NS Rank Promotion: Why Reservist NS Units Refuse to for Men?
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that's why both should be treated equally.Originally posted by saline:since a reservist spec can't remember everything they have learned, than how about a CPL? same rite? -
yep, it can be quite f-ed up. but as long as no one dies, i guess things wont change, not that im saying when ppl die, things changes.Originally posted by Gordonator:that's why both should be treated equally.
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it's frustrating. for example, 2 friends with same educational level. both are equally capable soldiers. 1 is a sergeant and 1 is a CPL. after years of ICTs the segeant get promoted to SSG or even MSG. his friend is still a CPL. not fair to the CPL right? even his performance is very good.
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yep, its not fair at all. i personally saw a few men get promoted to specialists, without getting through BSLC.Originally posted by Gordonator:it's frustrating. for example, 2 friends with same educational level. both are equally capable soldiers. 1 is a sergeant and 1 is a CPL. after years of ICTs the segeant get promoted to SSG or even MSG. his friend is still a CPL. not fair to the CPL right? even his performance is very good.
i think that BSLC is the bare minimum any man should go through before becoming a specialist because in the end, all of us are still wearing green and when needed, we MUST be able to function as infantrymen. -
Although most specs n officers got promoted due to paper qualification but i was offered a chance to go to sispec during my nsf days... at tat time i was only a pte and o'level holder in an engineer unit ..... but for me is SERVE AND f**K OFF (SAF) plus 3sgt is 2 1/2 yrs.... where else o'level like me at most promoted to LCP which means 2yrs..... so in the end rejected the offer... Also i nv hav any interests in army stuffs..... SAF does recongnise does promote LCPs and CPLs but far n few.....
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must see appointment also right?Originally posted by Gordonator:it's frustrating. for example, 2 friends with same educational level. both are equally capable soldiers. 1 is a sergeant and 1 is a CPL. after years of ICTs the segeant get promoted to SSG or even MSG. his friend is still a CPL. not fair to the CPL right? even his performance is very good. -
oh i remembered my time during BMT...there was an officer coming down over to our coy doing selection for candidates for the officer cadet course. a couple of my fellow recruits back then wanted to go for NSF officers so they 'performed' during that particular training in the presence of the officer. but that's wayang i believe, still their educational level was consider too before they were selected.Originally posted by Ristar:this is already in place for the more important vocations in the Singapore Armed Forces. the CO, with his S3, DY S3, RSM, blah blah blah interviews a pool of soldiers who are eligible for the vocation, after they have made it through a battery of physical and mental tests, and hand picks his men.
but for BMTC, well, not that i know of.
i think if we cannot change it at least we can give those without a diploma a chance to go for a higher recognition as a regular. after all its just a certificate and if we cannot abolish this i believe SAF can increase the quota of the number of ppl to support for continual education all the way to University. a diploma alone can pave way all the way to WSO but if you wanna go anything above Major u hav to work very hard in many ways.
as for revervists all we want is to clear our ICT...as i have said seems like no incentives' offered even if we get promoted during ICT (correct me SAF haven't changed that right?)
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I cannot help but sometimes felt in the outside work environment when guy after competing NS go for interview, in the form they asked what is the highestOriginally posted by binZ:gents.. there is nv a right or wrong in anything..
for example.. if the co go down to the ground to choose the commanders, you are still basing on the judgement of one person..
even in the corporate world.. sometimes you have to trust the fellow you delegate to do the job..
no matter where, there are people who can polish people's boots all the way up..
there are times when people make wrong decisions..
even if no one can predict how successful one can be in the future..
cheers.
rank they got during NS? -
i encountered employers asking for vocation...as for rank so far no...i hope i can bump into 1 that ask that..a challenge to answer that questionOriginally posted by will4:I cannot help but sometimes felt in the outside work environment when guy after competing NS go for interview, in the form they asked what is the highest
rank they got during NS? -
ya i think i encountered that when i applied for my current job.Originally posted by will4:I cannot help but sometimes felt in the outside work environment when guy after competing NS go for interview, in the form they asked what is the highest
rank they got during NS? -
bro, actually when u talked abt this, i remembered for those that went to SISPEC courses and then back to their respective units for other special commander courses...should they be discounted bcos some CPLs can outperform these Specialists? then what abt Specialist (esp. PLSgt that outperformed the PC?? promote to PC level? or even to OC level? and so on.)Originally posted by Gordonator:this reason doesn't justify why CPLs can be promoted at all. Just because a CPL didn't learn the things mentioned above he is denied a promotion in their 10 years of ICTs? eventhough they have done very well? maybe even better than the specs?
firstly even reservist specs can't fully remember very things they have learnt after all these years. secondly, men in combat units learnt just as much as the specs . thirdly, most CPLs have the same educational level as their spec counterparts, maybe even higher.
what should a unit or rather how should a unit handle these cases? surely, some will lose that jest, whatever it may be during their span of NS fulltime duty, right?
where reservist is concerned, there's much more free-play now for the unit's commanders (OC, PC, CSM n PLSGTs). they can determine and propose for promotion for those section 2ICs and even LCP that handles admin for the coy. as for whether their performance in reservist is indeed better or otherwise, we've to take into account their personal life activities (families, work and others) outside of the Army reservist commitment. not all that report back for ICT come in the right frame of mind.
education is somewhat down-played during reservist period when it comes to promotion. -
Seriously, I think there are some commanders that are really not competent enough to hold the rank...
In my unit,
Some 3SG cannot even give their drill commands properly, cannot do their drills properly, and they still have the guts to f**k the men for lousy drills...
There was also once when we were attending a lecture on navigation conducted by some recce 3SG, then the word MILAN (ATGM) suddenly appeared on the slides. Some of our guys didn't know wat it is, so they asked... he reply:"oh... it's a very big cannon, like 120mm mortar." I was like WTF... recce trained somemore, dunno wat's MILAN, how to gather info...
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Some of the potential employers prefer to hire specialist or officer casue they assumed these people have the ability to lead.Originally posted by newmanmback:i encountered employers asking for vocation...as for rank so far no...i hope i can bump into 1 that ask that..a challenge to answer that question
Another thing is if u put third seregeant or liutenant as the last rank held in NS
employers might be more impressed. If u look at NUS MBA admission criteria
candidates served NS as officers will be considered for admission. -
okay its some interviewers opinions but as a forumite has stated in the force he/she encountered ssg who cannot elaborate much upon mention of milan in the private sector if u dun know your products, service, equipment etc or what u are doing just give instructions things go bad its not like the force. in the force you can get the right if way when u are a higher rank by demanding your men to obey with the issue of a command but in the private sectors u cannot do that..you have to coax and talk them into it with reasons....okay if u dealing with sgrean employees those been to NS before so be it...but dealing esp with foreign labor...they will have depression and think they are treated like some POWOriginally posted by will4:Some of the potential employers prefer to hire specialist or officer casue they assumed these people have the ability to lead.
Another thing is if u put third sergeant or lieutenant as the last rank held in NS
employers might be more impressed. If u look at NUS MBA admission criteria
candidates served NS as officers will be considered for admission. -
i think it will impress the men if he could explain in more details abouut the weapon, mayb like state its range effective firepower history in makin etc....well if u are givin a lecture it may be well worth to prepare for it beforehand...like goin into some techical details of any equipment you mentioned, as long as it will not take up too much time and the lecture was not conducted during high alert. if its classroom lecture then i believe its good to let his men who may not even know what the weaponn's all aboutOriginally posted by Prestroz:Seriously, I think there are some commanders that are really not competent enough to hold the rank...
In my unit,
Some 3SG cannot even give their drill commands properly, cannot do their drills properly, and they still have the guts to f**k the men for lousy drills...
There was also once when we were attending a lecture on navigation conducted by some recce 3SG, then the word MILAN (ATGM) suddenly appeared on the slides. Some of our guys didn't know wat it is, so they asked... he reply:"oh... it's a very big cannon, like 120mm mortar." I was like WTF... recce trained somemore, dunno wat's MILAN, how to gather info... -
that's the problem. When I taught LMIS to my juniors and the occasional OCT, I dusted off my manual and read through it first.It's the least you can do as a responsible lecturer of sorts.Originally posted by newmanmback:i think it will impress the men if he could explain in more details abouut the weapon, mayb like state its range effective firepower history in makin etc....well if u are givin a lecture it may be well worth to prepare for it beforehand...like goin into some techical details of any equipment you mentioned, as long as it will not take up too much time and the lecture was not conducted during high alert. if its classroom lecture then i believe its good to let his men who may not even know what the weaponn's all about
No one respects a half-wit. -
Most NSF have the serve and F OFF type of mentality. Most are just waiting for ATEC to finish and ORD LOR! Thus it may not be surprising that he does not noe wad is Milan. Furthermore most units use the SPIKE now, thus not knowing the MILAN is normal. Like asking a lao jia wad is a 106mm RCL most will noe, but u ask a nsf now, he will be lost.Originally posted by newmanmback:i think it will impress the men if he could explain in more details abouut the weapon, mayb like state its range effective firepower history in makin etc....well if u are givin a lecture it may be well worth to prepare for it beforehand...like goin into some techical details of any equipment you mentioned, as long as it will not take up too much time and the lecture was not conducted during high alert. if its classroom lecture then i believe its good to let his men who may not even know what the weaponn's all about
Wad I am personally disappointed with the criteria "best soldier" of the month is chosen. Most ppl have the impression that a men is just like a dumb mule, as long as he can carry heavy load for long distance, run fast during IPPT or do man Chin-ups, or he shoot veri well, he is considered a best soldier.
For example, there was an instance there was once this guy who is a LAW gunner but he is so lazt that he refuse to learn onli 1 page worth of stuff on LAW for ATEC, when I as 84RR gunner needs to memorise a total of 8 pages. He even went on the extend of persuading the Encik not to send him for evaluation, as they are on friendly terms. Guess wad he actually got away with it and was even awarded the best soldier just bcos he "run the fastest in the coy"(recomendation by CSM)!!! Not forgetting he is the type of guy that goes around malingering that his so and so relative died and he must "bk out to mourn the deceased"
I was not the fittest or most garang but instead went dutifully for every single exercise may it be small or big. I even help team ic look out for alternative deployment grounds and potential enemy route of advancement. Instead, I was given nothing! -
you should take pride that you never chao-keng.Originally posted by equlus84:Most NSF have the serve and F OFF type of mentality. Most are just waiting for ATEC to finish and ORD LOR! Thus it may not be surprising that he does not noe wad is Milan. Furthermore most units use the SPIKE now, thus not knowing the MILAN is normal. Like asking a lao jia wad is a 106mm RCL most will noe, but u ask a nsf now, he will be lost.
Wad I am personally disappointed with the criteria "best soldier" of the month is chosen. Most ppl have the impression that a men is just like a dumb mule, as long as he can carry heavy load for long distance, run fast during IPPT or do man Chin-ups, or he shoot veri well, he is considered a best soldier.
For example, there was an instance there was once this guy who is a LAW gunner but he is so lazt that he refuse to learn onli 1 page worth of stuff on LAW for ATEC, when I as 84RR gunner needs to memorise a total of 8 pages. He even went on the extend of persuading the Encik not to send him for evaluation, as they are on friendly terms. Guess wad he actually got away with it and was even awarded the best soldier just bcos he "run the fastest in the coy"(recomendation by CSM)!!! Not forgetting he is the type of guy that goes around malingering that his so and so relative died and he must "bk out to mourn the deceased"
I was not the fittest or most garang but instead went dutifully for every single exercise may it be small or big. I even help team ic look out for alternative deployment grounds and potential enemy route of advancement. Instead, I was given nothing!
who cares about the stupid title? -
actually, who really cares about promotion? I hope to serve less, 6 mths of service for some rank is really not worth it..
I was a 3SG (technical) but I did a lot of storeman jobs, basically, just a high class storeman with better pay. I don't anyhow push my jobs to ppl of lower rank because we are all NSFs..
basically, when it comes to cleaning, I do with them... coz I cannot stand sitting ard doing nth.. bores me to hell...
with the rank, your superiors expects you to know everything and you men expects you to know everything too... we all learn through experience, not the rank and thus, you get tekan or taunt very often...
there is nth abt rank, sure, with a 3SG, you can ask a 'man' to do some sai kang but those are for the 'I'm so superior because i have rank' shit guys like those in BMT or whatever... in real life, you have to do the jobs too... and you are in middle of nowhere...
I rather be a man and not only serve lesser, when bad things happened, push it to the 3SGs and said you don't know because u haven learn... like what have happened to me... -
it is a universal general understanding that people with paper qualification make better leaders. there is no doubt about it. you take 100 soldiers with degree holder and another 100 with PSLE qualification, give them tough challenging missions. I bet you the degree holders will outwit, outrun the psle ones.
GRANTED, there are always a handful of good leadership capability soldiers in the lower qualification, but by how much is that justifiable to amend SAF's enrolment system to SISPEC, OCS system? previously during the early days, NSF was listed into units as men before selection for sispec/ocs. but that system has since changed, it is now direct from bmt to sispec/ocs then to unit. given the short period of time to access individual standing on leadership and qualification, it has to be done in the current way.
for every 10 "A"/diploma holder officers, i dare say the least 7 will turn out befitting an officer. but for every 10 "O" level or below holders, only 1 or 2 may have great leadership skill. it's just SAF's loss to marginalise these few good men year after year. but to change the current system? very unlikely. -
i'm concern about how normal A levels and diploma enlistees are promoted to CPLs now.
in the past some units only promotes them to CPLs after nearing 2 years of being in the army, as A levels and diploma needs to serve 2.5 years. thus by giving them the rank, they will have to serve the additional 6 months.
now that NS have been shorten to 2 years, are A levels and diploma enlistees rightfully promoted to CPL after 1 year in service?
have seem units that are lazy to do all the paper for promotions of NSFs. many A levels and diploma soldiers are still PTEs even after more than 1 year in service. -
Bollocks. Unless leadership's been added to the A-level/polytechnic syllabus as a core subject, it's got bugger-all to do with education.Originally posted by madcampus:it is a universal general understanding that people with paper qualification make better leaders. there is no doubt about it. you take 100 soldiers with degree holder and another 100 with PSLE qualification, give them tough challenging missions. I bet you the degree holders will outwit, outrun the psle ones. -
Is that because the degree holder is 23 years old, and the PSLE holder is only 12 years old?Originally posted by madcampus:there is no doubt about it. you take 100 soldiers with degree holder and another 100 with PSLE qualification, give them tough challenging missions. I bet you the degree holders will outwit, outrun the psle ones.