Does NS hinder job prospects for Singaporeans?
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WHEN I started business in the motor trade a couple of years ago, I was surprised that many companies are reluctant to employ Singaporeans for several reasons. One of the main ones is that most male Singaporeans have to serve two to three weeks' reservist training every year.
As a Singaporean, I understandably want to support my own people and give our men an opportunity. So my company went against the grain by employing one permanent resident and one Singaporean where most other companies go with PRs.
Both were equally hard working and resourceful. However, the Singaporean had in-camp training and when he failed his individual physical proficiency test (IPPT), he had to go for further training which meant that he had to leave work early. No such thing with PRs.
Although the Government reimburse the employee during reservist training, a company employs someone because of his contribution to its profitability. Does the Government take loss of business into consideration?
Small companies do not have the financial strength to bear the loss. Does this mean male Singaporeans can work only in large companies?
I wonder if the career Singapore Armed Forces officers who plan training programmes empathise with the difficulties male Singaporeans face in getting as well as retaining jobs - especially now with the greater influx of immigrants. Have they gone overboard with their planning? Do First World countries like Germany and Switzerland have similar durations in their national service and reservist training? Rather than two or three weeks' reservist training, can it be reduced to one week or less?
To Singaporean employers, the inconvenience and loss of business due to the disruption tilt the scales to favour PRs instead of Singaporeans. The survivability of the company may force us to pick PRs the next time we look for an employee.
My son will do his NS at the end of the year. When he finishes his NS, will he face this problem when he looks for a job?
Sylvester Lim Teck Hee
(Straits Times 20 Nov) -
YA ICT sucks , my ict is to do duty , 2hrs shift 1 day work 1 day off , i am trying very very hard to siam my ict , siam onces liao , 31st Jan another one .. need to get memo from doctor liao
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it doesnt.
it is not like he is the only one serving NS in singapore.
pregnant women are now facing a bigger dilemma. -
yes and no....
mass who work ~ yes (more so if work in SMC) but still happily go for ICT....
minority who work but for himself ~ no and he happily send in his deferment....
x
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actually the author's experiences doesn't necessary means all singaporeans males faces this problem. namely not everyone's ICTs are 2 or 3 weeks. some don't even get called up for years. secondly i believe not all companies are inflexible or so lack of manpower that the whole operation will fail to run if one person is not around. perhaps what the company can do is to do some reorganization to better manage its staff.
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Germans currently serve a direct 9 months.3 months basic training and then a further 9months in unit.Then that's it for them.No reservists.
They can do so either in a civil or military capacity.Promotion in the military abv 2 ranks can mean an extention i think.Also volunteers can extend service time.
The swiss serve 260 days for Non coms and 300 days for comissioned personal.
some can serve the full term at 1 short.However most have to do basic training of 3 months i think then serve the remaining days out in slots of 3-4weeks or until he is 34.Failure to serve means a 3% personal income tax increase.
i'll check out how the companies cope. -
the coy will not fail to run as a whole... it just slow down on some ops, lost some man hours, man days, profits etc... and for that poor guy... if he is lucky, after ICT he will OT + OT + OT + OT +++++... that is lucky, if not he may find that he is out of jobOriginally posted by Gordonator:actually the author's experiences doesn't necessary means all singaporeans males faces this problem. namely not everyone's ICTs are 2 or 3 weeks. some don't even get called up for years. secondly i believe not all companies are inflexible or so lack of manpower that the whole operation will fail to run if one person is not around. perhaps what the company can do is to do some reorganization to better manage its staff.
as for manage it staff??? IMO, we have the worst HR in the world. (refering to all local coys be it SMC or GLC and those MNCs which had been in here for 10 to 20 odd years and the HR pax is pure pick IC holder. )
(Out Of Point on why worst HR. HR dun engage ppl with the right skill but the right pay that the coy is going to pay for...) -
To add on, the armed force is not that rigid as well, produce a good reason for not able to attend ICT. The army will also let u deferred. During ICT, if ur company requires u for an emergency, the CO usually will close one eye and let u go back for the company to settle then come back. Personally, I seen cases where the CO allow his men to book out everyday during the ICT just to let them settle their job or allow them to attend their part-time courses.Originally posted by Gordonator:actually the author's experiences doesn't necessary means all singaporeans males faces this problem. namely not everyone's ICTs are 2 or 3 weeks. some don't even get called up for years. secondly i believe not all companies are inflexible or so lack of manpower that the whole operation will fail to run if one person is not around. perhaps what the company can do is to do some reorganization to better manage its staff.
Remember, the whole NS unit, all officers, WOSEs including ur NS CO are also reservist, they are more understanding and are flexible when it comes to ur job outside compare to NSF period. -
Of course it affects... If they company can manage without you, then they don't really need you.
The company hire people to work for them. Its not about the pay, its about the productivity. If I am the employer I sure choose FT. No need to send them back for reservist. No real advantages of choosing a citizen over a FT so why not? -
all i can say is this:
if i was a boss, i would employ the foreigner everything equal for the simple reason that one hires for the work to be done and for the employee to be there. Between an employee that works 200 days and 214 days a year at the same rate of course i pick the 214 days.
pity and understand the nsmen and the requirements but still, a business is a business -
I think the writer is probably more concerned about getting his son off NS than whether NS is a hindrance to job prospects.
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No i think he's asking if any good will come out of hiring a local citizen then a FT.And is asking us for advice on how we think the government can help make hiring locals more attractive.Originally posted by sillyme:I think the writer is probably more concerned about getting his son off NS than whether NS is a hindrance to job prospects.
Anyway other then Israel,the other nations with conscription seem to either have no or limited reservists duties.Even if they did have reservists duties it's so infrequent that it doesnt really affect them that much. -
If you have an employee workforce of 500, you can make adjustments for the loss of 2 employees to ICT without any problems. If you run a small business with 5 employees, you cannot afford to lose even 1.
So what if you have months of notice about the upcoming overseas ICT stint that will last 4 weeks? Are you going to hire a part-timer, train him for 2 weeks to cover a job for 4 weeks? Is anyone willing to take such a job?
I think people who fail IPPT repeatedly and have to go for RT are more disruptive. They have to leave early and are not able to do overtime....if you are going to employ Singaporeans, exclude those who cannot pass IPPT -
worse still if the guy is fat n unfit n cant pass ippt n have to keep attending RT RT RT RT RT....imagine after work have to rush off to some faraway place to attend RT for a few hours, den by the time reach home so shagged already den next day still have to wake up early work... n oso will miss out on spending time wif family or dining out wif colleagues
fark it!!! ccb la.. -
If u are the employer of a small company,will u prefer to hire employees who does not need to spend time on icts,ippt or employees who are pes E,PR or females?
Maybe the govt should also compensate to the company as well when nsman is off for ICT,but then this will not solve the problem also,so bo bian LL we nsman just have to work harder to prove to our bosses loh,what to do. -
And who's freakin' fault issit when you fail IPPT? If you're lazy you pay the price. Simple as that.Originally posted by Stooky:worse still if the guy is fat n unfit n cant pass ippt n have to keep attending RT RT RT RT RT....imagine after work have to rush off to some faraway place to attend RT for a few hours, den by the time reach home so shagged already den next day still have to wake up early work... n oso will miss out on spending time wif family or dining out wif colleagues
fark it!!! ccb la.. -
hanor ,either dat or migrateOriginally posted by Obersturmfuhrer:And who's freakin' fault issit when you fail IPPT? If you're lazy you pay the price. Simple as that. fark off frm dis cty,only for elites -
Actually, sometimes MINDEF does a little "loophole" for example they call you back on the Febuary 07 for a high key exercise and they can call you back again in November 07 for another high key exercise.
This is because their work year is from May of current year till the April of the next year.
So if you get two call back per year don't be surprised lol
But frankly which employer would enjoy having their staff to be not in office for 6 weeks per year... and do you know what type of piling of paper work and you know what when you get back from ICT.... 1 week is bad enough 3 is gonna kill ya... but MINDEF does not understand this problem but they are good enough to reduce the number of cycles to less at leasst there is some improvement there right?
This NS thing is not only hinders the prospect imagine 2 years of degree course the ladies are doing ahead of you you are label a loser when you hit the books again cause you lose touch with them and these ladies graduate 2 years ahead of you if you are lucky 30% gets married and pregnent the other 70% gets 2 year of job experience ahead of you. If they do, do well in terms of performance you have just might have a lady boss on top of you.
So of course it does affect the job prospect of the males in Singapore and for the record the extra 100-200 pay we get is not worth the two years we spend serving the country... not that I'n not loyal its just that of what its worth it seems really worthless. And ladies are complaining we are getting these extra allowance at workplace and some are crying foul.
If someone highs up see these please do something about it get the ladies involved in NS as well we need the NURSES, teachers... and serve the two years as well so the can have the same equal treatment they want so badly. But it doesn't seem fair right ladies... well life isn't. I'm no sexist its just you ladies complain we guys get more pay... better advance standing when we go to uni stuff please be a bit fair for the two years of ahead time you have over us -
GO CHAO GENG GET PES E OR F DEN NO NEED GO FOR RESERBIT LA.... WAH KAO NINAHIA stop complaining la
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YA !!!! NS NOT ONLY AFFECT OUR JOB AND ALSO OUR CPF INCOME TO BUY HOUSe... !!!
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Then women can also complain of sexist policies in which companies may chose to employ men. Maternity leave up to 3 months is significant to any one company.
It means a cost to companies and yet no contribution. -
SO Afterall, We guys still the one who suffer. So girls, u should pay more for the flat after marriage..
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No lah,girls also have their "monthly" problem,given a choice of serving the stupid army or suffer every month,i rather serve and fxx off(including the stupid reservist which i am doing now),i think this type of thing compare also no use loh.I mean we guys are already wasting our two and a half years of youth(excluding reservist),why drag the girls along,seeing them serving also does not mean we can be better off or feel better right.Originally posted by thelesis:SO Afterall, We guys still the one who suffer. So girls, u should pay more for the flat after marriage..
The conclusion is ,if u really HATE ICT,NS,etc,just work hard ,earn more money,be rich,migrate hahahaa
Poor people like us,just LL serve finish the 2 and a half years of the NSF liability as well as the stupid reservist loh hahaa. -
if a company cannot even release their staffs for ICTs, does that means one cannot even take leave and MCs as well?
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even not all are like tat must also tink abt those who got affected... we may tink oh too bad u are the 1 gonna die... boohoo.... but if we were him we will feel like shit... cannot find job, cannot progress, cannot get married.... but certainly i feel there should be something like a ruling tat companies must hv at least 30-50% of sg or else pay $1k per foreigner... or else guys suay suay can only drive taxi, sweep floor, sell insurance, n all the dirty jobs.... but too bad the PTB dun give a shit since they still get to their bonus yearly...Originally posted by Gordonator:actually the author's experiences doesn't necessary means all singaporeans males faces this problem. namely not everyone's ICTs are 2 or 3 weeks. some don't even get called up for years. secondly i believe not all companies are inflexible or so lack of manpower that the whole operation will fail to run if one person is not around. perhaps what the company can do is to do some reorganization to better manage its staff.