The Non-Combat Combat Service Support 3SG Rank
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Haven't you guys given this a good thought before, that some personnels are conveniently promoted to 3SG after attending a theory course without going through Sispec or other combat equivalent schools.
It's pure injustice. These non-combat 3SGs are usually soft, pale and feeble. Yet, they are privileged and excused from 'falling in' and get to watch the platoon from the sideline. All they need to do is put both arms behind their back (while pacing up and down) and look serious while the last parade is given out.
There are many worthy and capable corporals out there because of some reasons are denied such relaxing theory courses and remain stuck at the CPL rank. Their education or intelligence (if you can measure that) are no worse than some 3SGs, definitely.
For people who beg to differ with my view, you may argue that it's all in the appointment. Yes, a theory instructor needs to exert some command over his trainees but the army is a very different institution; personnel who has to be promoted because of their appointment should clear the Sispec course and prove their physical worth. The IPPT criteria alone is not enough, I believe.
I came back from reservist recently and was disgusted at how indiscriminately they promoted 2SGs to 1SGs. There were NO corporals or lance corporals promoted at all. According to the head, the list had 26 sergeants waiting to be promoted! It seems as though being a specialist guaranteed a further promotion regardless of perfromance. It was as if god had sent a decree. I mean...26! That's ridiculous. Compare this to the total number of LCPs and CPLs promoted: 0! Is that to say all the men performed autrociously bad?
I advocate the abolishment of the non-combat 3SG rank. Too many LCPs and CPLs are grieving with no alternatives. -
there used to be this 3SG tub of lard (though he is friendly) in my camp... storeman. cant run and i seriously doubt he can lead an infantry section in an exercise, never mind combat.
then again, maybe he doesnt have to.
fact is, army is screwed up already. adding "feeble" and "ultra fat" people to the ranks of commanders wont make a difference. -
while u are crying for injustice for those in combat service..u haf to understand the dilemma in this. the Rank of a specialist is given for a reason. They are specialised in the area they are at..hence a specialist..juz as a sispec grad is a spec..he is specialised in infantry operations... hence those who are going thru a "theory" course..u definitely didnt go thru any of those right? try being a technician and go thru the BTT.. its definitely not as simple as u think.. troubleshooting and diagnostics require a certain experience and skill.. we are given a spec's rank on the fact that we are specialists in our field.. ask an infantryman to fix a tank..can he manage that?..or even as a armour spec for it..all he is trained for is Operator's level maintainance...try asking him to replace the power pack...
in addition..the rank is given for another purpose..maybe ur not in armour u would not understand the state of vehicles after an exercise...the amount of dirt and mud had to be washed off is horrendus... if we do not have our rank, the vehicle commanders(3SG) would simply pull rank and make my men do the stuff.. Furthermore, the words of a 3SG holds better than a LCP or CPL, simply the fact that the rank is not given to any tom dick or harry..a technician, or a transport spec is a spec because of his level of training..he is specialised in his field..he knows best compared to some newbie LTA or 2LT who thinks he knows. When a tech Spec says vehicle VOR (off road) means VOR..we have the skills to diagnose and thus justify our call... a newbie LTA cannot cuz he knows nuts..even Maintainence side officers would have to learn from us specs when it comes to vehicle repair... think abt tt..
any way..there is a paradigm shift in the combat service support side already..they have abolished the 3SG rank for techies too..and those who deserve the 3SG rank will have to go through a command course called the MSCC, its not as easy as u think..i know..i been thru it..5th Batch MSCC.. and the skills u learn is no where less than BSLC...we are even tested on diagostics and troubleshooting in maintenance ops.. much more vocational based than BSLC where u hone basic section leader skills.. so yep there is a change..juz wait n look on... now the concern is for my techies now..without rank they will be taken advantage of by some lousy specs(not all specs are like tt)... come into our shoes and think if the rank is really required -
i don't even want my 3sg if i could get away with it, i would have been very happy to not get cpl too. saves half a yearOriginally posted by tulanboy:Haven't you guys given this a good thought before, that some personnels are conveniently promoted to 3SG after attending a theory course without going through Sispec or other combat equivalent schools.
It's pure injustice. These non-combat 3SGs are usually soft, pale and feeble. Yet, they are privileged and excused from 'falling in' and get to watch the platoon from the sideline. All they need to do is put both arms behind their back (while pacing up and down) and look serious while the last parade is given out.
There are many worthy and capable corporals out there because of some reasons are denied such relaxing theory courses and remain stuck at the CPL rank. Their education or intelligence (if you can measure that) are no worse than some 3SGs, definitely.
For people who beg to differ with my view, you may argue that it's all in the appointment. Yes, a theory instructor needs to exert some command over his trainees but the army is a very different institution; personnel who has to be promoted because of their appointment should clear the Sispec course and prove their physical worth. The IPPT criteria alone is not enough, I believe.
I came back from reservist recently and was disgusted at how indiscriminately they promoted 2SGs to 1SGs. There were NO corporals or lance corporals promoted at all. According to the head, the list had 26 sergeants waiting to be promoted! It seems as though being a specialist guaranteed a further promotion regardless of perfromance. It was as if god had sent a decree. I mean...26! That's ridiculous. Compare this to the total number of LCPs and CPLs promoted: 0! Is that to say all the men performed autrociously bad?
I advocate the abolishment of the non-combat 3SG rank. Too many LCPs and CPLs are grieving with no alternatives.
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Ranks of servicemen in uniformed services
The ranks of servicemen in the uniformed services of the Singapore Armed Forces, in order of seniority, shall be as follows:
1.
General/Admiral
2.
Lieutenant-General/Vice Admiral
3.
Major-General/Rear Admiral (Two-Star)
4.
Brigadier-General/Rear Admiral (One-Star)/ME8 (Military Expert 8)
5.
Colonel/ME7 (Military Expert 7)
6.
Senior Lieutenant-Colonel
7.
Lieutenant-Colonel/ME6 (Military Expert 6)
8.
Major/ME5 (Military Expert 5)
9.
Captain/ME4 (Military Expert 4)
10.
Lieutenant
11.
Second Lieutenant
12.
Chief Warrant Officer
13.
Senior Warrant Officer
14.
Master Warrant Officer
15.
First Warrant Officer/ME3 (Military Expert 3)
16.
Second Warrant Officer
17.
Third Warrant Officer
18.
Master Sergeant/ME2 (Military Expert 2)
19.
Staff Sergeant
20.
First Sergeant
21.
Second Sergeant/ME1 (Military Expert 1)
22.
Third Sergeant
23.
Corporal (First Class)
24.
Corporal
25.
Lance-Corporal
26.
Private (First Class)
27.
Private
28.
Recruit. -
last time lah. they penalise those pple with higher education by promoting them to cpl at least even if they were absolute kluts and make them serve another half a yearOriginally posted by Ristar:wat half a year? ppl serve only 2 years now wat. -
my time 2.5 yearsOriginally posted by Ristar:wat half a year? ppl serve only 2 years now wat.
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i feel so young all of a sudden.
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does rank matter?
it doesn't at where i am.
people who don't work will get f*cked upside down regardless of rank. -
Last time it seemed to be violation of human rights to be promoted against one person's real will but promotion in reservist also cannot reject.Originally posted by hisoka:last time lah. they penalise those pple with higher education by promoting them to cpl at least even if they were absolute kluts and make them serve another half a year
The only thing is to ask a psychiatrist to certify u cannot be promoted cause too many responsilibilites can cause anxiety. -
a medic sgt also never go through sispec, he only need to go through advance medic course and more IV, i have seen fat 3sg medic b4.
for ICT, the smaller the rank the better, u dun have to be bunk IC, shit IC, all shit, let the 3sgt hold the appointment, we cpl and below wait and see,
We only need promotion when sign on....
when u get promote too high in ICT, then after u finish ur 10 cycles ICT, they will help u to VOLUNTEER for more ICT after u finish ur cycle -
[quote]Originally posted by peychinhwee:
[b]a medic sgt also never go through sispec, he only need to go through advance medic course and more IV, i have seen fat 3sg medic b4.
This is where things go awry. You see, this obese sergeant can actually knock you down when he himself can't do 5 proper pushups. How fair is that supposed to be?
Also, it's easy to give credit to these 'theory-sergeants' during peacetime because things are working smoothly--Yeah, let them hold their 3SG rank 'cos they are not a hindrance to anyone as long as they possess the correct knowledge in their specialty. However, in the event of a war, are we to protect these feeble, pale sergeants who might not even hold a rifle properly? For all we know, they might go behind some door and release their urine all over the floor when the enemy invades a camp...I might be exaggerating but you get my drift. We need sergeants who can also jump run and fight, or minimally put up some resistance physically during wartime while leading a small group of men in the absence of higher authority--Not people who only give orders then observe while trembling from a distance.
Now think about that. -
Not sure what's your exact context here. You're talking about active time or reservist? Or are you saying CQs, MT line, Signal Stores & Medical Centers, etc. cannot have a ranking NCO over their men?
If you dislike rear echelon personnel, hey, join the club. But those departments are also run militarily, & taking charge as a (formal) IC is the foremost job of a 3SG, regardless of vocation.
CPLs don't make 3SGs per se. Lemme bring up some historical perspective here. Back in the mid-80s, apocryphally, some higher-ups disliked the trend of Air-Level enlistees making CPL, thereby becoming of equal rank with the SAFINCO-trained ones. A new rank, Corporal First Class (CFC), was introduced to supposedly redress this -- except it never took off on the ground. I believe one of the original intentions was to make every "proper" NCO a CFC, but it turned out to be rear-echelon people who got promoted most instead. Complicating matters, the latter new CFCs were often Departmental 2ICs or equivalent, a subordinated role which became associated with the rank. The design of the rank itself, which is similar to today's CPL one, proved to be controversial too after it became popularly coined as "two-&-a-half-stripe ", insinuating a cursory contrivance (despite its good intentions). The feedback must've been conspiciously negative, cuz not soon after the SAF announced a complete revamp of the NCO rank hierarchy (which I'm sure might've been tied up with other, larger policy changes).
If you're advocating to bar non-combat troops from making 3SG, then it won't work cuz the next-lowest rank (CFC) isn't a NCO rank. Yet your QM or your MO needs someone principally-trained to help him run & manage his people. Acting-IC appointments do happen fairly regularly in reservist, but they tend to be temporary & in any case don't fit into any acceptable military chain of command.
As for "indiscriminate " NCO promotions in reservist, what you're discovering is what I (& others) did earlier: it's a different system from active time. Only the KAHs climb up in rank now. For what it's worth, in our local reservist context, your CQ or Chief Clark or MT Sergeant has a more vital role in the unit's overall functioning than your usual Platoon Commander. Hence they get promoted, while the company-line LTAs don't. Hence they get called back earlier & more often than the main body, where the PFCs/CPLs/LTAs/3SGs report for ICT together &, as a group, don't get promoted throughout their entire cycle.
But I reckon even disappointed reservists will take these quirks in stride. By all means, cosy up to your commander if there's an opening. Even if you're willing to use up the maximum 40 days recallable each year, do you really want to risk getting recycled to a newly-ORDed unit when you hit your mid-30s? That's what KAHs are open at risk to, esp. officers since they're legally obliged to serve until they're 50! (If you're that chao siao on, why didn't you sign on as a regular in the first place?)
Here's a bet: You'll laugh back someday at this initial disillusionment. I remember doing two men's work during one ROC (my buddy deferred that ICT) &, afterwards during the debrief, jokingly asked my commander about putting me up for 3SG. We laughed it off, he then reminded me about the KAH thing, & predicted I won't be as enthusasistic after a few years. Turned out to be true cuz after the 6th ICT or so, when everyone is nearing their late 20s & have heavier job, spousal & familial responsibilities outside. My unit visibly declined as a result, which was coincidentally when a number of our KAHs were identified for re-coursing for future redeployments (i.e. recycling). The rest of us were mightily relieved, & looked forward to standing down instead. No more callups or IPPTs once posted to the MINDEF reserves, regardless of age & legal obligations. -
that is true.. rather dun want to be promoted during reservist..Originally posted by tokyofire:U registered just to post this??
U seem like beri siao on.. how come u never sign on?
If u ask any of the reservist around, most of them will tell u that they do not want to be promoted. The higher the rank, the more sai kang u have.
Ppl come for 14days ICT, those with appointments have to come back a few days earlier to do all the sai kang.
Anyway, I wont be promoted to 2SG because my performance is POOR. Hip Hip Hooray~ Hip Hip Hooray~
promote to 2SG, then kenna Platoon Sg, promote to 1SG or above, might kenna as CSM.. promote to 3SG, wait become Sect Commander and then come back one week early for reservist..
nowadays, 3SG in reservist kenna more arrows also.. go range have to be safety officer/clearing officer etc etc, while those LCP/CPL rest when not their turn to shoot.. go outfield, 3SG also have to demostrate whatever movement/exercise first.. -
ammo ic during range also need 2sg to sign. go collect from ammo dump, paperwork the pink forms, and return RAI oso need 2sg rank... no good.
2sg can kena csm course too, pass it and u r a coy line csm. or acting csm.
1sg can kena acting hq coy rsm. take note lar... acting appt dun qualify KAH allowance hor... one 1sg reservist complained during reservist exercise to the whole bunk. missed out around 1k of allowance per year, he nearly MR oredi. -
Totally agree with you for nsmen and nsf unless u are an officer,most pp don't even want the rank,the differences in allowances are only a little and yet more duties are to being perform got 3SG compare to cpl not forgetting durning my time LCP and below only serve two yrs of NS while cpl and above 2.5 yrs,if given a chance my batch will more than willing to give away our ranks to those regularsOriginally posted by tokyofire:U registered just to post this??
U seem like beri siao on.. how come u never sign on?
If u ask any of the reservist around, most of them will tell u that they do not want to be promoted. The [b]higher the rank, the more sai kang [/b]u have.
Ppl come for 14days ICT, those with appointments have to come back a few days earlier to do all the sai kang.
Anyway, I wont be promoted to 2SG because my performance is POOR. Hip Hip Hooray~ Hip Hip Hooray~ 
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x2... must be new to reservist...Originally posted by tokyofire:U registered just to post this??
U seem like beri siao on.. how come u never sign on?
If u ask any of the reservist around, most of them will tell u that they do not want to be promoted. The higher the rank, the more sai kang u have.
Ppl come for 14days ICT, those with appointments have to come back a few days earlier to do all the sai kang.
Anyway, I wont be promoted to 2SG because my performance is POOR. Hip Hip Hooray~ Hip Hip Hooray~ -
I only have one thing to say.
Threadstarter has not seen enough of the SAF to understand the importance of the 3SG rank as the basic Specialist rank in the Armed Forces.
I'm glad someone put the idiot in his place. -
i dont even bother to attend reservist. in singapore, u may be a LTA who takes MRT but one LCP may come into reservist in a merc SLK 230 or BMW z4. and it seems that more LCP make it in life than these so -called officers in NS.Originally posted by tulanboy:Haven't you guys given this a good thought before, that some personnels are conveniently promoted to 3SG after attending a theory course without going through Sispec or other combat equivalent schools.
It's pure injustice. These non-combat 3SGs are usually soft, pale and feeble. Yet, they are privileged and excused from 'falling in' and get to watch the platoon from the sideline. All they need to do is put both arms behind their back (while pacing up and down) and look serious while the last parade is given out.
There are many worthy and capable corporals out there because of some reasons are denied such relaxing theory courses and remain stuck at the CPL rank. Their education or intelligence (if you can measure that) are no worse than some 3SGs, definitely.
For people who beg to differ with my view, you may argue that it's all in the appointment. Yes, a theory instructor needs to exert some command over his trainees but the army is a very different institution; personnel who has to be promoted because of their appointment should clear the Sispec course and prove their physical worth. The IPPT criteria alone is not enough, I believe.
I came back from reservist recently and was disgusted at how indiscriminately they promoted 2SGs to 1SGs. There were NO corporals or lance corporals promoted at all. According to the head, the list had 26 sergeants waiting to be promoted! It seems as though being a specialist guaranteed a further promotion regardless of perfromance. It was as if god had sent a decree. I mean...26! That's ridiculous. Compare this to the total number of LCPs and CPLs promoted: 0! Is that to say all the men performed autrociously bad?
I advocate the abolishment of the non-combat 3SG rank. Too many LCPs and CPLs are grieving with no alternatives. -
And I have one thing to add on to what you said: you are clearly not engaging in this discourse on the same frequency. I suppose you view me as some power-hungry lad who goes all out to flame all 3SGs because I don't have the necessary 'capacity' to take on a higher rank. My advice to you: read more, think more and you'll make comments more like a human being. And what exactly constitutes 'having seen enough of the SAF'? Have you, yourself? I'm talking about incapable pieces of shit who get promoted to 3SG by passing a no-brainer theory course and swagger while they walk and pretend to shout orders with booming authority.Originally posted by LazerLordz:I only have one thing to say.
Threadstarter has not seen enough of the SAF to understand the importance of the 3SG rank as the basic Specialist rank in the Armed Forces.
I'm glad someone put the idiot in his place.
Yet there are lame people who digress into how much more responsibility a 3SG has to bear...I mean, that's common sense! In no way have I refuted that point if you read my posts carefully.
And before you start labeling others as an 'idiot', take a good look in the mirror and tell me what you see. I wish you the best of luck in your future endeavours based on my observation about your brazen and odious analysis of strangers. -
Why should I be inured by your seemingly one-sided dialectics about the inability of non-combat soldiers to fully appreciate their Specialist rank?Originally posted by tulanboy:And I have one thing to add on to what you said: you are clearly not engaging in this discourse on the same frequency. I suppose you view me as some power-hungry lad who goes all out to flame all 3SGs because I don't have the necessary 'capacity' to take on a higher rank. My advice to you: read more, think more and you'll make comments more like a human being. And what exactly constitutes 'having seen enough of the SAF'? Have you, yourself? I'm talking about incapable pieces of shit who get promoted to 3SG by passing a no-brainer theory course and swagger while they walk and pretend to shout orders with booming authority.
Yet there are lame people who digress into how much more responsibility a 3SG has to bear...I mean, that's common sense! In no way have I refuted that point if you read my posts carefully.
And before you start labeling others as an 'idiot', take a good look in the mirror and tell me what you see. I wish you the best of luck in your future endeavours based on my observation about your brazen and odious analysis of strangers.
Do you know what being a Specialist means? It is not about the power. It is about having the institutional responsibility to carry out certain tasks which are required in daily activities where there is a need for a minimum rank or qualification.
Secondly, I've heard your type of arguments time and time again, starting out with noble intentions, but they always have one single glaring fault, that you have failed to appreciate the nuanced existence of Tech Specs/Project Specs and how their rank is not there for amusement, but to ensure that higher-ups in their unit framework do not treat them like dirt and inconsequential soldiers when there are tasks that have to be performed, e.g Armament Systems FFI, Ammunition Certification, enforcement of scheduling for VOR equipment and PASV vehicular activities when BN level WOs fail to follow FMN dictated workplans et al.
Your gripe is about the lack of promotional opportunities that are availed to LCPs/CPLs. That is sorely irrelevant to the R&Rs of these people I have described above. This is an issue that is endemic SAF-wide, and it's something I am not happy about as well, but I certainly do not try to lump issues together into a discourse that should have remained circumspect in the first place.
Well, swaggering POS are everywhere, regardless of whether they are combat or non-combat in nature.Your opening lines are simply offensive, and I do not care for them. As to whether I've seen enough of the SAF, comparatively, I can say I do. I've interacted and worked along the lines of units ranging from FMNs, BNs, depots, STK and even DSTA; and I dare say that working withi diverse people who have different talents, and different PES status helped me to appreciate that different people bring various unique abilities to the table. -
life is unfair lah
tonnes of corporals out there haf to take over responsibilities of their specs who haf orded, doin the same stuff as their specs (less the men they can tekan n help them with the dirty jobs) in addition to the minute dirty jobs tt they haf been doin since enlistment... they get their usual miserable allowance n back to being tekaned n arrowed during ict even though they may haf accumulated even more knowledge n experience than their specs...
i prefer rank based on seniority, like tt of the NCC, where everyone goes thru the same shit, n the worthy ones take on higher rank, but everyone eventually take on a spec position... the saf works differently, n i can't help but feel sad for the wose regulars who haf to pay respects to the new 2lts despite their immense experience. -
That is true.Originally posted by khk:life is unfair lah
tonnes of corporals out there haf to take over responsibilities of their specs who haf orded, doin the same stuff as their specs (less the men they can tekan n help them with the dirty jobs) in addition to the minute dirty jobs tt they haf been doin since enlistment... they get their usual miserable allowance n back to being tekaned n arrowed during ict even though they may haf accumulated even more knowledge n experience than their specs...
i prefer rank based on seniority, like tt of the NCC, where everyone goes thru the same shit, n the worthy ones take on higher rank, but everyone eventually take on a spec position... the saf works differently, n i can't help but feel sad for the wose regulars who haf to pay respects to the new 2lts despite their immense experience.
And then, in some units, junior specialists are treated like men. It's mostly in BMTC that people have this misguided impression that being a Spec = authority.
Sometimes, the stuff that Specialists have to answer for, can have an impact on their lives and careers actually. -
What does a project spec do?Originally posted by LazerLordz:That is true.
And then, in some units, junior specialists are treated like men. It's mostly in BMTC that people have this misguided impression that being a Spec = authority.
Sometimes, the stuff that Specialists have to answer for, can have an impact on their lives and careers actually. -
From the people I've worked with, generally they assist System Managers (either in DSTA or DSO) in monitoring projects, be it in implementation, integration or just doing some junior level R&D stuff.Originally posted by will4:What does a project spec do?
Not all of them are in the tech line, a friend of mine served his time at CMPB, doing stuff concerned with HR and how they can streamline things.