MINDEF/ SAF Senior Commanders
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As far as I'm concerned, he's earned that MG rank.Originally posted by KoolKool:I think General Tan is BG. MG was a local rank for the deployment. Deploying Gen Tan with a temporary rank and then reverting him back to BG upon his return does not speak very well of our leaders. Was wondering why they did not deploy a future CDF, so he can be someone we can associate with as an experienced soldier.
Being Task Force Commander says a lot more than commanding a Division in the SAF. -
In civilian the very basic different is that you are not putting your man in fatality. In the back of your mind you know your man will show up to work the most they get fire from the job.
While in the military. Men die under commanding decision, the burdern of command Kicks in. Human factor kicks in. It is hard to know the Performance of a leadership without having to experience all these factors.
In the first desert storm, a fellow classmate of mine was called up from the marine reserve. His father bought him a .45 pistol, perharps his last gift to his son.
The stress of unknown and the emotion involved are a huge factors I like to see how our general perform under intense stress.
An outside person who wrote an article does not necessary mean they understand the history of Singapore, and may not hit every point. But on the military leadership. I think he hit home run. -
Wouldn't it be more accurate to attribute the success of Op Flying Eagle to Col. Tan Chuan Jin and the men/women who served under him. (based on a search on the Internet) Incidentally, Col. Tan is also a Sandhurst trained officer and therefore probably a SAF Overseas Scholar.Originally posted by IAF:We must give credit where it is due. Though i must admit that he could be mistaken for Kim Jong Il's first cousin, the current/outgoing CDF was also responsible for successfully pulling off Op Flying Eagle - the most challenging and massive rapid deployment by SAF to date. That does speak volumes about the quality of the military leadership - scholars or not
It is great to know of such caliber-ed people in our military. -
Perhaps you could enlighten us with a modern day example of a general that did well in Harvard and also not at West Point. Most of the top US generals or UK generals came from the top military schools of their current, that being West Point and Sandhurst.Originally posted by nightzip:I dun agree with this type of old school of think tank thinking.
Who says someone who thrives at Harvard would not thrive at West Point?
And i dont consider some of the US generals world class in the first place.
A very good rugby player can also be a very good footballer. My own example is....can a very good singer be a very good actor? Many HK singers are very good actors too.
I am not saying that the same set of attributes/skills thrive for both academic and military. I am only rebutting the pointless argument made by the US soldier on the saying that young soldiers cannot be good generals.
I would say that old generals are out-dated rather.
Whereas young soldiers can be good generals, as it is, booting out generals just because they are young is a stupid policy. -
well i do admit modern day excamples are alittle harder to come by, but seriously age is relative and not really a benchmark of skill or ability.Originally posted by vaxjunior:Interesting point.
But these maybe "outliers" or exceptions to the point. For every Ariel or Napoleon there are many "young generals" who are handicapped not by capabilities but by experience. Scientific studies have shown that improved outcomes come from learning by experience. Albeit, there is a tradeoff in that after a point, experience may also constrain one's capabilities by blindsiding you. So the key here is to maintain a balance of young highly competent staff officers and experienced generals. Highly effective generals are those who are able to temper their experience with youth energy and enthuasiasm. The current SAF structure loses the experience factor.
Would someone correct me - but was Winston Choo a "scholar" and how long did he take to reach LT Gen? he is one person in the SAF (retired now) that I fully respect. Further, his "physical" presence does bring some pride to the entire institution. The current CDF severely lacks that and frankly when I saw him finally in person, I really felt abit awkward that "this guy" is our Chief.
What do i mean?The black prince Edward the 2nd i think was 20 plus when he went rampaging all over France and kicked it's ass.
Alexander the Great (mind u,he stuided under some of the world's best tutors of his time) was in his early 30's when he DIED
Heck up until recently even Generals who were over 50 were considered old
General Rommel 53 when he was made FIELD MARSHAL. Same with General Walter Model who was made captain at 26 and major general at 40ish.
How then do these outstanding people help prove that age is of no barrier? Well other then the 2 ww2 examples the rest lived in an age where the average age was 30-40 meaning most Generals didnt make it pass 40 haha.
The other 2 examples simply show that some US Generals at age 60+++ are way way old.
Anyway about west point.......Sure Patton was from west point,Omar Bradley to.But arent u forgetting Custer(finished LAST in his class IIRC) was also from there?For ever Patton there will be a Custer.
Alot of countries use academic results as a bench mark for being an Officer and then both results AND service record.
Do u know how hard it is to get into westpoint to earn your freaking degree from there? Imagine having to study for your degree while serving NS and still not fail or risk getting booted out. By that reckoning they had already weeded out quite abit of people.
All through time some of the greatest Generals were also very well read. Even the Great Khan was well read for his erm.......background.(his mother tutored him alittle so he wasnt all brawn)
Napoleon studied at some of the top French military schools of his time.(At that time there was no such thing as a scholarship,at most a sponsor.)His was paid by his family who were richer then the average person hah.
But like always there are exceptions to the norm and there will always be useless scholars(in terms of leadership) and bloody brillient people who didnt really study. -
Is it correct say that an SAF Scholar would rise to a minimum rank of LTC no matter how cock up he might be? I once served under a Scholar who was academically brilliant ,his planning and tactics were just as good as any other top brass but if you put him in a jungle he would be like a fish out of water.I dont think he made General,although I wish he did he is with the PAP now
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Indeed, Col Tan CJ was SAF's point man in Meulaboh, which took a big chunk of Flying's Eagle's resources. And from what i've read, he provided solid and exemplary leadership.Originally posted by vaxjunior:Wouldn't it be more accurate to attribute the success of Op Flying Eagle to Col. Tan Chuan Jin and the men/women who served under him. (based on a search on the Internet) Incidentally, Col. Tan is also a Sandhurst trained officer and therefore probably a SAF Overseas Scholar.
It is great to know of such caliber-ed people in our military.
At the same time, there was another major deployment to Phuket. As the overall commander, the CDF was responsible for marshaling the available resources of SAF at his disposal to successfully accomplish the mission. So the buck stops with him
Viewed from another angle, one can say that SAF's swift and decisive response is actually the 'fruit' of constant military readiness and high level of defense capability. No prize from guessing who is responsible for ensuring that as well
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Not all SAF Sandhurst or West Point or US Navy Academy Annapolis are SAFOS. There is an ATA scholarship for that purpose.
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Hmm, Well, if Singpaore wants to be famous, I think it is time that there should be a Military college/University built for this purpose.
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R u from CDO? 
r u sure on ur claims?
malay as CDO does exist but once in a blue moon, you can see 1 malay CDO once every 5 yrs - 6yrs but they are sure deployed to be in charge of non-senstitve tasks. Family background and etc will still be check before they are allow to be rope in as CDO trainne.
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I know of CDO who are malay .... anyway CDO role not very strategic more tactical in nature .... CDO does recon and strike mission in the front line ... they dun hold sensitive info as signal, etc
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[/b][/quote]Originally posted by honour & glory:R u from CDO?
r u sure on ur claims?
malay as CDO does exist but once in a blue moon, you can see 1 malay CDO once every 5 yrs - 6yrs but they are sure deployed to be in charge of non-senstitve tasks. Family background and etc will still be check before they are allow to be rope in as CDO trainne.
Doesnt matter who you are all family background is being screened before you go to NS.NS commando is no big deal so no need to make a drama out of it.
Ranger lead the way!
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I know of CDO who are malay .... anyway CDO role not very strategic more tactical in nature .... CDO does recon and strike mission in the front line ... they dun hold sensitive info as signal, etc -
Doesnt matter who you are all family background is being screened before you go to NS.NS commando is no big deal so no need to make a drama out of it.
Ranger lead the way!
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So u mean the NS commandos and Full time Commandos have diffrent roles?
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The exCDF is an exception, where you didn't have to have brawn to be a good planner.Originally posted by IAF:Indeed, Col Tan CJ was SAF's point man in Meulaboh, which took a big chunk of Flying's Eagle's resources. And from what i've read, he provided solid and exemplary leadership.
At the same time, there was another major deployment to Phuket. As the overall commander, the CDF was responsible for marshaling the available resources of SAF at his disposal to successfully accomplish the mission. So the buck stops with him
Viewed from another angle, one can say that SAF's swift and decisive response is actually the 'fruit' of constant military readiness and high level of defense capability. No prize from guessing who is responsible for ensuring that as well -
Yes,in the SAF there is a big difference between a regular soldier and a NS man.In a combat unit all officers and men go through the same training no one gets special treatment or is excluded from a mission because of race or religion........at least that was what I remember.If there is a slightest doubt about somebody on security reasons,he wouldnt even be posted to that unit or be serving the SAF as a consript.People like Honor & Glory should stop talking cock and feed wrong information to people who are waiting to join the SAF or maybe he should really join the Cdo for honor and glory to find out things for himself.Originally posted by acwire_2125:So u mean the NS commandos and Full time Commandos have diffrent roles? -
why are we being trained in jungle warfare? who is going to war in jungle?
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[quote]Originally posted by bladez87:
why are we being trained in jungle warfare? who is going to war in jungle?[/quote
The Terrain in South East Asia is mostly tropical rainforest -lah where got concrete jungle only? Besides got no sand for concrete
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As much as some overzealous guerrilla groups think fighting in a jungle is manly, the fact is, once the urban centres are taken, you don't have anything left to fight for. This is of course true when it comes to M'sia. However, Indonesia is too large to bother to fight over. So if they go the forest to hide, I think it is time to tolerate some haze and unleash thermobaric weapons.
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Guerrilla groups when downed but not completely knocked out can really be a pest and a cancerous element.Look at GAM before in Acheh now PULO in Patani Thailand their job is not to win a war but to stay alive and keep killing.They use the jungle and darkness as their ally where numbers and new equipment dont really count......two or three well trained guys is enough to give hell to a platoon of soldiers.If you are out to exterminate cockcroaches,you must be a trained pest remover(metaphorically speaking) and therefore Jungle training is a must for some.Originally posted by Fingolfin_Noldor:As much as some overzealous guerrilla groups think fighting in a jungle is manly, the fact is, once the urban centres are taken, you don't have anything left to fight for. This is of course true when it comes to M'sia. However, Indonesia is too large to bother to fight over. So if they go the forest to hide, I think it is time to tolerate some haze and unleash thermobaric weapons. -
What you say is true in peactime but in wartime will they change? (NO OFFENCE OKAY!) You really cant tell... I mean, think of this scenario..Originally posted by charleslee:hmm, i feel that modern singaporeans are now mostly quite detached from the country where their ancestors came, so what happened in the past as mentioned by that MP will probably not happen in singapore. that american soldier picked on the malays based on a islam ruling where muslims shouldn't fight with fellow muslims, but i feel that our local muslims will see themselves as singaporean muslims instead of just plainly muslims
i apologise if i sounded too naive
I muslim malay (Singaporean) is fighting with our friendly neighbour (somewhere in the north) It is war and he is afraid of dying... he wonders when he dies if he will go to heaven or hell (Is this how Islam works?)
If he kills a fellow muslim, he goes to hell.... or at least will be punished serverly after he dies (Am I correct anot... if I wrong those who know Islam pls tell me hor)
he doesn't know when he will die. He doesn't know whther he will live after killing the enemy muslim.. Do you think he will dare to pull the trigger?
This is another reason I used to wonder about muslims being in the SAF at all.. I always wondered whether what they felt in peacetime (I can server my country) would transcend to war (can I kill another man?).
I always kept my mouth shut so as not to stir up any problems in Singapore. But I think the people here are sensible enough not to create havoc so I shall put my thoughts here. -
I'm not a Muslim, but from what I've heard from my Muslim friends is that there is no prohibition against killing another Muslim if you are defending yourself and your community. There's many interpretations on what the Ummah(community) is.
Anyway, our schools of Islamic thought are mainly moderate Sunni/Hanafi, if I'm not wrong. -
All (in the same religion) are brothers, all human are brothers.
Some are more brother than the others, that's all ! -
I don't think the Singapore economy can sustain such a schoolOriginally posted by acwire_2125:What I meant was that there is no such institution in Singapore that allows us to enrol in such a military institution from a young age. If you look at US or UK, they do have schools that groom military leaders from ages as young as 10 years old. In Singapore, we need to have a academic cert to even join SAF, that means even less chance of being sent to overseas military academies.
I strongly feel that Singapore should set up a Military school that let people go in after their PSLE and start their military education. From there they will then go into SAF as professional soliders or even become high ranking officers. -
Post edited for inflammatory comments.
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[Off-topic] I just want you all to know that our current CDF tries to trim his weight down. He is not one of those over-bloated China generals who you often see.
[b]We must give credit where it is due. Though i must admit that he could be mistaken for Kim Jong Il's first cousin[/b]
At least, he tries. (It is not wayang for you all to see, he does it somewhere else. Not using army facilities) So don't always condemn him, although I know MG Desmond Kuek is around for you all to compare.
And if you take the time to talk to him in person he is actually very nice and receptive to you. If you really want something done you should talk to him instead of writing in to the Straits Times (which I find ridiculous). He is humble enough to listen to you.