Need to clarify...
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for what i know, many many yrs ago.... the SOUTH always give problem to us and they give problem to the North as wellOriginally posted by saline:or "down south"?
they even whack our dear friend Brunei til they almost TAKE OVER IT!
however, nows day its different, over the past ten yrs, they have weaken! mainly due to their internal problems! currently, if you look at their strength, they are not as aggresive as they use to be -
There's 2 MWO coxswain in RSN. MWO Ibrahim and MWO Hussein. MWO Hussein, i think, have duly retired. They were the first few Malays who helped to bring Naval Education to future Naval Officers. Initially, starting out as a MIDShipman Course Commander. Now, i doubt there are other full blooded Malays in the Navy besides those two.
Airforce, there are 2 pilots. One of them being, LTC Zakir (should be..think he got promoted). He pilots the KC over at CAB. One of them is a MAJ Noor, who used to fly but now works in HAL's office. Only a handful of Malay Specialists/Officers serving at RSAF but only at staff appointment levels.
Commandos... Quite a few old soldiers were Malay Commandos. Now, they should be at the WO level liaoz. Known a few commando Malay Enciks who i think have a few years left in the army. Mostly, they were from Lakiun Jungle Survival Training Camp. -
I am of mixed parentage ; Chinese and Malay blood in me. I have always stood on the fence, but I feel that now is the time to come off the fence and have my say, because I find this discrimination against Malays in the military disgusting and nauseous.
When I was younger, way younger, I have always harboured dreams of joining the Commandos, donning the red beret or maybe flying an F-16 etc Honestly, which little boy doesn't? As I got older I realize the ugliness of the discrimination against Malays in the SAF ; few if any are found in sensitive formations like armour, signals, commandos, artillery, the navy and the list goes on. If truly makes a mockery of the pledge we recite all day, with the words "regardless of race, language or religion". I am ashamed to be Singaporean, ashamed how we trumpet we are a secular state but still practice this unjustified discrimination. We are no better than the Malaysians with their bumiputra policy if we insist on carrying on with this practice. It does not belong here, in my homeland.
My identity card lists me as a Chinese citizen of Singapore, but on behalf of my half-brethren the Malays, I say this : F*** this policy. The genius behind it can shove a rifle barrel up his anus and pull the trigger.
I have spoken to a couple of officers, one an NSman infantry officer and the other was my personal tutor - a captain in the RSAF. I have discussed how signing on would be like, just a casual and passing interest. Because of my mixed parentage and Malay features, they warned how I might suffer discrimination should I choose a career in the armed forces.
I have not forgotten the words of the RSAF captain, "It's just a matter of geography. If Singapore were to be located in the Indian subcontinent, perhaps we would have practiced discrimination against the Indians, or maybe against if the Chinese if we were closer to China." He then shrugged, knowing that his explaination was not even close to satisfying this hanging question
What message is the esteemed leadership of our country sending to the Malay community here? That we cannot be trusted, that we are potential fifth columnists, traitors, terrorists, Malaysian army infiltrators?
Undoubtedly, there are Malays out there in the services who hold high positions, and perhaps some enlisted men are serving in arms traditionally barred to the Malays. But admit, the ratios reflect how we still practice discrimination. Does the government really think that the masses would not notice how the vast majority of serving NSFs in the Police and SCDF are Malays?
So tell me, is a "matter of geography" a good enough rationale for this subtle racism?
Moderators, please do not lock this thread. I sincerely would like to hear responses to this. What I have just posted is something that would never be able to see the light of the Straits Time's Forum section, you guys know that. Please do not let this matter be swept under the carpet any longer. -
Actually, I rather agree with the post above. If the policy makers were afraid that the Malays here could be potential troublemakers, or traitors, or won't be loyal to Singapore, what makes them think that sending them to the Police/CDF Won't make these people potential troublemakers too, if they decide 2 align themselves with their muslim brothers, in the event of war against Indonesia/Malaysia or any other muslim country?
Let's not kid ourselves that our society is still as harmonious as ever. The divide between the races is getting bigger. U go to any sec school and u will see more likely that people of their own races stick together. And u continue this crap even in NS, then that's it. When they reach adulthood, chances are they won't bother 2 mix with other races anymore. -
Originally posted by iSpeak:
I want to put this in the Straits Times Forum. Useful info. Hmm, i really agree with this whole thing he said. Let it be heard.
I am of mixed parentage ; Chinese and Malay blood in me. I have always stood on the fence, but I feel that now is the time to come off the fence and have my say, because I find this discrimination against Malays in the military [b]disgusting and nauseous.
When I was younger, way younger, I have always harboured dreams of joining the Commandos, donning the red beret or maybe flying an F-16 etc Honestly, which little boy doesn't? As I got older I realize the ugliness of the discrimination against Malays in the SAF ; few if any are found in sensitive formations like armour, signals, commandos, artillery, the navy and the list goes on. If truly makes a mockery of the pledge we recite all day, with the words "regardless of race, language or religion". I am ashamed to be Singaporean, ashamed how we trumpet we are a secular state but still practice this unjustified discrimination. We are no better than the Malaysians with their bumiputra policy if we insist on carrying on with this practice. It does not belong here, in my homeland.
My identity card lists me as a Chinese citizen of Singapore, but on behalf of my half-brethren the Malays, I say this : F*** this policy. The genius behind it can shove a rifle barrel up his anus and pull the trigger.
I have spoken to a couple of officers, one an NSman infantry officer and the other was my personal tutor - a captain in the RSAF. I have discussed how signing on would be like, just a casual and passing interest. Because of my mixed parentage and Malay features, they warned how I might suffer discrimination should I choose a career in the armed forces.
I have not forgotten the words of the RSAF captain, "It's just a matter of geography. If Singapore were to be located in the Indian subcontinent, perhaps we would have practiced discrimination against the Indians, or maybe against if the Chinese if we were closer to China." He then shrugged, knowing that his explaination was not even close to satisfying this hanging question
What message is the esteemed leadership of our country sending to the Malay community here? That we cannot be trusted, that we are potential fifth columnists, traitors, terrorists, Malaysian army infiltrators?
Undoubtedly, there are Malays out there in the services who hold high positions, and perhaps some enlisted men are serving in arms traditionally barred to the Malays. But admit, the ratios reflect how we still practice discrimination. Does the government really think that the masses would not notice how the vast majority of serving NSFs in the Police and SCDF are Malays?
So tell me, is a "matter of geography" a good enough rationale for this subtle racism?
Moderators, please do not lock this thread. I sincerely would like to hear responses to this. What I have just posted is something that would never be able to see the light of the Straits Time's Forum section, you guys know that. Please do not let this matter be swept under the carpet any longer. [/b] -
Well, any policy would have its inherent merits together with its accompanying drawbacks.
I am of mixed parentage ; Chinese and Malay blood in me. I have always stood on the fence, but I feel that now is the time to come off the fence and have my say, because I find this discrimination against Malays in the military disgusting and nauseous.
When I was younger, way younger, I have always harboured dreams of joining the Commandos, donning the red beret or maybe flying an F-16 etc Honestly, which little boy doesn't? As I got older I realize the ugliness of the discrimination against Malays in the SAF ; few if any are found in sensitive formations like armour, signals, commandos, artillery, the navy and the list goes on. If truly makes a mockery of the pledge we recite all day, with the words "regardless of race, language or religion". I am ashamed to be Singaporean, ashamed how we trumpet we are a secular state but still practice this unjustified discrimination. We are no better than the Malaysians with their bumiputra policy if we insist on carrying on with this practice. It does not belong here, in my homeland.
My identity card lists me as a Chinese citizen of Singapore, but on behalf of my half-brethren the Malays, I say this : F*** this policy. The genius behind it can shove a rifle barrel up his anus and pull the trigger.
I have spoken to a couple of officers, one an NSman infantry officer and the other was my personal tutor - a captain in the RSAF. I have discussed how signing on would be like, just a casual and passing interest. Because of my mixed parentage and Malay features, they warned how I might suffer discrimination should I choose a career in the armed forces.
I have not forgotten the words of the RSAF captain, "It's just a matter of geography. If Singapore were to be located in the Indian subcontinent, perhaps we would have practiced discrimination against the Indians, or maybe against if the Chinese if we were closer to China." He then shrugged, knowing that his explaination was not even close to satisfying this hanging question
What message is the esteemed leadership of our country sending to the Malay community here? That we cannot be trusted, that we are potential fifth columnists, traitors, terrorists, Malaysian army infiltrators?
Undoubtedly, there are Malays out there in the services who hold high positions, and perhaps some enlisted men are serving in arms traditionally barred to the Malays. But admit, the ratios reflect how we still practice discrimination. Does the government really think that the masses would not notice how the vast majority of serving NSFs in the Police and SCDF are Malays?
So tell me, is a "matter of geography" a good enough rationale for this subtle racism?
Moderators, please do not lock this thread. I sincerely would like to hear responses to this. What I have just posted is something that would never be able to see the light of the Straits Time's Forum section, you guys know that. Please do not let this matter be swept under the carpet any longer.
Inevitably, there will be winner and losers, some try to justify this unfair manpower allocation to geographical reasons etc. While i cannot totally agree with the justification on the status quo, i can identify with the merits and significance of maintaining racial balance within certain key operational units in the event a conflict occurs with our regional neighbours.
Ultimately we have to bear in mind that national defence is of a upmost importance, anything else is really secondary, and in this instance if it means that a racial group has to be discriminated in postings/staffing in order for our operational capabilty not to be jeopardise, i suppose it is the lesser of the 2 evils. -
Perspective changes when one is outside and inside the loop. From an enlistee's perspective (Me perspective), yes, it might be unfair to barred ppl from entering certain services based on pre-requistes.
However, from a commander's perspective (We perspective, here refers to higher ups in the Military). It may be necessary, if there is a uncertain factor on the ground that MAY change the situation. Do you
a.) Remove that uncertain factor.
b.) Or allow the factor to exist and take the risks involved.
And from wat I know, all militaries are out to win a war and not lose it, so do you choose (a) or (b). The choice is obvious.
Of course, the current situation is unfair. However, that doesn't mean it will forever stay that way, so it will be a matter of time where the uncertain factor no longer applies and we already seeing it more and more nowadays as Singapore become more integrated.
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Maybe because there isnt??Originally posted by toll123:Another thing: I have never seen a Malay 'star' before.
If there is to be one day, I think COL Ishak would be an ideal candidate.
But he how old already... think he will retire as COL. oh well.
LKY did say that we are surrounded by muslims neighbours. And they are scared that our SG malays would betray SG and fight for them if war ensues. thats why he got to keep malays away from key appts office...
I think that is bullsh1T... all of us are patriotic to the country. irregardless of skin color and faith. -
Thanks.... Ya guys bring up some interesting points and facts....
But I think this arguement may go on forever coz in the end, there are no solid evidence that goes in favour or against this arguement.... And I think if any is found out, its gonna end up buried again..... -
Originally posted by mhcampboy:
how many of us are actually that patriotic?
all of us are patriotic to the country. irregardless of skin color and faith. -
We are patriotic enough to pay taxes...Originally posted by saline:how many of us are actually that patriotic? -
Is it truly the lesser of two evils? In the interests of national defence, we close an eye to a ''necessary evil" that contributes to the degradation of social intergration? Seeing as how Singapore is nowhere near to being a homogenous society but a rojak-like fusion of different peoples, I would say in the big picture, this is the larger evil. All Singaporean males undergo National Service and will be witness to this discrimination, therefore making this, ultimately, detrimental to national interests.Originally posted by juay323:Ultimately we have to bear in mind that national defence is of a upmost importance, anything else is really secondary, and in this instance if it means that a racial group has to be discriminated in postings/staffing in order for our operational capabilty not to be jeopardise, i suppose it is the lesser of the 2 evils.
So the people in the ivory towers want Singaporeans to stand up and fight should the need arises. The question I pose to them is why should the Malays fight for a state that sidelines them, that holds the view that they might be potential backstabbers out in the field? The "tactical" basis for this discrimination does not justify it much because of the ultimate cost to the fabric of society.
Furthermore, I do not see any forseeable conflict with the neighbours up north till 2061 when the current water agreement expires. By that time, many of you here will dead or far too old to be called up back to camp. Face reality. It is sheer stupidity to go to war with the Malaysians. Many Singaporean armchair generals sit back and talk tough, perenially comparing the military capabilities of our two nations in tones that would sound as if the current bilateral situation is as tension gripping as the one hanging over the Straits of Taiwan. It is not. The most serious spat between us right now in recent years is over Pedra Blanca, a rock with nothing on it save for a lighthouse and seagulls' droppings. Our past differences such being cheated out of the Common Market and subsequently being kicked out Malaya, are in today's context far too trivial and irrelevant to go to war with. We have too much in common with them in culture etc food or style of speech and many other such shared grounds.
I would not feel any better shooting a Malaysian Chinese over a Malaysian Malay, would not feel any better shooting a Malaysian Hindu over a Malaysian Muslim. Nor would any of my Chinese, Malay and Indian friends. If you think differently, then I would go as far as saying go get your passport and get the hell out of here, Singapore has no such place for racial bigots and that you sir, are an ***hole of the first degree. If you have friends who would be more at ease having someone of a different race in the iron sights of his rifle, then you are mixing with the wrong crowd.
This is just one of the small things that make Singapore a f***ed up island to reside on. Such unhappiness with discriminatory policies against locals, this time a specific section of the citizentry, will little by little accumulate and coagulate with all the major issues we have with our ruling government.
Perhaps when the time really comes for us to call up arms, we should just hand that SAR-21 over to the nearest Bangla on his way to work. Or raise a few divisions of Gurkhas to fight our battles.
Racial harmony. Embrace it. Cheers to all Ah Bengs, Mats and Thambis reading my post.
I know my post carries over bitter sentiments laced in candid statements, for that I apologize in advance. -
if u dun pay, u get to pay... MORE.Originally posted by MohamedF:We are patriotic enough to pay taxes... -
If Singapore were to go to war with PRC, will the majority Chinese fight? From the amount of discrimination and hatred against the PRC FTs in Singapore, I think so but maybe I am wrong.
If Singapore were to go to war against the Vatican (I know it is ridiculous but just for the sake of argument), would the Catholics fight? If we were to go to war with a Muslim nation, will the minority Malays fight? If we were to declare war against India, would the Indians fight?
Then consider which of the above unlikely scenarios would be the most likely.... -
Realism may be here today, but I dare say that realpolitik in terms of social policies when dealing with military policy, is too expensive one to keep.Originally posted by oxford mushroom:If Singapore were to go to war with PRC, will the majority Chinese fight? From the amount of discrimination and hatred against the PRC FTs in Singapore, I think so but maybe I am wrong.
If Singapore were to go to war against the Vatican (I know it is ridiculous but just for the sake of argument), would the Catholics fight? If we were to go to war with a Muslim nation, will the minority Malays fight? If we were to declare war against India, would the Indians fight?
Then consider which of the above unlikely scenarios would be the most likely....
The will to fight is not necessarily about any pre-existing hatred towards any race or nation outside our boundaries, but rather the kind of ownership one feels towards his own nation.
He who feels that he has the most at stake here, will be more willing to fire that gun compared to a diametrically opposed situation.Take a look around, which ethnic group has the largest stake here? And through anecdotal evidence/streettalk, which ethnic group do you find usually has the most gripes about National Service?
A government that does not have the vision to build up a real melting pot as opposed to a artificial tray of sweets, is a government that is taking the easy way out.To design military policy out of unofficial discrimination is something archaic in today's world where manpower is paramount. Secondly, it raises the question of what our intelligence services are doing? Anyone can be a threat to military operations in times of war, regardless of race or religion.
Have we placed ease of policy implementation on the top of the pedestal over the over-arching need to build inclusiveness?
I'm playing devil's advocate but I feel that he who fights, is not necessarily determined by his race not ethnic ties in an absolute sense. -
Do not underestimate the strength of racial and in particular, religious ties. Not all Singaporeans are secular and religion remains an integral part of some communities. The government has taken a very pragmatic though not politically correct approach to this and they have been open enough to admit it.Originally posted by LazerLordz:I'm playing devil's advocate but I feel that he who fights, is not necessarily determined by his race not ethnic ties in an absolute sense.
There are various avenues available for national service. The government is trying to prevent certain ethnic groups from facing the awful dilemma of choosing between nation versus religion. This policy is a temporary measure. If Singaporeans become more secular and less religious as in many western nations, such a policy will no longer be necessary.
At one time. students from Chinese medium schools were also not posted to sensitive vocations in the army, given the sympathies many of them have towards Communist China. That is obviously no longer an issue. I believe in time, more Malays will be admitted to sensitive vocations on a case by case basis. Obviously, the authorities will have to do careful background checks.
I do not see racial discrimination in this policy. I see it in the many Chinese employers who insist on employees who must speak Mandarin when there is little need to do so. That is racial discrimination but unfortunately there are many of them even in this forum. -
The issue of Chinese employers, or any employers for that matter, seeking job applicants based on race is very regrettable.Originally posted by oxford mushroom:Do not underestimate the strength of racial and in particular, religious ties. Not all Singaporeans are secular and religion remains an integral part of some communities. The government has taken a very pragmatic though not politically correct approach to this and they have been open enough to admit it.
There are various avenues available for national service. The government is trying to prevent certain ethnic groups from facing the awful dilemma of choosing between nation versus religion. This policy is a temporary measure. If Singaporeans become more secular and less religious as in many western nations, such a policy will no longer be necessary.
At one time. students from Chinese medium schools were also not posted to sensitive vocations in the army, given the sympathies many of them have towards Communist China. That is obviously no longer an issue. I believe in time, more Malays will be admitted to sensitive vocations on a case by case basis. Obviously, the authorities will have to do careful background checks.
I do not see racial discrimination in this policy. I see it in the many Chinese employers who insist on employees who must speak Mandarin when there is little need to do so. That is racial discrimination but unfortunately there are many of them even in this forum.
For the above, I do see some improvement in this aspect, with more equity these days, slowly but surely.Let's hope that it improves further. -
Quoted for emphasis. Very true. SCDF and SPF personnel generally have more fufilling vocations.Originally posted by nismoS132:why the hell would you want to be in army when you can be in CD or SPF?
you get more pay, more free time, more practical and usefull skills, and more pride. at least you're saving lives.
you'll be earning 1k+ as a fireman while you'll be lucky to get 600 as a soldier, maybe 900 if you're a 3SG.
as a CD fireman, you work 1 day, off 2 days. as a soldier, unless you're very lucky, you're in camp 6 days a week, you only go home on weekends.
firefighters put out fires, rescue suicidal idiots, generally useful, purposeful lifes. as a soldier you're going to rot in camp waiting for the next bookout.