselves as leaders of men.
I'm not knocking all the "A" level and poly grads. Many of you are success of your own right (you know who you are so you won't feel threaten by this). But the system right now is bad....
And really, how often do you see a LCP or private get promoted while in the reserves, despite the often stated "you can be promoted if you perform well during your NS training".
You know our system is like this coz our beloved Mr Lee S . L. was a BG.
See how capable he is and you know why they have such a system.
But you know those going to BSLC and ASLC ppl for their sgt course is the most respected one! Coz the Warrant officer sure screw them!! but the trainer be it warrant officer or not in the OCS still give the cadet some respect as they will become officer soon mah...
agree? -
true. tell that to the Stars. the govt recognize "papers". i am sure u know that.Originally posted by insouciant:Please, most of us don't remember even haf the stuff by the time reservist rolls around. And even fewer of us put it into practice.
Besides, a lot of it is common sense. Most of the men who served in the combat units as a combat soldier can pick it up. None of it was rocket science.
And again, I have seen LCPs who do a better job driving the section than some sect comds.
everybody here have seen men who are more zhai than SGTs.
A level/ Dip confirm get CPL. do All of them deserve the CPL rank? some are better off as LCPs.
another prob it is how commanders are chosen.
i feel that the Cdo method of choosing commanders is pretty good. also i suggest bringing back the private first class rank back. -
i went tru BSLC (SISPEC) and OCC (OCS), tell u the truth, in OCS i was wacked the hardest.Originally posted by FlowerGrass:Ah yo...
You know our system is like this coz our beloved Mr Lee S . L. was a BG.
See how capable he is and you know why they have such a system.
But you know those going to BSLC and ASLC ppl for their sgt course is the most respected one! Coz the Warrant officer sure screw them!! but the trainer be it warrant officer or not in the OCS still give the cadet some respect as they will become officer soon mah...
agree? -
When in OCS, until the very last moment when the epaulette is on your shoulder, you'll still be screwed by every single spec as hard as anywhere else. Its quite simple, you aren't an officer until you are one.
Anyway the problem with LCPs being promoted to CPL/3SG is that they would need to be sent to BSLC/ASLC and that would seriously disrupt training. Thats what the Sect. 2IC position is for, to train good LCPs to take a junior leadership role. As for the lousy commanders, I have nothing to say cos I've seen many terrible ones but I have also seen good ones so I guess given the short time SAF has, it is doing all it possibly can to nurture NSF commanders. However the standard of most regulars are disappointing.
Another point to note: It would be hard for a non A leve/poly guy to be able to grasp AOP/Topo/Technical stuff on top of doing things like safety planning, RMP/RAWR, write out lesson plans and design exercises, conduct training and write admin instructions. Remember, there is a training/administrative side of army, not just the exercise/warfare side. -
You don't need to go through BSLC to become a CPL. Hence I don't see a problem promoting sect 21/cs to CPL.Originally posted by Eikei:Anyway the problem with LCPs being promoted to CPL/3SG is that they would need to be sent to BSLC/ASLC and that would seriously disrupt training. Thats what the Sect. 2IC position is for, to train good LCPs to take a junior leadership role. As for the lousy commanders, I have nothing to say cos I've seen many terrible ones but I have also seen good ones so I guess given the short time SAF has, it is doing all it possibly can to nurture NSF commanders. However the standard of most regulars are disappointing.
Another point to note: It would be hard for a non A leve/poly guy to be able to grasp AOP/Topo/Technical stuff on top of doing things like safety planning, RMP/RAWR, write out lesson plans and design exercises, conduct training and write admin instructions. Remember, there is a training/administrative side of army, not just the exercise/warfare side.
As for the safety planning, and all that.. a lot of O level grads can also do it. Heck, how many 3SG sect comds write lesson plans, design exercises etc. Even more so when in the reserves?
Lastly, there is a decent number of people who still get their university degrees, polytechnic diplomas after NS. Just because the didn't get their A levels of polytechnic diploma prior to entering NS means that they don't have smarts.
My whole point is that we need a better way of choosing who gets selected for appointments better than our current (stupid) system of basing it on education.
And we should look at actually rewarding LCPs, PFCs and PTEs who do well in the reservist, instead of giving lip service that we do. -
Most LCPs didn't want to be promoted during NS as they have to serve that extra few months. I suppose no harm during Reservist.
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Most units who did not promote NSmen to the next higher rank is because of all the paper work. There is a 5 years service medal for NSmen after 5 years of ICT, but how many of them got it? It is because the unit dun wish to handle all the paper work, so they pretend not to know about it. I know it is because my unit did promotion for 3/4 of my unit Nsmen to the next rank, plus the 5 year medal for those who can have it, during my NSF days. The paperwork that my work colleague who handle the promotion is a lot, cause you need to check if the Nsmen is eligible to be promoted, whats their grade for their last few ICT and have they pass their IPPT etc. So just think, if you are in a unit with few hundreds of NSmen, how much paperwork you need to handle.
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ur..just wanna add my own comments....not all NSmen (i mean those going back periodically for their in-camp training) are keen to get promoted. for those regulars in the force it would be a good idea to look into the grading system but for reservists we just wanna go back and serve our time that's all. its not that rewarding to get promoted as compared to a regualr in the force. thouh in times of a real war then its a different story. however there are reservists who are siao on during ICT and those that can lead and produces results usually gets promoted. others just go along with assigned duties and clear the training as 1 IcT.
a good start to look into promotions other than lookin into an individual's educational level.
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i prefer to be LCP (lan jiao peng) too.Originally posted by Eikei:Most LCPs didn't want to be promoted during NS as they have to serve that extra few months. I suppose no harm during Reservist. -
Originally posted by insouciant:
i understand that not ALL LCPs should be promoted. my bad in writing the word ALL.
Buddy, no one is saying that ALL LCPs should be promoted to 3SGs if you read the thread carefully. THAT would be pure stupidity.
We're just saying that there is a issue with the process that promotes so many people to be 3SGs or above based on their education, when there are many people who would make better combat or technical leaders who might not have that "pre-requisite" A level or polytechnic certificate when they are conscripted.
I'm glad that your unit is good enough to recognize its men and promote them. The other issue raised here is [b]not enough units do so.
Sure there are lots of people there who might not want to promoted to take on more responsibilities. But then how many guys if given a choice would willing do NS in the 1st place? We are talking about who would make better leaders for the sake of the military. Not about who wants to.[/b]
i also understand that Army has undergone changes where the process for promotion to a higher rank is rather "screwed". I am for one that has been left out of this promotion since the Army take education as a priority for promotion rather than capable field leaders/commanders. then again, its all abt pressing buttons n more buttons this present day, isn't it? thus, we can see really good people in terms of leadership and so on being side-tracked for promotion.
and in the first place who suggested education to be a better criteria in promotion in the Army? we've those "crabs" n seafood chain on top...
if u are talking abt who will make better leaders for the sake of the military and not abt who wants to then its pretty ironical for ur statement. this is because, if there is a desire/want to, they will make better leaders, be it natural leaders or through much training.
and for me, i'd say for those who wants to be leaders in the Army, they will want to and have the desire to. and let's also bear in mind that politics/boot-licking are much more wayang in the Army in order to attain a promotion. no offense to any regulars here. -
Like others, I've seen first hand, the ability of privates and lance corporals leading sections during exercises. For combat units (non-technical vocations), it does not really matter if the person is O or A levels, or diploma holders. During fulltime NS, we were trained from privates to officers, on reaching objectives during a mission. And we knew the high possibilities of commanders being made casualties. The lance corporals and privates were taught to take over and complete the missions (this I observe, varies from unit to unit). And some have shown to have talent for it. This carries on into reservist training as well. NS is not just 2 years - its 2 years plus another 10 years in reserves. During that time, some of the lance corporals would have gained the experience to take over as section commanders. During ICTs, I've seen commanders' briefings, missions planning, etc, whereby lance corporals would turn up in place of the usual commanders for whatever reason (commander downgraded, excuse, defer, etc). From experience, they knew what to do for each mission.
I think the SAF should promote these lance corporals to sergeants - some of them have stood in as section commanders for years because the regular commander could be on a long-term excuse. As to why sergeants and officers get promoted - there maybe a need for experienced reservists to carry on beyond the 10 year cycle. Sergeants move on to platoon sergeants or CSM, officers to OC, battalion staff officers and brigade level officers. I'm sure some lurking in this forum have the experience of being "persuaded" to carry on after their first completed cycle.
Of course - promotion should be for those who have the ability, experience and would not mind taking up the appointment.
The SAF is unique in the sense that it determines a person's ability by education level at the point of enlistment. Many have said we are based on the Israeli conscription system. However, from what I gathered, the IDF has a different system (based on ability) of selecting leaders. They have more time (3 years, fulltime), but with the coming reductions to their conscription service as well in the coming years, perhaps we should revisit and relearn from them again.
I won't go into how some commanders have failed, but I have to agree that there should be a better selection method. Considering that NS is now 2 years fulltime for all ranks, I'm quite sure these things are being looked at and considered.
Typing all of this reminds me of Thailand - even the drivers there were ranger and airborne trained, much, much older, seen counter-insurgency border action, and would give you a "I don't give a flying fcuk" stare about your rank look. The face says it all.
At the end of the day - we are in the army, it does not matter to an enemy if you had straight As for your exam if he is determined to kill you. -
this reason doesn't justify why CPLs can be promoted at all. Just because a CPL didn't learn the things mentioned above he is denied a promotion in their 10 years of ICTs? eventhough they have done very well? maybe even better than the specs?Originally posted by saline:anyway, a CPL is not trained in stuffs that a SGT is trained in.
for eg: topo, organic weapons, signals, military symbols, ops order, bla bla bla.
correct?
firstly even reservist specs can't fully remember very things they have learnt after all these years. secondly, men in combat units learnt just as much as the specs . thirdly, most CPLs have the same educational level as their spec counterparts, maybe even higher. -
in sg, got paper means can. no papers means CMI.
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since a reservist spec can't remember everything they have learned, than how about a CPL? same rite?Originally posted by Gordonator:this reason doesn't justify why CPLs can be promoted at all. Just because a CPL didn't learn the things mentioned above he is denied a promotion in their 10 years of ICTs? eventhough they have done very well? maybe even better than the specs?
firstly even reservist specs can't fully remember very things they have learnt after all these years. secondly, men in combat units learnt just as much as the specs . thirdly, most CPLs have the same educational level as their spec counterparts, maybe even higher. -
this is already in place for the more important vocations in the Singapore Armed Forces. the CO, with his S3, DY S3, RSM, blah blah blah interviews a pool of soldiers who are eligible for the vocation, after they have made it through a battery of physical and mental tests, and hand picks his men.Originally posted by equlus84:I think this type of selection is better. I think we should get the CO personally down to BMTC to choose the ppls that are suitable for the vocation, not based on some lame PC interview or CMPB computer psycho-analysis system. Units should also choose peoples based not on how fit they are, but rather, how interested or committed he is in a particular vocation. Honestly speaking, I feel that some peoples are veri immature and mentally unfit for some vocation.
but for BMTC, well, not that i know of.