Arty Fire
-
When one talks about damage, then the items being damaged have to be mentioned. A tank round is a direct fire ammunition which other than the chemical energy (HE round tank round is converted into heated molten jet) is used against an armored target, the kinetic energy of the round (or molten metal jet) also contributes to the penetration. If an APFSDS round is used (with a tungsten rod penetrator), then the penetration effect is due mainly to kinetic energy. For a tank round, the objective is to penetrate and destroy and is used against an armored target.Originally posted by chanjyj:I was referring to the 120mm round coming out of tanks (like our upcoming leopards), not the motar.... was wondering why 155mm arty round casues so much more damage than a 120mm tank round.
An artillery round, generally, is used to neutralize an area, targets will mainly be unprotected infantry and soft-skinned vehicles. The fragmentation effect of the round or spread of sub-munitions (bomblets) will be used for the area damage.
Since intended targets and objectives are different indirect fire artillery and direct fire tank rounds are used differently.
Of course, currently, it is possible for IR sensing bomblets of an artillery cargo round to destroy armored vehicles (from top when armor tends to be thinnest). Direct hit of a 155 mm round on the tank will also cause disastrous effect to the vehicle. -
yup... now is 75 x 75 ...Originally posted by Quiet Guy:Arty rounds cant hit on the same spot even 100 rounds is given by a single gun with the same target grid.
factors affect ;
weather, wind, temperature, rounds, gun barrels, re-coil impact of gun, layer, gun sight and many equipment factors.
arty target is always 150 x 150 or 100 x 100 area target. unless is linear target or defensive mission.
sorry, forgot alot of terms used as now MR liao
and the killing radius of a round, so no SPOT is safe within the 150 x 150 area target ( just saw someone mention 75 x 75 )
last time during NSF days, it was 150 x 150.. but for last year's ICT, the trainers from Arty Institute told us that doctrine has been amended to have area target by defined as 75 x 75 -
wah... 22SA... no more leow loh.... u're really a lao chiao!!!Originally posted by Quiet Guy:last time arty family inclued 81mm mortar, 120mm mortar, 160mm mortar, 105mm gun, 155mm gun.
now arty unit is basically 105mm and 155mm gun. all mortar given/pass to infantry
so mortar and gun area target is same and function is same.
i am from last batch 120mm mortar battalion aka former 22SA.
FYI, LG105 mm also no more leow .... only left the 155 mm guns (FH2000, Primus, Pegasus... ) For us reservists, we are using FH88SP -
Ok,I've gotten a rough idea now. But what are the chances of survival of infantry caught in the open during an arty bombardment? Almost nil?
-
for atec :Originally posted by SpecOps87:Ok,I've gotten a rough idea now. But what are the chances of survival of infantry caught in the open during an arty bombardment? Almost nil?
for properly dug-in infantry on a objective
1 estab neutralisation has 30% dmg on them lor
u do 3 X means almost 90%
but seldom coz estab neutralisation uses lotsa of 155s
Caught in the open means sayonara...
still got chance if u run, choose 1 direction n run at least 300m to be safe
"arty arty arty arty arty arty"
rem ? -
Originally posted by Mr_Pink:yup... now is 75 x 75 ...
last time during NSF days, it was 150 x 150.. but for last year's ICT, the trainers from Arty Institute told us that doctrine has been amended to have area target by defined as 75 x 75
first is 150x150 than changed to 100x100 than changed to 150x150..
now is 75x75 ... this is really fire to killed
thanks for the INFO.
-
only saw the 105 twice, once in display during NSF, and one during ict day.Originally posted by Mr_Pink:wah... 22SA... no more leow loh.... u're really a lao chiao!!!
FYI, LG105 mm also no more leow .... only left the 155 mm guns (FH2000, Primus, Pegasus... ) For us reservists, we are using FH88SP
105 looks like very low profile le.
thanks for the info.
CHeers.. -
if lucky can still be alive....... BUT with some body parts missingOriginally posted by SpecOps87:Ok,I've gotten a rough idea now. But what are the chances of survival of infantry caught in the open during an arty bombardment? Almost nil? -
arty fire can hit the same spot right on again again if need . that is because of new technology - which make calculation of wind, speed gun condition... the computer can compensate the changes. Plus there is alway spotter to provide adjustment.
The question is - is there a need to hit the same spot again ? Usually no, arty will want to hit whole area , thus they would want different rounds to fall in different area of a grid so that it is well spread out to do the most damage to the whole area.
If the same spot is hit already, whatever there is already damage, so why waste another rd to hit it again when that round which is so expensive, can be use to hit a new spot .
I do not think usually people will bore to hit it again just hoping to knock out a few foot soldiers who decide to go to a already hit spot, just not worth the round. Unless we are talking about bunkers which is enforced, which the arty will keep on hitting on the same spot till it it taken out. -
thats what i was driving at initially.
Also artillery and other explosive devices not only kill with fragmentation but also the shockwave. Thats what kills mainly. -
i wonder what's this 150x150 or 75x75 in arty terms? what does these mean? and got any difference if target area is changed from one to another? btw for 75m the undersieged infantry can just run out of the killing zone in a jiffy right?Originally posted by Mr_Pink:yup... now is 75 x 75 ...
last time during NSF days, it was 150 x 150.. but for last year's ICT, the trainers from Arty Institute told us that doctrine has been amended to have area target by defined as 75 x 75 -
how artillery bombarbment kills is by lateral spread of fragments, which means that in theory if you are in a shellscape you will be protected since the fragments will fly over you. if you are under a fire trench, the sand covering is supposed to be able to withstand the direct impact of a 155mm round (i am convinced that is bullsh*t).
bombarbments are done after a period of time. other than killing people directly, the other effect of arty rounds is to CONCUSS the defenders. it is said that when you are concussed, you will be deaf and giddy and thus not able to function properly. furthermore, the WP rounds is supposed to be rather irritating to the eyes, although it's no longer a PWP round
during movement, the FO will be with the company itself. only in rare cases where the FO will not be with the main body and when that occurs, it's seldom that he will be deployed to overlook the objective itself. but the rounds are supposed to be registered / zeroed onto the target before the mission itself. -
shock and awe... beware the powers of the arty firepower.
Defintely even if the impact zone was 50m away...you'd still be giddy and totally disoriented...not like war movies arty bombardment still can run and act gung ho.
in any case MINDEF newest defence clip is on...Arty. Go watch haha.... -
Hmm, how bad is arty bombardment when you are on the receiving end. Well, Arty drill in BMT is hell enough. When your spec shout Arty Arty and you have to run like hell with your FBO and rifle then you know how bad arty is.
So I guess the real one will be worst.
Anyway, 87 haven enlisted? I am 86 and I ORD'ed.
Ok, sorry, had to rub it in.
-
POLY!POLY!POLY!Originally posted by jianfish9:Hmm, how bad is arty bombardment when you are on the receiving end. Well, Arty drill in BMT is hell enough. When your spec shout Arty Arty and you have to run like hell with your FBO and rifle then you know how bad arty is.
So I guess the real one will be worst.
Anyway, 87 haven enlisted? I am 86 and I ORD'ed.
Ok, sorry, had to rub it in. -
it is the killing radius loh.... when they down sized the measurements, it effectively means the killing zones of the rounds are now overlapping each other.Originally posted by ProudlySingaporean:i wonder what's this 150x150 or 75x75 in arty terms? what does these mean? and got any difference if target area is changed from one to another? btw for 75m the undersieged infantry can just run out of the killing zone in a jiffy right?
Infantry are taught to run for cover for Arty drill... but the problem is, can do they have enough time to run and look for cover? Also, they will not know just how big the killing zone is as this will be determined by the FO of the opposing force.
Picture this:
Assuming the arty is adoting an adaptive mode of firing, the O will be where the rounds are landing while the yellow region denotes where the enemy infantry are. As you can see, there are "buffer" killing zones around the infantry... how r they gonna run?
Do note that the aim of arty is not to achieve maximum kills for each firing. Rather, they sought to demoralise the enemy and instil fear and confusion.
For SIN, after a barrage of arty fire, air strikes will be called in before our infantry whom are only 300-500 metres away charge in.
-
150 metre x 150 metre square, suppose any living thing within this square will bleed.Originally posted by ProudlySingaporean:i wonder what's this 150x150 or 75x75 in arty terms? what does these mean? and got any difference if target area is changed from one to another? btw for 75m the undersieged infantry can just run out of the killing zone in a jiffy right?
if all the infantry run 400m towards the right, the FO will call for another arty fire right 400, EN -
provided it is allocated to him or i should say to the unit.Originally posted by Quiet Guy:150 metre x 150 metre square, suppose any living thing within this square will bleed.
if all the infantry run 400m towards the right, the FO will call for another arty fire right 400, EN 
-
i'd think they'll call in airstrikes to take out the bunkers; there's the risk of counter battery fire if you use the 155sOriginally posted by storywolf:...
I do not think usually people will bore to hit it again just hoping to knock out a few foot soldiers who decide to go to a already hit spot, just not worth the round. Unless we are talking about bunkers which is enforced, which the arty will keep on hitting on the same spot till it it taken out. -
Wait till I use the arty...
-
be it 155 or not, a well train pax will locate where it firing from. with tech today, it will be more easy to counter arty fire. that is why we used FH2000, self propels and the Primus. fire and move.Originally posted by JasonC:i'd think they'll call in airstrikes to take out the bunkers; there's the risk of counter battery fire if you use the 155s -
that is true only to a certain extent. once the registration is done (for mortars, FH2000 and FH8Originally posted by Joshua1975:be it 155 or not, a well train pax will locate where it firing from. with tech today, it will be more easy to counter arty fire. that is why we used FH2000, self propels and the Primus. fire and move., the firing unit must remain within the registration bucket for the registration data to remain valid. this is normally within 1km x 1km if i remember correctly. if not the guns would need to be re-registered. but guns and mortars are registered by different methods which then have different implications.
seriously, air asset to a brigade is already limited le, i would say it's rather hard for any bns to be allocated a fighter or AH just for themselves -
Well I read this account of this paratrooper in WW2, when he and his friends came under arty fire they started digging foxholes in the frozen ground for cover, then another one of his friends ran over to a crater that had just impacted and started digging there, saying that it's unlikely that another round will impact there. The rest did not follow but by the time the arty had lifted that guy had dug twice as deep as the rest and was better covered.
Of course it depends on the CEP of the guns... if the CEP is small enough then several rounds are going to impact very close to each other and even possibly overlap. Going to the spot where a shell then impacted then would be suicide as the other rounds are going to arrive very near by. In this case it would be best to get out of the area as quickly as possible instead of taking cover, especially if the shells are landing near by.
If the CEP is extremely large- meaning the guns are firing at the max of their range and the rounds are impacting all over the shop... then a shell crater is probably quite safe to take cover in then being caught in the open.
But of course, no grunt wants to be caught under arty at all. -
It's only true for the Primus (and probably the pegasus); As far as i can remember, we only did one shoot and scoot exercise with the FH2000s; the FHs are SP, but for short distances only.Originally posted by Joshua1975:be it 155 or not, a well train pax will locate where it firing from. with tech today, it will be more easy to counter arty fire. that is why we used FH2000, self propels and the Primus. fire and move. -
wow lots of interesting information about arty for me....din know the prowess of arty till i read this thread....saf should get more of arty and howitzers to blast any hostile forces to bits man