An unfortunate incident
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Aiyah, try to see the entire SAF more of a machine then some system with compassion and you will feel a lot better about getting caught in the cogs from no fault of your own.
But I'm sure we all had our suck-thumb experiences. Mine happened when I was in SISPEC, we were doing topo and going rather well when one of our detail members lost a radio antenna. The joker behind him wasn't doing his job in noticing stuff that he dropped... but how he lost it is still a mystery. After that no morale liao, but still completed that test anyway.
The OC unfortunatley, was one of those kind of emperors that not only kill those responsible, but also their family and friends. Thought the other half of us were not directly responsible for the loss (and by virtue of our appointments as front scout and navigator) we still all kenna killed by him, ended up taking two confinement plus 1206 pay cut for the antenna for something we couldn't have prevented unless we were psychic.
But you know the SAF, how they like to cover all bases. I guess we could have cut our losses by insisting that the loss was not our fault (being new to the SAF and stuck on Tekong, weekends were VERY important), but we decided to stick it out with the joker lost the thing, must be some twisted platoon ethos at work.
Anyway that incident (on top of others) totally killed my passion for the SAF. Some people are go-getters, they believe in getting rank for personal achievement in the SAF and hence they might take this pretty well. But for me I came in with the naive idea that I would happily be my best for the system defending the nation, but that incident pretty much destroyed that motivation and I started to slack off in like any wiser NSF.
I guess that made me into that Infantry Specialist who was always finding ways around the rulebook and slipping unoffical "cheat" tips to the recruits under me in BMTC to more TRULY prepare them for army life... as opposed to much of the wayang recruits often learn in Tekong.
But oh well, that time is over. ORD LOH! -
ok ok though i wasnt the same cohort with the bravo jcc...this is wat i heard from the Wing C, APC and WSM.
1) No one was on the brink of dying from dehydration. They were terribly sianz of the long distance and in fact, had a more than sufficient supply of water.
2) The vehicle was not abandoned at all. It was left in the middle of the plantation or farm by a worker with the keys intact on the ignition. When the cadets took it for a joyride, it already amounted to theft which was a serious offence.
3) Discovered after the worker made a report of the missing vehicle and when a villager made a report of missing/dead livestock when the vehicle apparently run over them.
If the cadets weren't demoted because of the intention to cheat, surely that it's because of theft of the vehicle. The bottles were also full of water and their harbour camp was just nice 200m from a fresh water tributary.
To know two sides of the story really puts the arguments to perspective now. -
That sounds more realistic.Originally posted by Master -_-:1) No one was on the brink of dying from dehydration. They were terribly sianz of the long distance and in fact, had a more than sufficient supply of water.
2) The vehicle was not abandoned at all. It was left in the middle of the plantation or farm by a worker with the keys intact on the ignition. When the cadets took it for a joyride, it already amounted to theft which was a serious offence.
3) Discovered after the worker made a report of the missing vehicle and when a villager made a report of missing/dead livestock when the vehicle apparently run over them.
If the cadets weren't demoted because of the intention to cheat, surely that it's because of theft of the vehicle. The bottles were also full of water and their harbour camp was just nice 200m from a fresh water tributary.
Certainly access to water is not an issue in Brunei. If it was in a dry area like Kanchanaburi, maybe, but there's just too much available water in Brunei for there to have been a problem. Besides, it's hard to imagine everyone going completely dry during a navex.
As for the vehicle, hell, when I was a kid I made the mistake of taking a bike that was leaning against a tree in Punggol. As it turns out it wasn't abandoned, and people in the area were simply not used to having to lock everything up. The case would be even more applicable in Brunei, and in any case, the rule of good tactical sense is to leave things alone and leave no trace. I expect that the dead livestock would have been the real clincher, though. -
problem is thats also only one side. i won't put it under them to play with statements or whatever to justify the actions take; just as i guess could be said of the victim.Originally posted by Master -_-:ok ok though i wasnt the same cohort with the bravo jcc...this is wat i heard from the Wing C, APC and WSM.
1) No one was on the brink of dying from dehydration. They were terribly sianz of the long distance and in fact, had a more than sufficient supply of water.
2) The vehicle was not abandoned at all. It was left in the middle of the plantation or farm by a worker with the keys intact on the ignition. When the cadets took it for a joyride, it already amounted to theft which was a serious offence.
3) Discovered after the worker made a report of the missing vehicle and when a villager made a report of missing/dead livestock when the vehicle apparently run over them.
If the cadets weren't demoted because of the intention to cheat, surely that it's because of theft of the vehicle. The bottles were also full of water and their harbour camp was just nice 200m from a fresh water tributary.
To know two sides of the story really puts the arguments to perspective now.
either we don't know the full story i guess. -
Uhh, we've heard the other side of the story from Diehard already. Master's version is more credible, especially with regards to the issue of water availability.Originally posted by hisoka:problem is thats also only one side. i won't put it under them to play with statements or whatever to justify the actions take; just as i guess could be said of the victim.
either we don't know the full story i guess. -
not sure about the water reliability never been there, so i can't comment. was operating on the assumption that i is possible to get dehydration and the person may not know where to get waer even if its like jsut 100 metres away.Originally posted by Gedanken:Uhh, we've heard the other side of the story from Diehard already. Master's version is more credible, especially with regards to the issue of water availability.
but then i was refering to all the "facts" about plenty of water, theft, joyride etc.
we may have heard both sides of the story but we have no idea which side is true. even discounting the water availability part theres still the authencity of the joy ride and full water bottles(as i said i won't say its impossible those were added in to bolster claim of punishment because they felt punishment needed to be metted to appease pple). of course we should also question the dehydration and immobility part too. -
why would my brother want to take the car for a joyride?
that's quite ridiculous -
If there were just 2 people topo as a group, then its really a bad case. No witnesses. Soldier found driving stolen vehicle. Dehydrated soldier suddenly becomes OK.
If there are other people in the group, then their statements sealed your brother's fate. -
I agree that the joyride accusation is hard to substantiate, but the water and theft issue can be pretty easily substantiated by facts. Even in 45-degree heat, I've never emtied my water bottles before, so unless the men had absolutely no water discipline, I doubt that they would be completely out.Originally posted by hisoka:not sure about the water reliability never been there, so i can't comment. was operating on the assumption that i is possible to get dehydration and the person may not know where to get waer even if its like jsut 100 metres away.
but then i was refering to all the "facts" about plenty of water, theft, joyride etc.
we may have heard both sides of the story but we have no idea which side is true. even discounting the water availability part theres still the authencity of the joy ride and full water bottles(as i said i won't say its impossible those were added in to bolster claim of punishment because they felt punishment needed to be metted to appease pple). of course we should also question the dehydration and immobility part too. -
There is one angle that you may not have considered here, Diehard. It's not unknown for trainees on a topo exercise to try and acquire vehicles to speed things up. The members of the Board of Inquiry may have considered that aspect as a possible, or even probable, reason for your brother to have taken the car, especially since his platoon mate's condition was not serious.Originally posted by Diehard_89:why would my brother want to take the car for a joyride? that's quite ridiculous -
hmmm different people got different needs so still got possibility of getting dehydration..who knows?Originally posted by Gedanken:I agree that the joyride accusation is hard to substantiate, but the water and theft issue can be pretty easily substantiated by facts. Even in 45-degree heat, I've never emtied my water bottles before, so unless the men had absolutely no water discipline, I doubt that they would be completely out.
well I feel that enough arguments and views have been thrown into this topic..the more I see the more I feel the punishment is being too harsh..I agree that the punishment should be there but not that harsh..hmm
think too much not good..hope the moderator can close this topic? thanks
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One thing i don't understand.
SAF laws still apply when you are overseas?
Why wasn't he subjected to Brunei laws? -
Status of Forces Agreement.Originally posted by Ponders:One thing i don't understand.
SAF laws still apply when you are overseas?
Why wasn't he subjected to Brunei laws?
Which is the same as how USN sailors, if caught in a brawl at a local pub, will be charged under their UCMJ, not Singapore law, if I remember correctly.
Our jurisdiction in Taiwan..may be a bit different. -
Nope. I suppose I'll have to be blunt here.Originally posted by Diehard_89:hmmm different people got different needs so still got possibility of getting dehydration..who knows?
As someone who's not only done LRRP tours in Brunei but have firsthand experience with a range of heat injuries up to heat exhaustion, I find your brother's platoon mate's claim of dehydration highly unlikely to the point where I'd say point blank that the bugger was malingering.
Let me put it to you this way. On a 35 km route march, my section commander noticed that I was weaving about and showing the signs of dehydration and got about half a bottle of water into me immediately - I managed to complete the remaining 6 km at forced march pace. If a simple, timely remedy like that could work so effectively, I don't buy for a minute that your brother's platoon mate was ever in any danger at all.
Note that I'm not saying anything about your brother's decision - it's most likely that he got conned by his platoon mate who just wanted to keng, and it's a crying shame that malingerers like that can get commissioned as officers. -
Well when you play with the bull... sometimes you get the horn.
But heh, I do know for a fact that people tend to do many funny things on exercises, esp. topo overseas when you are left all alone to your own devices with no one to watch over you in a foreign land.
Some end up supplementing their rations with those of the local "ninjas" and maybe even tossing away or donating their SAF rations. We even saw local kids running around with SAF Long 4, if you want to get an idea of how some soldiers are desperate enough to reduce their load.
It's not unknown for some daring soldiers to try getting a faster means of transport by making arrangments with the locals to hitch a ride. And did end up harbouring in the dewllings of the locals and getting cosy with them.
So a joyride does not sound strange to me at all, a lot of stranger things have been done by NSFs. But it is a very stupid idea no less.
But I certianly don't buy the story about the car looking abandoned. No one simply abandons a car with the keys and all in a drivable condition in the middle of nowhere. Your brother should have radioed for help and attempted to manage the person's condition... assuming he was telling the truth to begin with. How the entire detail ran out of water is another thing hard to believe. I trained in Thailand where it hit 46 degress but we never came close to running out of water.
Even if he did want to take the car, he should have radioed his intentions to begin with (hence shifting the responsibility of that choice away). Unless his coms were down...
But of course, that is besides the point. The whole idea of if you are going to do something that is probably going to have serious consequences in the SAF... is best not to get caught at all in the first place.