Commando Selection and Training
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Gedanken, I understand our conscript army and our limitations. That doesn't stop me from being worried at all.Originally posted by Gedanken:Do you know what you're on about, Chan?
First, you have a conscript army. By that measure alone the SAF cannot afford to do what all-regular armies do, i.e. avoid direct intakes into their paratrooper units. Have you seen the conscript model do Israel any harm?
If it's not about the training, what is it about? Are you going to take your chances with nature and pray for a bumper crop of supermen each and every year? Personally, I'd go with factors that I can control and focus on implementing a training system that produces the best results regardless of the material that you start with.
I've said it many times before - plenty of men from other units can outrun, outjump and out-situp Commandos. On the other hand, put a Commando and an infantryman side-by-side, have them charlie-mike for 96 hours and then get them to solve a tactical problem, and then you'll see the difference. Sure, both will be tired, but betting odds are that the Commando will be less vulnerable to the "shack cannot think" syndrome. I don't care if you can run a four-minute mile - if you can't think at the end of that four minutes, you're still as useless as teats on a bull.
Guess what? The difference doesn't lie in what either man was like when he enlisted. Instead, one would have been pushed to the limit in training while the other would not - it's that simple. I used to be astounded by hearing men from other units (which I won't name) KPKB about doing two rehearsals before an exercise. We used to do 25 rehearsals, covering all the different permutations and combinations of casualties and remaining teams, before each exercise, and these guys are complaining about having to do it a second time?
You're right, Chan - it's simply the training that makes the difference. Hell, right from enlistment day the instructors used to give an evil grin and say, "You can be trained". If you think that the raw material is more important than the training, you really don't understand the job at all.
As for CDO not being SF, well, duh. We're light infantry with airborne capability and we always have been, just like the US Rangers and British Paras. I don't know where you get the idea that we're SF.
As for training what I thought would be best was they take the cream of the crop and train them to be even better, not take some ordinary conscripts and train them to be commandos. I.e. Take the best of the conscripts and train them. From what I see now CDO selection is 100% random. (though of course, I am speculating)
Maybe our logistics simply cannot handle the selection process. -
So what do you define as the best?
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you take those with the highest IQ and best physical performance from each batch (but make sure they don't have the "quitting" mentality). Don't the schools have NAPFA tests scores that are available to the SAF before the kids enter NS?Originally posted by Gedanken:So what do you define as the best? -
From experience, wrong and wrong. Yes, we had some reasonably high-IQ chaps in there, but they ended up being outdone by less intellectual lads who could keep their heads when the proverbial hit the fan. The brainiacs seemed to go into meltdown when things failed to go according to plan.
As for the physical side, I had a champion canoeist from my JC who ended up in my platoon, and he also placed reasonably well in the under 18s bodybuilding championships. Yes, fine physical specimen he was. Guess what? Every morning, we had to drag his pitiful arse over the 5km finish line because he kept breaking down and bawling like a baby. His old man was a big shot st SingTel and pulled him out after five weeks, and he eventually became an infantry officer. Another guy was the inter-school hurdles champ - he lasted about eight weeks.
On the other hand, most of the guys I marched out with on 19 June 1993 were nothing special to begin with. Two and a half years earlier, many of us couldn't make a 2.4 in less than 11 minutes, but we all ended up doing it in less than 8:45, and they're a damned sight tougher than the guys who could run 9:45 on enlistment day. As I said before, my instructors were right - you can be trained.
At the end of the day, less than 50% that enlisted got the beret, and what they had was not Einstein IQ or superman fitness, but just that no-bullsh*t mindset that gets the job done. That's what makes a Commando, and from my experience, nothing else counts. Today I'm a registered psychologist, and damned if I could define what our instructors were looking for, but I know it when I see it, and a whole lot of smart, fit guys just ain't it. -
I thought SAF have send candidates to oversea training such as Navy SEAL. I am sure these oversea training help to import new methology and exposure and standard for home grown training.Originally posted by chanjyj:\
THIS IS THE THING i AM MOST WORRIED ABOUT FOR THE SAF
There is no clear selection.
In other countries, the best of the best get selected... and slowly weed out those which cannot make it. The result is the cream of the crop.
But in Singapore, you just take a bunch of people, train them, and call them "elite". Yes, sure, they are better than normal infantry because of the training. But some in the infantry, if they get the same training the CDOs have, will be even better!
Our CDOs really cannot be considered "Special Forces"... I tend to think more of them as elite infantry thats all.
And in war time, will out SOF and SWG have enough people to carry out the necessary tasks? -
yes, this is called the weeding out process isn't it? Take the best and weed out the rest?Originally posted by Gedanken:From experience, wrong and wrong. Yes, we had some reasonably high-IQ chaps in there, but they ended up being outdone by less intellectual lads who could keep their heads when the proverbial hit the fan. The brainiacs seemed to go into meltdown when things failed to go according to plan.
As for the physical side, I had a champion canoeist from my JC who ended up in my platoon, and he also placed reasonably well in the under 18s bodybuilding championships. Yes, fine physical specimen he was. Guess what? Every morning, we had to drag his pitiful arse over the 5km finish line because he kept breaking down and bawling like a baby. His old man was a big shot st SingTel and pulled him out after five weeks, and he eventually became an infantry officer. Another guy was the inter-school hurdles champ - he lasted about eight weeks.
On the other hand, most of the guys I marched out with on 19 June 1993 were nothing special to begin with. Two and a half years earlier, many of us couldn't make a 2.4 in less than 11 minutes, but we all ended up doing it in less than 8:45, and they're a damned sight tougher than the guys who could run 9:45 on enlistment day. As I said before, my instructors were right - you can be trained.
At the end of the day, less than 50% that enlisted got the beret, and what they had was not Einstein IQ or superman fitness, but just that no-bullsh*t mindset that gets the job done. That's what makes a Commando, and from my experience, nothing else counts. Today I'm a registered psychologist, and damned if I could define what our instructors were looking for, but I know it when I see it, and a whole lot of smart, fit guys just ain't it.
What SG seems to be doing is not even taking the best in the first place -
But that is only one or two people, not a whole batch of people.Originally posted by Arapahoe:I thought SAF have send candidates to oversea training such as Navy SEAL. I am sure these oversea training help to import new methology and exposure and standard for home grown training. -
Quite right, most Cdos are damn "DARE" in mental and physical strength... must be why there no red berets in BG rank... or perhaps the better chaps are quitters and gone overseas.Originally posted by Gedanken:From experience, wrong and wrong. Yes, we had some reasonably high-IQ chaps in there, but they ended up being outdone by less intellectual lads who could keep their heads when the proverbial hit the fan. The brainiacs seemed to go into meltdown when things failed to go according to plan.
As for the physical side, I had a champion canoeist from my JC who ended up in my platoon, and he also placed reasonably well in the under 18s bodybuilding championships. Yes, fine physical specimen he was. Guess what? Every morning, we had to drag his pitiful arse over the 5km finish line because he kept breaking down and bawling like a baby. His old man was a big shot st SingTel and pulled him out after five weeks, and he eventually became an infantry officer. Another guy was the inter-school hurdles champ - he lasted about eight weeks.
On the other hand, most of the guys I marched out with on 19 June 1993 were nothing special to begin with. Two and a half years earlier, many of us couldn't make a 2.4 in less than 11 minutes, but we all ended up doing it in less than 8:45, and they're a damned sight tougher than the guys who could run 9:45 on enlistment day. As I said before, my instructors were right - you can be trained.
At the end of the day, less than 50% that enlisted got the beret, and what they had was not Einstein IQ or superman fitness, but just that no-bullsh*t mindset that gets the job done. That's what makes a Commando, and from my experience, nothing else counts. Today I'm a registered psychologist, and damned if I could define what our instructors were looking for, but I know it when I see it, and a whole lot of smart, fit guys just ain't it. -
Gee...the way you say it...makes me worry.Why? Because it brings back images from this movie called Soldier by Kurt Russell a number of years back. Handpicked from birth to be soldiers, at 3/4 start playing IQ games, 5/6 exposed to gore by watching a wild boar torn to ribbons by a couple of pitbulls, 10/12 intense physical training, those who don't make the cut are shot by the Training officer, then 16 onwards weapons training. So highly trained and motivated that when presented with a terrorist/enemy holding a woman hostage, Kurt Russell's character shot through the woman to kill the baddie behind.Originally posted by chanjyj:you take those with the highest IQ and best physical performance from each batch (but make sure they don't have the "quitting" mentality). Don't the schools have NAPFA tests scores that are available to the SAF before the kids enter NS?
You sure its this type of mentality you want with our troops? -
and then what about other important-yet-seem-not-important military formations? intelligence, signals...etc.Originally posted by chanjyj:you take those with the highest IQ and best physical performance from each batch (but make sure they don't have the "quitting" mentality). Don't the schools have NAPFA tests scores that are available to the SAF before the kids enter NS?
sieveing out the 'dont if quitting mentality' is not easy at all. isnt it the same in financial-sense as the 'mean-testing' for hospitalisation in singapore? can u 100% sure that govt/companies awarding scholarship will 100% be no bond breakers later as well?
our whole army concept works interlockingly intergrated. thus the combined arms divisions concept. when there is front office work, there will always be back office that do the backend work processes.
logistics may seems unimportant to u at all. but troops would NOT last without essential water/food/ammonition re-supply. -
take the analogy of ... the civil service shld snap up all the best to work for the govt. then what abt the private sector that keeps the economy going mostly?Originally posted by chanjyj:yes, this is called the weeding out process isn't it? Take the best and weed out the rest?
What SG seems to be doing is not even taking the best in the first place
[commandoes vs other formations] -
Hey. since when did I say that logistics is not important? I didn't even mention logistics!Originally posted by eac:and then what about other important-yet-seem-not-important military formations? intelligence, signals...etc.
sieveing out the 'dont if quitting mentality' is not easy at all. isnt it the same in financial-sense as the 'mean-testing' for hospitalisation in singapore? can u 100% sure that govt/companies awarding scholarship will 100% be no bond breakers later as well?
our whole army concept works interlockingly intergrated. thus the combined arms divisions concept. when there is front office work, there will always be back office that do the backend work processes.
logistics may seems unimportant to u at all. but troops would NOT last without essential water/food/ammonition re-supply.
If you interpreted something I said in the wrong light please let me know which area so I can edit my post before others get the wrong idea too. -
I think the analogy is abit flawed. The civil service sucks in whoever is good ACADEMICALLY. There are different needs in the various diff ministries so being academically good (even under the current guise of being good in both academics and CCA) may not be enough. Whereas for the CDO selection and qualification, the CDOs (more or less) got the type of people with the mentality that they want. Not just some muscle for brain type of people.Originally posted by eac:take the analogy of ... the civil service shld snap up all the best to work for the govt. then what abt the private sector that keeps the economy going mostly?
[commandoes vs other formations]
I still think scholars are over rated. Most of them are insensitive selfish pricks.
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But hey, elite formations in the army should get the elite soldiers right? (No offence)Originally posted by eac:take the analogy of ... the civil service shld snap up all the best to work for the govt. then what abt the private sector that keeps the economy going mostly?
[commandoes vs other formations]
If not why call em elite?
Those who are "weeded out", may be the 2nd best, and that's about it. If you take the best and put them as clerks... the clerks will now be called commandos/NDU yes?
I know my theory has plenty of loopholes, but I don't think the current SAF method is the best either. Mono-intake has to have a reason. -
the point is that if those the best are channelled to the commandoes, have u thought of other formations?Originally posted by chanjyj:Hey. since when did I say that logistics is not important? I didn't even mention logistics!
If you interpreted something I said in the wrong light please let me know which area so I can edit my post before others get the wrong idea too.
the definition of the word 'best' here is very debatable.
the man replying to u is a reservist commando by the way. his points are commando's point-of-view pointers. -
Ive rather enjoyed working with some commandos. I really liked their serious attitude and their mental endurance when it came to long hours. No, they dont out think, out plan us initially. But as the hours grew longer, when we get mentally tired out, we run out of options, some these chaps took over. They proved to us that the important things are always simple, and that theres always a way. Their mental fortitude really carried us through to the finishing line.
No offense, im not saying that our friends were dumb. They werent complicated thinkers, thats all. They think well, but most importantly, they dared to act out on it quickly and make things work. -
in this world, there is no methologies that r in perfect balance sense.Originally posted by chanjyj:But hey, elite formations in the army should get the elite soldiers right? (No offence)
If not why call em elite?
Those who are "weeded out", may be the 2nd best, and that's about it. If you take the best and put them as clerks... the clerks will now be called commandos/NDU yes?
I know my theory has plenty of loopholes, but I don't think the current SAF method is the best either. Mono-intake has to have a reason.
elite as in a military operational sense that commandos formation is a small family. 1 active battalion and a reservist battalion on reservist standby.
so only those few r red berets who go behind the enemy lines to sabotage their installations and recce missions, whereby there r thousands of green beret infantry soldiers are needed to guard the borders of singapore when in need of time. thus by percentage, arent they are given the tag elite? furthermore, not all mono-intake into commando unit pass out as a red beret.
as he had mentioned, ordinary man is pushed to the limit and beyond to be trained as a commando. -
Originally posted by eac:
and what I was trying to say, was you take better-than-ordinary-men and push them to their limit and beyond to be even better than commando
as he had mentioned, ordinary man is pushed to the limit and beyond to be trained as a commando.[/b] -
didnt u read this as a live living example from a commando himself?Originally posted by Gedanken:From experience, wrong and wrong. Yes, we had some reasonably high-IQ chaps in there, but they ended up being outdone by less intellectual lads who could keep their heads when the proverbial hit the fan. The brainiacs seemed to go into meltdown when things failed to go according to plan.
As for the physical side, I had a champion canoeist from my JC who ended up in my platoon, and he also placed reasonably well in the under 18s bodybuilding championships. Yes, fine physical specimen he was. Guess what? Every morning, we had to drag his pitiful arse over the 5km finish line because he kept breaking down and bawling like a baby. His old man was a big shot st SingTel and pulled him out after five weeks, and he eventually became an infantry officer. Another guy was the inter-school hurdles champ - he lasted about eight weeks.
On the other hand, most of the guys I marched out with on 19 June 1993 were nothing special to begin with. Two and a half years earlier, many of us couldn't make a 2.4 in less than 11 minutes, but we all ended up doing it in less than 8:45, and they're a damned sight tougher than the guys who could run 9:45 on enlistment day. As I said before, my instructors were right - you can be trained.
At the end of the day, less than 50% that enlisted got the beret, and what they had was not Einstein IQ or superman fitness, but just that no-bullsh*t mindset that gets the job done. That's what makes a Commando, and from my experience, nothing else counts. Today I'm a registered psychologist, and damned if I could define what our instructors were looking for, but I know it when I see it, and a whole lot of smart, fit guys just ain't it.
i ve said b4, the definition of the word 'best' here is very debatable. -
watch You tube the canandian, british, Danes engaging taliban. Great video no music.
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I know the point lah. But what if gedanken himself had an even higher IQ than he had now?Originally posted by eac:didnt u read this as a live living example from a commando himself?
i ve said b4, the definition of the word 'best' here is very debatable.
I'm not sure you get my point.
Nvm lah. I tired of typing liao. this is a problem for the CDF. Maybe it's not a problem at all, but my own perceived problem. Whatever lah. -
Chan, I'm not sure if you can see it, but that's circular reasoning.Originally posted by chanjyj:yes, this is called the weeding out process isn't it? Take the best and weed out the rest?
What SG seems to be doing is not even taking the best in the first place
You want the best, so you take a whole bunch of lads and weed out the ones who don't make it and presumably what you have left is the best. That part's simple enough.
But then you say you want to pick out the best to weed out the rest. Well, if you had to weed out the rest to identify the best in the first place, how are you going to pick out the best for weeding out?
You're trying to put the cart before the horse here. -
Spot on, Shotgun - that's precisely the quality that Commandos bring to the party. The nature of commando-type work is that betting odds are that the chips will be down - think Bastogne, the Suez canal and Wireless Ridge. In that kind of situation, the most important, if not only, quality needed is that the fellow next to you has to be there doing what he's supposed to be doing.Originally posted by Shotgun:Ive rather enjoyed working with some commandos. I really liked their serious attitude and their mental endurance when it came to long hours. No, they dont out think, out plan us initially. But as the hours grew longer, when we get mentally tired out, we run out of options, some these chaps took over. They proved to us that the important things are always simple, and that theres always a way. Their mental fortitude really carried us through to the finishing line.
No offense, im not saying that our friends were dumb. They werent complicated thinkers, thats all. They think well, but most importantly, they dared to act out on it quickly and make things work. -
Hey, quitter and proud of it!Originally posted by gonegoose:Quite right, most Cdos are damn "DARE" in mental and physical strength... must be why there no red berets in BG rank... or perhaps the better chaps are quitters and gone overseas.
Oh, it looks like we are on the verge of getting our first one-star. Too bad it's a fellow I couldn't possibly bring myself to respect. Scholar, ex-Armour and covered by someone all the way up the ladder - he's earnest enough, but I honestly don't know if I could go into battle with him and not worry about getting killed for some silly reason.
Besides, I'd count Ghengis Khan's troops as spiritual predecessors of the commandos, and Ghenghis' right-hand man Yasotay once said, "You do not need any more generals; when the hour of crisis comes, remember that forty selected men can shake the world". -
+1Originally posted by Obersturmfuhrer:I think the analogy is abit flawed. The civil service sucks in whoever is good ACADEMICALLY. There are different needs in the various diff ministries so being academically good (even under the current guise of being good in both academics and CCA) may not be enough. Whereas for the CDO selection and qualification, the CDOs (more or less) got the type of people with the mentality that they want. Not just some muscle for brain type of people.
I still think scholars are over rated. Most of them are insensitive selfish pricks.