NSF found dead in camp: It's suicide, rules coroner
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You do realise that tough training and all that isn't enough to prepare a soldier for war? There is the psychological aspect that can still break the soldier. None of our soldiers have actually raised a firearm and shot a human. When they start to see the horrors of the battlefield, with blood and gore and limps all around, this "care for soldier" by your definition would potentially fail utterly and send lots of soldiers insane?Originally posted by Ristar:Care For Soldiers
my understanding for this Core Value is that you put them through a lot of crap and tough training so that they will survive on the battlefield and excel in their task.
this is the Army, not a nursery. we (NSF, Regulars and NSmen) are the one and only force standing in between foreign invaders and the women and children. please keep that in mind.
it is sad that a person took his own life. however, he was screwed up before hand, the Army only exacerbated his problems. but, it was his own lust for the new handphone, and getting caught, that made him do it. it was his own cowardice and fear of going to DB that made him cut his wrist.
his own personality flaw is the root of the problem, not the Army. such irresponsible behaviour is unbecoming of a soldier, anyway.
and i agree that NSFs should get more pay. mine was crap, high risk, real ops, practical and knowledge based, but crap pay. knn.
During WWII, most US soldiers did not fire their gun. Would you like to call them cowards? -
Relax.. We're not in a war.Originally posted by Fingolfin_Noldor:You do realise that tough training and all that isn't enough to prepare a soldier for war? There is the psychological aspect that can still break the soldier. None of our soldiers have actually raised a firearm and shot a human. When they start to see the horrors of the battlefield, with blood and gore and limps all around, this "care for soldier" by your definition would potentially fail utterly and send lots of soldiers insane?
During WWII, most US soldiers did not fire their gun. Would you like to call them cowards?
Prepared mentality for war or not, these psychological trauma is something that is to be bear by all soldiers.
Soldiers who went for war had the highest sucide rate, as seen from those who went for Iraq War. The cruelity of war spares no one's mind, unless you're a heartless beast. -
and i hope that our soldiers will never be required to raise their weapon and fire at a human being.Originally posted by Fingolfin_Noldor:You do realise that tough training and all that isn't enough to prepare a soldier for war? There is the psychological aspect that can still break the soldier. None of our soldiers have actually raised a firearm and shot a human. When they start to see the horrors of the battlefield, with blood and gore and limps all around, this "care for soldier" by your definition would potentially fail utterly and send lots of soldiers insane?
During WWII, most US soldiers did not fire their gun. Would you like to call them cowards?
stressing them out mentally is the only thing we can do now. if they cannot even take stress during training, they will die in combat earlier.
however, by your logic that in WW II, US soldiers did not fire their weapon, how come sodiers now fire their weapon? dun tell me soldiers now are from WW II.
to my understanding, in WW II, people train with bullseye targets. that is why live firing ranges change their target boards to silhouette targets.
my point, training tries to prepare one for the worst. one who receives training will do better than one who never received any. -
[b]Originally posted by t_a_s:NS is a stupid thing, our soldiers cant fight, go inside camp become stress, that is why suiside, gah men waste alot in defence, singapore is a small country, one missile the whole island is gone, civil defence is more relevent.
If you think that you guys can't take the stress that NSF dished out to you, do you think you can take the stress that is dished out by a civilian job?
Them civilian jobs with all the backstabbing, sizing you up before you can even prove yourself, superiors and management belittling you and judging you when you make one small silly mistake and condaming you for the rest of your miserable life in the company, with the only recourse left for you is to resign and go look for another job? And you can never ever hope to establish yourself if you keep rolling from one job to the next...like in "rolling stone gathers no moss"??
At least the time spent in serving NSF hardens a young man, which will help the man to take the brutal and harsh nature of a backstabbing, judgemental civilian job.
Those who do not agree with this statement, either have not gone through tough Army life himself or may have served his NSF in some low life forms in the Services or have been totally exempted from serving!! -
but you too admit that ns was an additional excaberating factor in the guy suiciding or ruining his life right?Originally posted by Ristar:Care For Soldiers
my understanding for this Core Value is that you put them through a lot of crap and tough training so that they will survive on the battlefield and excel in their task.
this is the Army, not a nursery. we (NSF, Regulars and NSmen) are the one and only force standing in between foreign invaders and the women and children. please keep that in mind.
it is sad that a person took his own life. however, he was screwed up before hand, the Army only exacerbated his problems. but, it was his own lust for the new handphone, and getting caught, that made him do it. it was his own cowardice and fear of going to DB that made him cut his wrist.
his own personality flaw is the root of the problem, not the Army. such irresponsible behaviour is unbecoming of a soldier, anyway.
and i agree that NSFs should get more pay. mine was crap, high risk, real ops, practical and knowledge based, but crap pay. knn.
anyway, most of those who been in army will know that the camps are pretty depressing places. small surprise that a person with problems will be driven to worse plight while in them.
but then again, i wonder what can be done even if the government wants to
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by missile, you mean atomic bomb. in the unlikely event that a country possessing nuclear weapons wants Singapore... then yes, all gone IF they use it.Originally posted by t_a_s:NS is a stupid thing, our soldiers cant fight, go inside camp become stress, that is why suiside, gah men waste alot in defence, singapore is a small country, one missile the whole island is gone, civil defence is more relevent. -
yes.Originally posted by hisoka:but you too admit that ns was an additional excaberating factor in the guy suiciding or ruining his life right?
anyway, most of those who been in army will know that the camps are pretty depressing places. small surprise that a person with problems will be driven to worse plight while in them.
but then again, i wonder what can be done even if the government wants to
life has always been a natural selection process. i mean, what difference is there between a human brain in 2007 and BC 2007? i dare venture to say that human beings are just cavemen in a modern era.
human beings never escape their original programming which is to survive and replicate.
their personality is genetic, hereditary, and is based on their experience, which gives them a map from which they experience the world. there are other factors affecting an individual too. they are, but are not limited to looks, and resources available. be it sea shells in the cavemen times, or money in the modern world. those who look good will experience a world that is cherrier than those who are fugly. more guys who are taller would feel more like an Alpha Male, than short guys.
therefore, natural selection demands that this life, however sad it might be, be taken out. -
please allow me to be the first to agree with you.Originally posted by FireAndHell:If you think that you guys can't take the stress that NSF dished out to you, do you think you can take the stress that is dished out by a civilian job?
Them civilian jobs with all the backstabbing, sizing you up before you can even prove yourself, superiors and management belittling you and judging you when you make one small silly mistake and condaming you for the rest of your miserable life in the company, with the only recourse left for you is to resign and go look for another job? And you can never ever hope to establish yourself if you keep rolling from one job to the next...like in "rolling stone gathers no moss"??
At least the time spent in serving NSF hardens a young man, which will help the man to take the brutal and harsh nature of a backstabbing, judgemental civilian job.
Those who do not agree with this statement, either have not gone through tough Army life himself or may have served his NSF in some low life forms in the Services or have been totally exempted from serving!!
however, i'd like to add that if the person in question were to be good enough and prove his/her worth in the SAF/civilian job, then things will change for the better.
your statement ...condaming you for the rest of your miserable life in the company... assumes that this hypothetical person will not take steps to improve him/herself and his/her competency in the job. -
different cases. stress is one thing, conscription is another. some may be able to take the stress well, but not be able to take the isolation and forced militarism + depressing atmosphereOriginally posted by FireAndHell:[b]
If you think that you guys can't take the stress that NSF dished out to you, do you think you can take the stress that is dished out by a civilian job?
Them civilian jobs with all the backstabbing, sizing you up before you can even prove yourself, superiors and management belittling you and judging you when you make one small silly mistake and condaming you for the rest of your miserable life in the company, with the only recourse left for you is to resign and go look for another job? And you can never ever hope to establish yourself if you keep rolling from one job to the next...like in "rolling stone gathers no moss"??
At least the time spent in serving NSF hardens a young man, which will help the man to take the brutal and harsh nature of a backstabbing, judgemental civilian job.
Those who do not agree with this statement, either have not gone through tough Army life himself or may have served his NSF in some low life forms in the Services or have been totally exempted from serving!! -
Let me just say that people from countries without NS are equally tough, if not tougher than the vast majority of us.
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Death should always be the last solution.
It is imperative to address the increasing numbers of death in NS. -
Armies these days are volunteer armies and not draft. They are professional. Ours does not count. A totally different scenario. These people agreed to fight and they are thrown into far tougher training at the start to weed out the weak. There is a option to quit. Here, we have none. You can't quit, except end up in DB.Originally posted by Ristar:and i hope that our soldiers will never be required to raise their weapon and fire at a human being.
stressing them out mentally is the only thing we can do now. if they cannot even take stress during training, they will die in combat earlier.
however, by your logic that in WW II, US soldiers did not fire their weapon, how come sodiers now fire their weapon? dun tell me soldiers now are from WW II.
to my understanding, in WW II, people train with bullseye targets. that is why live firing ranges change their target boards to silhouette targets.
my point, training tries to prepare one for the worst. one who receives training will do better than one who never received any. -
and your point would be?Originally posted by Fingolfin_Noldor:Armies these days are volunteer armies and not draft. They are professional. Ours does not count. A totally different scenario. These people agreed to fight and they are thrown into far tougher training at the start to weed out the weak. There is a option to quit. Here, we have none. You can't quit, except end up in DB.
we are talking about stress, arent we?
thousands upon thousands of able bodied males have gone through the same crap. wat makes this guy different? -
Who are you to judge whether this person is made of the same stuff as the rest? Just because you made it doesn't mean every one should and would.Originally posted by Ristar:and your point would be?
we are talking about stress, arent we?
thousands upon thousands of able bodied males have gone through the same crap. wat makes this guy different?
It is presumptuous to assume this, and this is possibly one of many social factors that drive people already deep in despair from asking from help in the first place because admitting he is in trouble merely opens the way for people to start ostracising him, as if he doesn't feel ostracised enough.
A person in despair needs sympathy, empathy and help not self righteous arrogance. -
2 words i mentioned before.Originally posted by Fingolfin_Noldor:Who are you to judge whether this person is made of the same stuff as the rest? Just because you made it doesn't mean every one should and would.
It is presumptuous to assume this, and this is possibly one of many social factors that drive people already deep in despair from asking from help in the first place because admitting he is in trouble merely opens the way for people to start ostracising him, as if he doesn't feel ostracised enough.
A person in despair needs sympathy, empathy and help not self righteous arrogance.
natural selection.
stealing is not asking for help. it is a criminal offense. one can live without a nice handphone.
committing suicide would be too, except he suceeded.
if u should think, for one moment that committing a criminal offense is asking for help...
rapists are asking for help coz they like it sadistic. give them money to go geylang and ask the pros to be an actress izzit?
masochists should be given a bigger and sharper knife coz they need to make a bigger cut on themselves.
molesters cant get laid or have special fetishes. give them money to go geylang and ask the pros to be an actress izzit?
robbers should be sympathised coz they need more money.
drug peddlers who make tons of ppl suffer due to addiction should be given more money so they dun need to do it.
pedophiles like young kids... how? cannot be give them young kids.
all asking for help wat.
my point: a criminal offense is a criminal offense. asking for help requires the person to open his mouth and ask. -
Natural Selection!?!?!Originally posted by Ristar:2 words i mentioned before.
natural selection.
stealing is not asking for help.
What has Natural Selection got to do everything? Or have we decided to go so low with high and holiness and dictate who should die and should fail?
Do you honestly think a person is going to wear a badge of honour and say "I need help?" and fear possible exile? The army is built on the idea of strength over the weak. In such environment, anyone would fear being at the bottom of the food chain since it leaves them utterly powerless in the face of "fate".
Suicidal thoughts are not simply thoughts. There have been studies that indicate that there are brain chemistry imbalances in the person's mind prior to the final act. Similar studies on murderers have been done, and some serious serial killers have been found to have some parts of the brain "damaged". There aren't pills for depression for nothing mind you. -
like i said. criminal offense is not asking for help. please read the edited post.
studies have also shown that the power of suggestion; giving a person a placebo for his mental instability while telling him it will make him better, is quite powerful too.
and, mentally unstable patients can ask for support from family (cannot be parents also abandon him), see a shrink, or do self hypnosis if he is trained or read up on it.
no, hypnosis is not dangling a bloody pendulum in front of u, if u r thinking along that rubbish line.
he decided he should die. i rest my case.
Or have we decided to go so low with high and holiness and dictate who should die and should fail?
natural selection. the weak will not propagate their genes so that only the favourable traits of a species would be passed on to later generations. no need to discredit me by using high and holy. if u must, i'd say that this is a very clinical way of looking at things.
understand?
simi lj badge? f--- u lah, u got serve the army before or not? knn, talking cock with me.
Do you honestly think a person is going to wear a badge of honour and say "I need help?" and fear possible exile? The army is built on the idea of strength over the weak. In such environment, anyone would fear being at the bottom of the food chain since it leaves them utterly powerless in the face of "fate".
RANK is most important. RANK decides whether u r weak or strong. RANK is everything. understand?
u think u r strong, but if u r a bloody Enlistee (REC up to CPL), every bloody day u are required to sweep the floor, throw rubbish, and all the random sh!t, on top of your work. it does not matter wat u think, because RANK is the most important thing in the SAF.
RANK can cause old men (SSG and up) to talk nicely to a young 2LT and suck up to him by driving him home everyday. RANK can also cause the same people to curse and swear at those lower RANK than him.
if he is a bloody PTE, he'd better resign himself to fate for the next 2 years. because guess wat? he IS at the very bottom of the food chain. only outranking REC, OCT (who will be officers sooner or later) and the detainees in DB. none of whom he would have a chance to meet... while he was still alive. and do not expect an OCT to greet n treat a PTE with too much respect.
knn, strength over the weak... hah! f u lah. dun read too many story books.
yes, but another study shows that people have suicidal thoughts at some point in their lives. wat is important is how one deals with it. as i have noted down earlier, personality is a trait that is genetic, hereditary, and experience based, the experience causing the person to have a map by which he would experience the world.
Suicidal thoughts are not simply thoughts.
the experience would be altered by additional factors that are but not limited to, money and looks accordingly... and upbringing. whether one is fugly, or handsome, a pauper, or filthy rich has an impact on one's life. -
One can only speculate what kind of circumstance and stress the guy was under. But loss of life is always sad, sadder for those who are left behind.
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aye, choco B... i agree with you wholeheartedly on this matter.Originally posted by choco B:One can only speculate what kind of circumstance and stress the guy was under. But loss of life is always sad, sadder for those who are left behind. -
every guys has to serve the army no happen what, it part of your life as a singaporean...Originally posted by near:Don't blame the army than blame who? These people did not chose to serve ns..
If they had chosen to sign on and than can't take the pressure and commit suicide than it will be their fault because they chose to do so..
But these people did not chose to serve the army..so there is only the army to blame
Every years, you see so many enlistees and so many people enlisted, but do everyone of them commit sucide? Do you really think only he is having problem with his life only, there lot more of this kind of peoples in the army also... but why i dun see everyone one of them taking their own life?
You control your own life and since there are people able to cope why can't other... even if he never suicide in the army, i believe next time when he go out into the working enviroment, he encounter the same issue again, he will thought of suiciding again.. Dun blame everythings on the enviroment. it your own mental. If your mind is strong, no matter what you will never do somethings like this. -
Rank is not everything in the SAF. It's your appointment that counts.And second to that, your ability to work and know how to watch your six.Originally posted by Ristar:like i said. criminal offense is not asking for help. please read the edited post.
studies have also shown that the power of suggestion; giving a person a placebo for his mental instability while telling him it will make him better, is quite powerful too.
and, mentally unstable patients can ask for support from family (cannot be parents also abandon him), see a shrink, or do self hypnosis if he is trained or read up on it.
no, hypnosis is not dangling a bloody pendulum in front of u, if u r thinking along that rubbish line.
yes, but another study shows that people have suicidal thoughts at some point in their lives. wat is important is how one deals with it. as i have noted down earlier, personality is a trait that is genetic, hereditary, and experience based, the experience causing the person to have a map by which he would experience the world.
the experience would be altered by additional factors that are but not limited to, money and looks accordingly... and upbringing. whether one is fugly, or handsome, a pauper, or filthy rich has an impact on one's life.simi lj badge? f--- u lah, u got serve the army before or not? knn, talking @!*@ with me.
RANK is most important. RANK decides whether u r weak or strong. RANK is everything. understand?
u think u r strong, but if u r a bloody Enlistee (REC up to CPL), every bloody day u are required to sweep the floor, throw rubbish, and all the random sh!t, on top of your work. it does not matter wat u think, because RANK is the most important thing in the SAF.
RANK can cause old men (SSG and up) to talk nicely to a young 2LT and suck up to him by driving him home everyday. RANK can also cause the same people to curse and swear at those lower RANK than him.
if he is a bloody PTE, he'd better resign himself to fate for the next 2 years. because guess wat? he IS at the very bottom of the food chain. only outranking REC, OCT (who will be officers sooner or later) and the detainees in DB. none of whom he would have a chance to meet... while he was still alive. and do not expect an OCT to greet n treat a PTE with too much respect.
knn, strength over the weak... hah! f u lah. dun read too many story books
However, only NSFs who have served in units beyond the BN level will see the true importance of appointment and where your appointment is in. Sadly, the grunts on the ground will always tend to fall into a situation where they have neither rank, nor appointment.
So without these two, what do you have left? Only your own work ethic and intelligence to know how to squeeze as much benefit for yourself as you can. And that includes being streetwise and knowing when to roll the dice, and when not to.
Mod's Note : Can I request for a more civilised discussion and for everyone to cool down, or else I'll do a lockdown till tempers settle -
Please read On Killing by Lt. Col. Dave Grossman to understand more on why soldiers in WW2 (and other wars before that) tended not to fire their weapons at the enemy and why this rate increased in Korea, Vietnam and finally Iraq in which firing rates are as high as they ever could be.
In short, do your research before spouting more stuff then you actually know.
However, I would also like to point out that this issue is more or less, irrelevant to the thread topic.
I don't see why there is a need to blame the SAF, given plenty of dudes kill themselves without NS to boot. The SAF simply provided the environment which made such factors already present in the individual more effective at pushing him over the brink.
But on the other hand, it would not be fair to blame the army for it... after all the army will be the army and there's only so much they can do to help such people, maybe not enough so far. But those who think NS should be abolished just because of this might as well toss out the baby with the bathwater.
But bottom line is, that dude didn't make himself easy to help... his thief of the handphone certainly didn't help things.
As Spiderman said, we all have a choice. Sometimes it's tempting to blame what happened on others, but as it turned out as moral beings we always have a choice. -
sry if i seem to be too aggressive. i did not mean to come across like that.
i'd think that a PTE, being held in isolation, watever appointment he might have is null and void already.
in addition to the possibility of getting charged and thrown into the Detention Barracks.
thank you.
Sadly, the grunts on the ground will always tend to fall into a situation where they have neither rank, nor appointment.
on a side note, hps are a real problem with youths these days.. wa lao... a ger drown coz it drop into a canal, a guy kill himself coz he kenna caught stealing... damn. y cant ppl be more relaxed abt things?
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ok, cool.Originally posted by SingaporeTyrannosaur:Please read On Killing by Lt. Col. Dave Grossman to understand more on why soldiers in WW2 (and other wars before that) tended not to fire their weapons at the enemy and why this rate increased in Korea, Vietnam and finally Iraq in which firing rates are as high as they ever could be.
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Yea this is on the macro view... I would rather sacrifice a little kid than the whole of Singapore's mother sister and daugther raped and pillage by who ever has a bigger guns...Originally posted by near:You can't say that.
Being a young kid who knows nothing about responsibility and when aroused by his sexual desires, it is not suprising that he will have underage sex..He is just a human who makes mistakes like all human being does.