An unfortunate incident
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I think we need a bit more detail here.
First, was your brother's platoon mate dehydrated or did he appear to have have heat stroke? Second, what were the standing orders for casevac? Third, was the car actually abandoned? -
Let's not jump to conclusions.Originally posted by SpecOps87:If they can't see the fact that a life is at stake, it sure goes to illustrate what an org. the SAF is. Go save people when got Tsunami or Earthquake for what when you don't even give credit for the wit of a soldier for saving another soldier's life.The officer whom charged your bro ought to be brought on the line and shot!
Like I said, IF the guy was in danger of dying.. -
Alright...mebbe TS can share alittle more details. Not enlisted yet, but am curious, during TOPO, is there like protocols which the trainees have to follow when addressing emergencies such as the one TS posted about?Originally posted by LazerLordz:Let's not jump to conclusions.
Like I said, IF the guy was in danger of dying.. -
Ok...Let's give another scenario. If yr brother knows he is going to kena all this Sh*t for saving a life. Will he do it again?
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hey guys thanks for your opinions and stuff
I am not sure about all the details and stuff
but given the conditon and situation my brother could have radioed for help or something but he was too rashed in wanting to save a person's life. that guy was dehydrating in the sense that he didn't want to move. couldn't possibly carry him around when the whole platoon was also already tired and thirsthy
the car was seemed abandoned. not abandoned..like I have said my brother might have been too rushed in his mind to save him. well even if he was wrong in the first place to steal wouldn't the punishment be too harsh? -
he would save a person's life first..as an officer his duty is to ensure the safety of his platoonmates..I believe he would do that again..if this case happens on me I would also save the person's life firstOriginally posted by zenden9:Ok...Let's give another scenario. If yr brother knows he is going to kena all this Sh*t for saving a life. Will he do it again? -
sorry not enlisted in ns..don't really get your second questionOriginally posted by Gedanken:I think we need a bit more detail here.
First, was your brother's platoon mate dehydrated or did he appear to have have heat stroke? Second, what were the standing orders for casevac? Third, was the car actually abandoned? -
U answer it! So pls don have any hard feeling towards the punishment... Go see the movie ' Behind enemy lines' !Originally posted by Diehard_89:he would save a person's life first..as an officer his duty is to ensure the safety of his platoonmates..I believe he would do that again..if this case happens on me I would also save the person's life first -
Originally posted by zenden9:U answer it! So pls don have any hard feeling towards the punishment... Go see the movie ' Behind enemy lines' !
haha ok..but that Owen Wilson didn't get demoted 
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oh wait the old guy got stripped off its rank and stuffOriginally posted by Diehard_89: haha ok..but that Owen Wilson didn't get demoted -
No...the Admiral was forced to a desk job, he decided to retire instead of be a paper pusher.Originally posted by Diehard_89:oh wait the old guy got stripped off its rank and stuff -
oh yeap..in Washington DC or somethingOriginally posted by SpecOps87:No...the Admiral was forced to a desk job, he decided to retire instead of be a paper pusher.
but he did a right thing in saving Owen Wilson's ass or else cannot watch you me and dupree -
judging from the points i highlighted in red, i believe your brother is too impulsive in his actions.
firstly he should have radioed for help. secondly, from your descriptions i believe the soldier isn't really dying, maybe just dehydrated. thirdly, i find it hard to believe an abandoned car in working condition with keys still inside it. i think it's more like someone park it there and went off for a while.
this is considered a serious offence if the dehydrated soldier isn't in critical life threatening condition to justify youir brother actions in stealing the car plus failing to report this to his superiors.Originally posted by Diehard_89:but given the conditon and situation my brother could have radioed for help or something but he was too rashed in wanting to save a person's life. that guy was dehydrating in the sense that he didn't want to move. couldn't possibly carry him around when the whole platoon was also already tired and thirsthy
the car was seemed abandoned. not abandoned..like I have said my brother might have been too rushed in his mind to save him. well even if he was wrong in the first place to steal wouldn't the punishment be too harsh? -
that guy was in a critical life threathening point ..even rendered immobile..you heard of a case whereby a cadet officer died in Brunei? cos of dehydration tooOriginally posted by Gordonator:judging from the points i highlighted in red, i believe your brother is too impulsive in his actions.
firstly he should have radioed for help. secondly, from your descriptions i believe the soldier isn't really dying, maybe just dehydrated. thirdly, i find it hard to believe an abandoned car in working condition with keys still inside it. i think it's more like someone park it there and went off for a while.
this is considered a serious offence if the dehydrated soldier isn't in critical life threatening condition to justify youir brother actions in stealing the car plus failing to report this to his superiors. -
before going in db, they will normally read out your charge one lehz. just dun accept it. appeal it fight all the way, coz now you are talking about live at stock.
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i see. even if that's the case, your brother should still radio back informing his superior of the situation. if radio fails to work ot what-so-ever, then drive him to seek help.Originally posted by Diehard_89:that guy was in a critical life threathening point ..even rendered immobile..you heard of a case whereby a cadet officer died in Brunei? cos of dehydration too
if really that fellow is dying, then i say the punishment is indeed too harsh. didn't that soldier appeal or speak up for your brother in court? -
On such an exercise there is a default rule (standing order) for CASualty EVACuations - the trainees will have been briefed about it before commencing the exercise.Originally posted by Diehard_89:sorry not enlisted in ns..don't really get your second question
I understand your brother's intentions and from that perspective I'd be pretty pissed off about the outcome. However, objectively speaking and all things being equal, there were two key errors of judgement that cost your brother dearly. The first was that he overreacted to the situation. Dehydration is not an emergency, and even if the team was out of water, Brunei is not a difficult place in which to find water.
The second is that he made the misjudgement of taking the car - that was an error on three levels. First, he assumed that the car was abandoned - this was a failure on his instructors' part because they should have instructed your brother better about the circumstances in Brunei. The SAF trains there upon the goodwill of the people of Brunei, and as outsiders, SAF personnel must have respect for property there in order to maintain the goodwill. Second, your brother would already have seen that the people in the jungle are not rich - there is no reason that they would abandon a working vehicle, and in rural areas people are not as security-conscious as in urban areas, so finding cars unlocked is not unusual. Third, in any situation, a vehicle is not an insignificant piece of property, and as an officer cadet your brother was expected to have the sense to understand the implicatons of taking it without permission - the taking of such a piece of property would unquestionably be a chargable offence.
I sympathise with your brother's situation, but ultimately the penalty is pretty difficult to argue against. In his position, the one person I'd have a real problem with is the guy who got dehydrated because there's no reason for him to have gotten himself into such a state.
This may sound harsh, but from experience I'd say that Brunei's a very comfortable environment if you take care of yourself, and that kind of trouble is entirely avoidable. It's each man's responsibility to ensure that he doesn't create trouble for his mates. -
I am not too sure..that guy got commissioned I think..then 3 people including my brother kena..the rests were safe.Originally posted by Gordonator:i see. even if that's the case, your brother should still radio back informing his superior of the situation. if radio fails to work ot what-so-ever, then drive him to seek help.
if really that fellow is dying, then i say the punishment is indeed too harsh. didn't that soldier appeal or speak up for your brother in court?
we mentioned about the case in court lah then that ass judge didn't care..my brother who was an airforce officer even went to talk to his commander..in the end ended up crying cos too sad
nb justice system..sometimes I really wonder if the balance of justice is really balanced
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Ouch,reality bites. All I can say is this, feel sorry for your bro. Wrong Place, Wrong Time, Wrong Decision, Right Intention all do not mix.Originally posted by Diehard_89:I am not too sure..that guy got commissioned I think..then 3 people including my brother kena..the rests were safe.
we mentioned about the case in court lah then that ass judge didn't care..my brother who was an airforce officer even went to talk to his commander..in the end ended up crying cos too sad
nb justice system..sometimes I really wonder if the balance of justice is really balanced -
please do not link justice to compassion. justice is blind. look at our lady justice statue at city hall, she's blindfolded. for a good reason.
1) if a hungry man were to steal from a food stall, he will be charged.
2) if a woman were to murder her rapist, she will be charged.
3) if a poor father were to rob the rich to feed his kids, he will be charged. -
Originally posted by madcampus:
[b]please do not link justice to compassion. justice is blind. look at our lady justice statue at city hall, she's blindfolded. for a good reason.
don't think she is blindfolded. -
Sigh..
i think the situation was unfortunate enough ..
if you think we need to follow protocols... i think we must first know if the signal sets was working in the first place.
sigh... while your bro really did the act out of good willl
OCS decided to be anal and follow the law by the letter.... -
This story sounds very familiar. My opinion on the matter is the same as the first time I heard it.
Fact: That a theft indeed did occur.
There is little else that can be said about it. It doesn't matter whether your brother THOUGHT it was abandoned or not. He took something that does not belong to him. And it turned out that the owner saw him, and caught him.
What you THINK cannot justify your actions. Otherwise, I could intentionally murder an innocent man, and justify my actions by saying, "I THOUGHT the man was a terrorist trying to kill me."
Common sense also dictates that a working car with fuel definitely belongs to someone. Your brother cannot simply take possession of other people's property without asking. This is not even allowed in War, unless the Emergency Powers are invoked.
True, your brother may have THOUGHT it was a life-threatening emergency. But whether he stole the car really out of good faith in response to an emergency is difficult to prove. Especially so when the emergency did not seem so life threatening after evaluation.
Unfortunate matter, but its time to let go. -
Gotta' agreed with Ged. on his viewpoints
back in 01' when I was in brunei, a guy in my section were showing symptoms of heat disorder (pale, body cramps) while we were taking a rest in the jungle...
we unbuttoned his shirt and sprinkled water on him but that didn't help. Seeing his cramps got worst, we decided to comms HQ informing them of the situation.
Luckily our rest point weren't too far off ZEBU, so HQ despatched a CASEVAC party to rendevous with us to extract that guy. -
I see thanks guys for all your views and stuff..
yeap I think should really let go and my brother did really commit an offence..and besides this happened 4 years ago but still really felt enraged whenever I told this experience to my friends
cannot help much though cos it is over
anyone got similar experience? care to enlighten? me haven't enlisted so don't know much of the technical terms