Pia kias and ah beng overunned guards and chiong into camp?
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har har har, veri funnyOriginally posted by iveco:Is the TS a clown from the 1970s?
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what happen in the end? Who won, the police or commando? Why was commando NS man in police station? Maybe he got drunk and thought police station was his bunk?Originally posted by zaxis:then what about the incident
Commando surrounding Joo chiat Police station
demand release of commando NS man?
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Did u read the recent news about the revamped Spore Air Force? Precision bombing techniques. Nowadays if got pai kia chiong into camp, DO can just call in the F-15 Strike Eagle to do precision bombing. Thats why Spore Air Force bought these new airplanes recently.
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no lah... a 5.56 round cost much less then a LGB....
Ok. Let us take a poll, how many of you are SURE that the SAF will back you up if you shoot somebody who is "breaking into" your camp?
What if after the smoke is cleared, it turns out that the guy is a mental case and doesn't obey instruction to stop.... and not really a terrorist and gangster creating trouble... and the people running behind him in the camp are trying to apprehend him instead of being his gang members?
Will the NSF or NSmen or the DO and specialists be charged???
I think this is very important, if I am not SURE that the SAF can back me up, if there are problems, I will try to siam and not get involved...and be physically someplace that I didn't hear or see the commotion.....
Let me use an example.... the APV that collide with merchant ship..... the RSN officers were charged... even though they make an honest mistake, it is not as if they delibrately drive their ship into another ship!
So if a RP or a NSF on guard duty make a "mistake", will the SAF back him up or the civilian court charge him for "manslaugther". -
SAF backing us up? Not very likely... But then they'll still get you if something happened to the camp and you didn't take action.
Usually one would try to apprehend the person breaking in through non violent means... force is only used when the person is resisting or acting aggressively. Deadily force is only applied when there is a serious threat to life or property... for example... according to the ROE it's justified to cap somebody who who see planting a bomb or trying to set fire to something... but only after one has challanged and confirmed the situtation.
In any case, the use of firearms is a very serious matter and one can expect them to pick it to the bone... can you imagine the paperwork and investigation? Also, what if you cap somebody and it turns out to be a misunderstanding? -
1st round fire and all is over !!! You think still have to fight ? all will surrender already.Originally posted by dork3d:These people think that we can anyhow fire our weapon meh... Moreover we have only five rounds to shoot... If we pah jiao, we will have to resort to bayonet fighting...
By right, any argument or confrontation should be done behind the locked gate... Should the situation turns ugly, police assistance can be sought...
Even if the guard com failed in his duty, the 2IC should be taking up that role...
Unless someone can prove the instance's genuinity, it's unlikely for the situation stated to happen...
It's no joke to drink coffee at SIB and SAFPU for at least three weeks... -
impossible 1 la..
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I have not heard about the armour camp or 1 SIR story but it is possible if the incidents happened in the days 70's and 80's.Originally posted by Urroh:impossible 1 la..
(1) A true story, during BMT in 1982 or 83 i believe. It was during my brother's parent's visiting day in Nee Soon camp. My parents and brother withnessed a group of armed (with parangs and steel bars) gangsters went into camp to settle an old debt. At that time, most bengs are enlisted in Nee Soon camp while A level batch enlisted in Tekong. Common to have fights in the coffee shop outside the old guardroom.
Anyway, the guards and guard comm, under the instruction of the DO (maybe higher authority?!?!?) ran away from the guardroom with their rifles and ammo fearing that the gangsters may grab their rifles. Chaotic! family, NSF alike running around for cover.
(2) Another story, happened at night in 1984 i think. Old Commando camp, gangsters entered the camp too. Old camp was quite open on top of a hill. Don't have the details cos my brother didn't say much.
Having heard these first hand stories, i strongly believe similar incidents may have happened during those days.
Having served as a DO in the mid 90's, i was certainly not trained or briefed to handle crowd control. Guards are more concerned not to lose thier live ammo (you guys know what i mean) The group of transvettes tried forcefully to enter my camp once (2am if i remember), apparently under the invitation of a staff sgt. Guardcomm panicked big time and the guardroom totally lost control. Thank fully they were not armed, not even with a half dick haha.
Anyway, good old days, I strongly believe camp are much better protected these days. -
Alright, but what about if you do not shoot to kill? Fire 1 round to serve as warning, if they still approach, take disabling shots rather then try be a sniper and take head shots?
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Practise Intruder Driller for fark ah?
Anyway, dun open gate can liao, how they come in. I believe you cock the rifle they ball shrink liao... Anyway nowadays the batons in the guardroom very power one. Should go and see see, is metal and long long.
But then firing is a different thing. Don't think anyone want to jeopardise their future -
wtf is wrong with these people? shld be punished both with civilian and military law.Originally posted by zaxis:then what about the incident
Commando surrounding Joo chiat Police station
demand release of commando NS man? -
wow..sounds serious...issit real?
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in this case , they are not suppose to fire , under the ROE , they must try to pin them down using baton/rifle .
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Intruder drill? LOL! Yeah, I know of more than 1 camp that had live practice before.
The story in brief, Snakeheads [anic and started dropping off illegal immigrants near/ at particular SAF camps, telling them that was Singapore.
The chaos that ensued was quite funny... seeing guard duty personnel chasing the illegal immigrants, 1 with hand clutching their rifle and screaming "Mai Zao!" at the same time.
As for Ah Bengs running into camp with hostile intent. I would say it depends on the "threat level." I'm sure in event of such a breach, the guard comd and DO would sure order the men to load, ready and fix bayonets.
ROE and common sense definitely applies. If an Ah Beng with a parang is standing there, of course, cannot shoot and must shout for him to surrender. If the Ah Beng is charging u (assuming your alone) with his parang, screw bayonet fighting, aim at legs and fire.
At any point of time, must use the minimal level of force / harm inflicted, to preserve other SAF Personnel, property and oneself. As long as the level of force, lethal or not cannot be justified, don't use lor. -
(ignito)
NSFs no mental conditioning, especially in the past. And now, worse, all so obedient.. Who dare to do anything unless black and white, plus guarantee with stamp along with loads of alcohol in the brain.
right loh. nowadays, SG army folks all guai-guai one, even regulars. in my NS experience 2 years ago, everyone in my camp are very wary of getting charged or loaded with extra duties.......haiz.......no guts.
somemore, there's a lot of red-tape in the SAF nowadays.....sometimes i feel it's more like a commercial entity than anything. paper work is even more than the actual training......
(SG Tyrannosaur)But it's quite clear wat, when I was on guard com and I see some pia kias trying to enter the camp (assuming they can even get past the locked gate), I'll just turn out the guards and do riot drill, form a line of shields and batons with the shooters behind, call the DO, activate police loh.
why need to activate police? if you do, then it means you don't have the confidence to fight despite all the tekong training. somemore, when fighting terrorists/foreign invades, can call police one meh?
(norm)Did u read the recent news about the revamped Spore Air Force? Precision bombing techniques. Nowadays if got pai kia chiong into camp, DO can just call in the F-15 Strike Eagle to do precision bombing. Thats why Spore Air Force bought these new airplanes recently.
no lah.....SG so small......even precision bombing will cause area-explosion and damage the camp itself....how can? somemore, later the top army brass people will charge you for vandalising and destroying SAF property. DB liao.
(spencer)I think this is very important, if I am not SURE that the SAF can back me up, if there are problems, I will try to siam and not get involved...and be physically someplace that I didn't hear or see the commotion.....
u think if you shoot and kill somebody and land yourself in the 1st page of Straits Times, the SAF and PAP will back you up(or at least defend) meh?
the paper generals all will siam like crazy; their reputation and career will not be tainted. however, you and your Guard COM/DO/OC/2IC/CO will get the crap instead.
last time got commando getting killed and got into coma after his head was dunked into water by the commando trainers. the chief commando officer(COL) was sacked, but those star-generals leh? i thought they're supposed to be in charge of the army as they've the titles of Chief of Army etc....how come the slate so clean? or perhaps in SG, the titles of Chief of Army, Chief of DF, Chief of Navy etc....all for ceremonial purposes?
(tchiew)Anyway, the guards and guard comm, under the instruction of the DO (maybe higher authority?!?!?) ran away from the guardroom with their rifles and ammo fearing that the gangsters may grab their rifles. Chaotic! family, NSF alike running around for cover.
siao! last time the army regulars all very tough and fierece one, how come still can grab rifles and flee......in No. 4 battle uniform somemore??!!!
if last these tough guys can take rifles and flee when facing pai kias, now modern times how? army guys wet their No. 4 pants lah, and kenna charge by OC/RSM the next day for insulting SAF uniform????!!!!!!!!Guards are more concerned not to lose thier live ammo (you guys know what i mean) The group of transvettes tried forcefully to enter my camp once (2am if i remember), apparently under the invitation of a staff sgt. Guardcomm panicked big time and the guardroom totally lost control. Thank fully they were not armed, not even with a half dick haha.
one thing i noticed about SG army is that they're overly concerned about rounds and don't dare to fire when it's needed. it's like, losing one bullet will kill the whole holy government and country like that.....then when real war comes how? do we still have the time to sign in, sign out, stock-take the ammos? then our planes/tanks also need to carry clerks inside to record the number of rounds/missles/shells fired also is it? when battlion chiong to fight real war, got side-kicks to record the rounds fired and update the armskote accordingly also?
(shotgun)At any point of time, must use the minimal level of force / harm inflicted, to preserve other SAF Personnel, property and oneself. As long as the level of force, lethal or not cannot be justified, don't use lor.
that's total rubbish. in real war, how do u use mininal level of force? that means, you wait for terrorists/invaders to fire at you, you block the shot, then fire back 1 round(cannot waste too much precious SAF bullets mah!), they block and fire 3 rounds, then you fire 2 rounds, they shoot rocket launcher, then you throw smoke bomb and fire 1 round? KNN! overseas armies all chiong one loh. their idea is "go into battle and take down the enemy regardless of how much it takes" instead of "go into battle and take down the enemy using as little ammo as possible and if possible, save all ammo as you've to do paper work later".
haiz......read in the news a few days back about the british army. one of their comrades kenna shot by terrorists. the rest of his fellow army mates all go berserk and defy army orders. they get into the Apache, strap themselves on the wings of the copter, and all chiong into the enemy base and succeded.
by right cannot strap people onto wings of apache, but they are real men and don't care liao.
if it's SG army in the same scenario, then the soldiers will ask platoon SGT, and platoon SGT will ask platoon commander, platoon commander will seek 2IC advice and 2IC will ask OC. OC will then consult Base 2IC and Base 2IC report to CO. CO will do some paper work and feedback to top brass paper generals. paper generals sit in office and do real paper work.....haiz.... -
Frankly I doubt the pai kia and ah beng can really do anything significant... needn't to see about incident like this... If I'm the Guard com I'll activate the riot drill...
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Army is meant to defend against foreign enemies.
When source of disturbance is foreign, like foreign enemy, foreign terrorist, foreign infiltrators, foreign forces, then the army will use bullets to defend against them.
But when the source come from within, like gangsters, pai kia, transvestites, then the army will step aside, and the police will be called in.
Police is meant to tackle local elements. -
quote:Guards are more concerned not to lose thier live ammo (you guys know what i mean) The group of transvettes tried forcefully to enter my camp once (2am if i remember), apparently under the invitation of a staff sgt. Guardcomm panicked big time and the guardroom totally lost control. Thank fully they were not armed, not even with a half dick haha.
It's easy to say "I will shoot the crap out of them if it was me!" but if your career, future or reputation is on the line, will you be so sure that it will be still the same? You can never truly understand how one feels in that situation unless you have been in one before.
one thing i noticed about SG army is that they're overly concerned about rounds and don't dare to fire when it's needed. it's like, losing one bullet will kill the whole holy government and country like that.....then when real war comes how? do we still have the time to sign in, sign out, stock-take the ammos? then our planes/tanks also need to carry clerks inside to record the number of rounds/missles/shells fired also is it? when battlion chiong to fight real war, got side-kicks to record the rounds fired and update the armskote accordingly also?
You keep saying "if real war come how?". We wait for real war to come first loh... This is not real war, Pai Kias or ah guas try to get into an army camp is much more different from a real war. Also you quoted a member and say something along the line where "call police for what? ... means you're not capable of handling the situation". I want to ask you arh.. if you dun call police how? Even after you pin them down you want do what? End up still have to hand over to police... like as if u can keep them in DB liddat... =,=
If I were the guards, I would not have fired any rounds too even if they were armed. (Unless they start climbing over the closed gate den different story.) Handing such situation over to the police is the best. OH and btw if you try to say something like "in war can call police meh?", my only reply for you is to use some logic and common sense. This is not any terrorist case, there is no need for us to expand rifle rounds when such case can be easily solved by the police. -
LOL. Combat clerks recording down the number of rounds u expend during war? WTF! I can just imagine. If we lose, then goodbye to our sovereignty. But if we win......
"WHOLE LOT GRAB UR HELMET AND PICK UP THOSE CARTRIDGES, YOU ALL WILL NOT FALL OUT UNTIL EVERY SINGLE CARTRIDGE IS ACCOUNTED FOR!" -
its either u haven served ur ns yet , or u never read THE ROE thru out ur ns life before.Originally posted by Nikar2:(ignito)
that's total rubbish. in real war, how do u use mininal level of force? that means, you wait for terrorists/invaders to fire at you, you block the shot, then fire back 1 round(cannot waste too much precious SAF bullets mah!), they block and fire 3 rounds, then you fire 2 rounds, they shoot rocket launcher, then you throw smoke bomb and fire 1 round? KNN! overseas armies all chiong one loh. their idea is "go into battle and take down the enemy regardless of how much it takes" instead of "go into battle and take down the enemy using as little ammo as possible and if possible, save all ammo as you've to do paper work later".
haiz......read in the news a few days back about the british army. one of their comrades kenna shot by terrorists. the rest of his fellow army mates all go berserk and defy army orders. they get into the Apache, strap themselves on the wings of the copter, and all chiong into the enemy base and succeded.
by right cannot strap people onto wings of apache, but they are real men and don't care liao.
if it's SG army in the same scenario, then the soldiers will ask platoon SGT, and platoon SGT will ask platoon commander, platoon commander will seek 2IC advice and 2IC will ask OC. OC will then consult Base 2IC and Base 2IC report to CO. CO will do some paper work and feedback to top brass paper generals. paper generals sit in office and do real paper work.....haiz....
for ur infor , example , in iraq , MOST of the overseas soldiers u talking abt went into the battle with the orders of "only shoot when u r shot at" . unless u r dealing with a official army , then thats a different case. under the ROE , good guys always on the losing end.
and nope , those british soldiers did not defy any orders.
and nope , by right they can be strapped on to the attachment of the wings in times of emergencies. and this is not the 1st time soldiers strapped themselves on it , juz that its not reported. -
it is never easy when
1. handling the public
2. the threat is not clear, esp when posed by fellow citizens -
Frankly, the bottomline is that I believe that the Singapore Armed Forces (Navy, Airforce, espcially Army) AND the Government will not support you. The newspapers will make a mockery of you. a country is made up of both its citizens and government. In this case, I am VERY sure both will not support you.
If your country is not going to stand behind you, I will not stand and fight for my country.
Call me a coward/traitor, anything you want, but I will not do anything unless the President comes and asks me to shoot.
I have lost much faith in the Singapore Army and government. I am probably the worst soldier the SAF will want to see. -
You're not the only one.. I have seen lots with the same mindset with you. Don't blame yourself, blame SAF.
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(chan)
KNN sia! i fully whole-heartedly support you and your thoughts! but one point i disagree with you is : if the president ask me to shoot, i also won't shoot.
Call me a coward/traitor, anything you want, but I will not do anything unless the President comes and asks me to shoot.
I have lost much faith in the Singapore Army and government. I am probably the worst soldier the SAF will want to see.
here, the president is merely of ceremonial status(sign documents, endorse parties, an ambassador to foreign countries, attend social events etc...) haiz...... -
Lol. Nikar2 is either really a pre-enlistee, or a troll.
Advice: Wait til u read ur first ROE card from the SAF before posting this kinda nonsense.
We are talking about ah bengs and pai kias with at best metal clubs and parangs, u wanna compare with terrorists with RPGs. (in ur fantasy world known as ROCKET LAUNCHER)
We talk about apples, u compare with orange juice. Apple can just put in plastic bag, and u talk about orange juice must pour in glass or cup or else will spill.
Hokkien got 1 saying, "One East, One West."
Chinese got another, "Chicken talk, Duck Speak."
You think all of the SAF personnel won't dare to squeeze the trigger when we really need to? U're wrong. As guard duty personnel, failure to perform functions in order to safeguard SAF property or personnel without a justifiable reason is a chargeable offense as well. So how?
Just to entertain you. If a dumbass decides to stop outside the camp gate, brandish a gun, he'll be fair game if he does not comply with the guard personnel's instructions as well.
An incident that happened a long time ago. Grass cutters sneaked into the camp on a sunday to cut grass cos the workers were illegal overstayers. When the camp guards responded, they were orderd to load, cock and safe. Front buggers even had bayonets attached. Why? Cos the DO considers the grass cutting equipment to be a potential weapon as well.
An Army is an organization that functions on orders. All our asses are covered by "orders." If we are ordered to shoot by a superior officer, and the order is legal, we'd better shoot or else we are the ppl who will be in trouble.