The Non-Combat Combat Service Support 3SG Rank
-
I kena told project spec is required to go for basic admin spec course?Originally posted by LazerLordz:From the people I've worked with, generally they assist System Managers (either in DSTA or DSO) in monitoring projects, be it in implementation, integration or just doing some junior level R&D stuff.
Not all of them are in the tech line, a friend of mine served his time at CMPB, doing stuff concerned with HR and how they can streamline things.
How long is the course?
-
I'm not sure about the duration, I think it was a few weeks for NSFs.Originally posted by will4:I kena told project spec is required to go for basic admin spec course?
How long is the course?
For NSMen, could be different. I never went for the course, so maybe those who have can help to clarify.
However, there's no such thing as project specs for NSmen, sadly. -
Well I have to add to this discussion, well being given the rank of 3SG means that you have certain leadership qualities. Well most infantrymen get them through sticking their butts through BSLC and ASLC. Which I have to go through even though I was from AD. I have to say its a rank that you earn.
Back in the Air Force School some of the "trainers" did not even go through all these course and were promoted to the rank 3SG and subsequently to 2SG have the cheek to pump us and make us run like dogs.
And some of these "trainers" don't even need to pass IPPT... errr u can kiss my butt if you call that fair. What do these people that are bestowed the rank know about leadership? If I were to be lead by him to war the 1st 5.56mm round that is coming out of my M-16 would be for him. I would rather die in battle serving than die without any cause and lead by a person that have no skills, knowledge and leadership skills.
BTW if I've served 6 years in the Air Force as Air Defence Combatant and through rank and file and I must say this is a good idea. I've seen most of the stuff that could happen and happened.
In a situation of a war( which would never happen, Virtually), the combatant would be carry a gun with these tech guys would be behind the lines and doing servicing, no doubt the are one of the most important factor towards winning the war but if non of the combatant were to take up arms and hold the line, what's the point ?
The soldiers on the front lines are the one's that need a good leader that would be able to take them to battle and try to bring everyone in one piece... would a tech bec able to do that? Some even have running problem... hmmm....
There should only be a handful of such techs that should be bestowed with the rank and through training as any other combatant goes through so they would appreciate what the front liners are doing so in return they would know what they do would make a difference in the front line soldiers. -
Originally posted by IronBandit:If I were to be lead by him to war the 1st 5.56mm round that is coming out of my M-16 would be for him. I would rather die in battle serving than die without any cause and lead by a person that have no skills, knowledge and leadership skills.
The soldiers on the front lines are the one's that need a good leader that would be able to take them to battle and try to bring everyone in one piece... would a tech bec able to do that? Some even have running problem... hmmm....
There should only be a handful of such techs that should be bestowed with the rank and through training as any other combatant goes through so they would appreciate what the front liners are doing so in return they would know what they do would make a difference in the front line soldiers.
Well said. In the event of a war, I might, I just might, fire at 'theory sergeants' first then save some rounds for actual combat. But of course, before critics start slamming me for being inhumane and idiotic, I must clarify that I will only eliminate 'theory sergeants' who habitually exhibit ineptness in what they do (be it paper or physical work) because these are the very people who drag the combatants down. You can just imagine an obese 3SG running amok in the camp wheezing, panting and gasping for air while clutching his left chest when enemy forces infiltrate a camp. They are the ones who will pose a hindrance. -
btw... some did not wish to be in the army, can you ask army to abolish the ruling that male must serve compulsory? No right? then what right it give you to ask for such abolishment???
-
Sigh...another guy on the wrong track....the analogies you gave are different in nature. Please read my first post carefully. Thank you.Originally posted by caleb_chiang:btw... some did not wish to be in the army, can you ask army to abolish the ruling that male must serve compulsory? No right? then what right it give you to ask for such abolishment??? -
People like you who would despise and shoot your own countrymen during war are worst than animals.Originally posted by tulanboy:
Well said. In the event of a war, I might, I just might, fire at 'theory sergeants' first then save some rounds for actual combat. But of course, before critics start slamming me for being inhumane and idiotic, I must clarify that I will only eliminate 'theory sergeants' who habitually exhibit ineptness in what they do (be it paper or physical work) because these are the very people who drag the combatants down. You can just imagine an obese 3SG running amok in the camp wheezing, panting and gasping for air while clutching his left chest when enemy forces infiltrate a camp. They are the ones who will pose a hindrance.
Your anger and hatred because of some individuals in your experience does not justify that all non-combat 3SGs are incompetent.
I was neutral about this until people start saying they will shoot their own commanders. That really boils my blood.
You are not fit to be in the army. Anything the Army did wrong was not to filter out you ungrateful dogs out of enlistment. You have no pride for yourself or the uniform you wear.
We all are disgruntled with NS, but we still wear our green with pride and honor. You are a terrible person. I hope you will wake up your @!%$$#% idea or just get lost from Singapore land. Migrate to some carebear welfare country like Canada. You are not fit to be a Singaporean. Disgrace. -
Tsk tsk tsk...when did I say that all non-combat 3SGs are incompetent...but you are right on one point: I am terrible....I am terrible to soldiers who abuse their rank.Originally posted by Rephidim:People like you who would despise and shoot your own countrymen during war are worst than animals.
Your anger and hatred because of some individuals in your experience does not justify that all non-combat 3SGs are incompetent.
I was neutral about this until people start saying they will shoot their own commanders. That really boils my blood.
You are not fit to be in the army. Anything the Army did wrong was not to filter out you ungrateful dogs out of enlistment. You have no pride for yourself or the uniform you wear.
We all are disgruntled with NS, but we still wear our green with pride and honor. You are a terrible person. I hope you will wake up your @!%$$#% idea or just get lost from Singapore land. Migrate to some carebear welfare country like Canada. You are not fit to be a Singaporean. Disgrace. -
I wonder if u kena abused by those sergeant or u wished to be promoted to sergeant?Originally posted by tulanboy:Tsk tsk tsk...when did I say that all non-combat 3SGs are incompetent...but you are right on one point: I am terrible....I am terrible to soldiers who abuse their rank. -
Intent is intent, whether or not your lingo shows it.Originally posted by tulanboy:Tsk tsk tsk...when did I say that all non-combat 3SGs are incompetent...but you are right on one point: I am terrible....I am terrible to soldiers who abuse their rank.
Abuse of rank takes place at all ranks, so please take that large brush away.
Secondly, I have little respect for those who would shoot their countrymen in a time of war just because they cannot stand them. Whatever happened to military discipline and respect for your common man?
In case you forgot, the majority of our soldiers are our fellow citizens. If you believe that your commander is unfit for command, take it up the channels. Who appointed you judge, jury and executioner?
I have friends and mates who have been promoted in reservist because they perform well, and they were men, promoted to Specialist. A bad experience does not reflect the majority. -
let us be objective here once again...the existance of specs be it combat or techincal or service..is an integral part of any army be it the SAF or any other armed forces. While it is great to think we should give our combat specs the respect they are due..let us not forget that the army runs as far as its supply lines can stretch.. without your so called "theory" specs, the army will not be effective enough...as to thinking of your rear line specs..u seriously do not have any knowledge of rear line ops.. be it supply or maintenance.. we in the rear lines are also drilled in combat drills. While we do not go out and do combat patrols, or engage in taking the objective...we constantly train to respond to attacks, and engage the enemy, take them out if they are small pocket forces, or stay in fortified positions to engage and hold down the enemy while friendly forces can respond.. its not as easy as you think. you generally think tt rear echelon forces do not face attacks...well granted..we face less action compared to our armour or infantry counterparts..but the forces we face are generally enemy left over pocket forces or even commandoes..who raids our rear lines..try defending against a well armed bunch of enemy commandoes...
-
Guys, i am from the logistic side. I have seen alot of 3sgt of pes C that do not deserve the rank, yes they abuse the rank and think they are big shot. But well, for every group, there are the good ones. I have some pes A or pes B logistic Spec who take pride in their job and carry it beyond their duty.
As for some logistic vocation, it is to my understanding that they do go thru some combat training such as convey movement and such. Well, i would not say it is same as ASLC or BSLC, but u cant just ignore that.
The main reason for 3sgt to logistic side is so that they can carry out their task w/o being questioned. i have seen some combat spec or even officer questioning logistic cpl and they cant do anything because they do not have the basic rank of 3sgt.
I argee that the logistic and engineering side shd look into the selection process of its tech and spec but we do not choose them, CPC does and they aso decide the ones that go to ocs or sispec. In addition, no everyone want to become a logistic spec, they are certain few who is willing to go thru the toughest training to become a combat spec.
And lastly, for us logistic side, our pay of cos make up the biggest difference. the spec earn only what a combat cpl earn in ns. and the storeman earn juz a mere 350 per month. i hope this could make u understand us better. I am not saying u r all wrong, just that hope u can look at us in our own shoes.
p.s i was from combat side b4 i got injured and was OOC and posted to log side. i seen both side of the fence. Hope this haven add more disputes. Just want u all see more in the hidden stuffs of SAF. -
>>In the event of a war, I might, I just might, fire at 'theory sergeants' first then save some rounds for actual combat.<<
I find this line of argument quite juvenile, & you're not the only guilty party. We're currently a peacetime army, hence the chickensh!t you described. But the good news is that the SAF has consciously sought to streamline the training schedules for reservists, so that frontline personnel don't interact with rear echelon staff as much as possible. My first few ICTs were usually 3 weeks' plus, about one third spent in base camp. By the end of the cycle, almost everybody didn't even bother to take over the bunks anymore. We'd report, move out immediately for exercise, come back for IPPT & maintainence, & then outprocess. No more chickensh!t.
Frankly, I don't understand the whining over promotions & stuff, as if you guys are wannabee regulars. Ditto the present Specialist hierarchy among the other rank, on the basis that a fighting army should be kept as "young" as possible (26-27 tops in age, afterwards it's confirmed diminishing returns). In wartime, the old-school triumvirate of SGT, CPL & LCP is enough to help a company-level troop. -
TS had just been abused by some super over weight specs during ur reservist ?
Life is unfair, injustice or whatever you call it. You just have to LLST. Too bad you are not once of those sicky fat non-combat 3SG cause CMPB didn't choose you to be one.
Just chill man. You are doing ur reservist and not serving ur NS. -
Please, some of the 3SGs never asked to be 3SGs.
-
And some 3SGs take pride in what they do.
I found the line about shooting inept commanders very childish and really stupid. If the commander was just not able to perform to the point that the entire platoon/section is in the shit, if you think you can do better then just relieve him of his command. (I'm saying this in the context of combat)
By saying those lines you have thrown whatever credibility right out of the window. Hence, I feel that perhaps the SAF has not seen you fit to be able to be promoted or given a chance to be a 3SG with this kind of mentality and you are feeling sore about it. Call me disrespectful, but you don't deserve it with that line.
What a shame. -
flamer detected...
-
Last time I served 2 and the half thanks to the 3 stripes ok.Originally posted by Ristar:wat half a year? ppl serve only 2 years now wat. The men under me were all hoping they don't get promoted to corporal, coz they will end up with another half a year more to serve. Their worst fears came true, after I orded, they were sent to sispec. -
No one wanna spit out the obvious, most suitable response?
"Suck thumb, lah." ~lol~ -
hey yep bro..ur totally rite on that.. as a 3SG and pes B and a Sec Comd to boot..yeah i have seen my fair share of crappy pes C specs who cant even do a all round defence properly..not to mention doing a proper leap and bound or a proper flanking yet at the same time there are those who really deserve it...my coursemates during my MSCC, some of my men whose actions deserve the rank they wear..and even to some extent i tink i deserve my rank too..not based on juz training mind u...any one can go thru training and be "qualified". i am talking abt their attitude and apitude in their vocations. Some of my men think that cuz they are specs, they can boss their way ard some of the junior men yet they cant even differentiate a transmission from a powerpack!, and as commanders, we are the ones who should step in and keep them in line. mind u, as a 3SG talking to a fellow 3SG, its a whole new different ball game compared to talking to a Pte or Cpl, u cant pull rank..and even as they say in SAF its the appointment that counts, pulling rank is still damn common..that why as commanders we should deal with the problem.Originally posted by maodini:Guys, i am from the logistic side. I have seen alot of 3sgt of pes C that do not deserve the rank, yes they abuse the rank and think they are big shot. But well, for every group, there are the good ones. I have some pes A or pes B logistic Spec who take pride in their job and carry it beyond their duty.
As for some logistic vocation, it is to my understanding that they do go thru some combat training such as convey movement and such. Well, i would not say it is same as ASLC or BSLC, but u cant just ignore that.
.
While i can deal with my men who are crappy by making them do stuffs again and again..such as those combat drills and doing it with them to improve section standard, we cannot control how each and every single crap spec thinks and behave. its something i believe our fellow brothers in arms in the logistics/ CSS formation will have to deal with from time to time..
As for commanders, i won't say that our training is exactly the same as BSLC or ASLC, but i believe it is sufficient and fine tuned to the exact requirements of maintenance ops..which is a different ball game together compared to infantry/ combat ops. The stuff my men go thru are fine tuned for maintainance ops only..they would not be fully fit or prepared to lead an infantry section..but when it comes to personal and sectional survival in the battlefield, it should be sufficient in keeping themselves and my section alive..that i haf faith in..since i trained them, and we all were trained under the same model. -
erm.... there are lots of pes b 3sg sect comds in singapore... so there is nth to worth booting abt...
anyway... yes there are the ranks and appointments issues in saf army aside, but i viewed all personnels of all ranks instead based on "individuality". during an exercise, humans are humans... they ought to sometimes err... based on true incident... a 3sg made a mistake while leading his section, then this lcp managed to spot the error and even guide the 3sg the correction. true, a 3sg can order the men below his rank to do work... but he oso shld not goes over the line when delegating assignments. and next time, imho... any 3sg... try to speak to a pte/lcp/cpl with tactful friendly way as if he is a friend/colleague instead of viewing him as a lowly ranked suborinate that u just order him ard here and there like a maid. as the saying goes... a commander commands, but respect is to be earned. -
I would not base the quality of a non-combat 3SG largely on his/her ability to conduct defence operations or how well he can lead his team in MSR protection.
There's more to it than just the combat component. That's why we have 3SGs in staff or systems engineering roles. Heck, we need them in contract liasion and finance as well. -
Originally posted by eac:
you are totally rite man... that what functioning in a society is all abt man...to deal with tings objectively and dealing with everyone with respect.. that is the right way of doing things.. ur totally right..that why commanders should earn the respect..any tom dick and harry commander can command..not all can gain and hold the respect of their men..this is something all commanders should learn, and if you hold a rank of a spec, regardless of being a SC or not... you will have to live that talk...cuz in general...specs are higher ranked than the men..thus u haf to lead by example be in you are holding an appt or not.. that why sometimes its quite screwed up to see crap specs..regular or otherwise..
:true, a 3sg can order the men below his rank to do work... but he oso shld not goes over the line when delegating assignments. and next time, imho... [b]any 3sg... try to speak to a pte/lcp/cpl with tactful friendly way as if he is a friend/colleague instead of viewing him as a lowly ranked suborinate that u just order him ard here and there like a maid. as the saying goes... a commander commands, but respect is to be earned.[/b] -
Correct me if I'm wrong, but the impression I'm getting from most of the posts in this thread is that people think those non-combat 3SGs use some unorthodox means to get their rank so that they can show how "big" they are.
I don't know what all the non-combat 3SGs think, but I'm pretty sure some of them know in their heart that they didn't get their rank through the standard way, i.e. SISPEC, and are undeserving of their rank by the combat standard. Yes, some of them are utterly blur about the combat stuff and all, but what can they do? Is there an application for demotion of rank? There isn't.
Often, they are delegated crappy tasks that require some sort of leadership skills. Knowing that they may not be able to rise up to the occasion, they can only try their best to carry out the tasks. They are also aware that others know that they are not 3SGs from SISPEC. They are sort of caught in the middle. Too lenient, they may not be able to complete the tasks. Too strict, those of lower ranks may be unhappy about being bossed around by a 3SG not from SISPEC.
I feel that sometimes, non-combat 3SGs have their difficulties and ought to have more understanding from their fellow peers. -
This is the issue with many people I've come across. They tend to compare technical/staff 3SGs against combatant 3SGs and this is an unfair comparison.Originally posted by Zeronity:Correct me if I'm wrong, but the impression I'm getting from most of the posts in this thread is that people think those non-combat 3SGs use some unorthodox means to get their rank so that they can show how "big" they are.
I don't know what all the non-combat 3SGs think, but I'm pretty sure some of them know in their heart that they didn't get their rank through the standard way, i.e. SISPEC, and are undeserving of their rank by the combat standard. Yes, some of them are utterly blur about the combat stuff and all, but what can they do? Is there an application for demotion of rank? There isn't.
Often, they are delegated crappy tasks that require some sort of leadership skills. Knowing that they may not be able to rise up to the occasion, they can only try their best to carry out the tasks. They are also aware that others know that they are not 3SGs from SISPEC. They are sort of caught in the middle. Too lenient, they may not be able to complete the tasks. Too strict, those of lower ranks may be unhappy about being bossed around by a 3SG not from SISPEC.
I feel that sometimes, non-combat 3SGs have their difficulties and ought to have more understanding from their fellow peers.
The rank is there to help you do a certain task in your field of specialistion, be it commanding a section of Guardsmen as a Guards SC, running a manpower branch as an Admin Supervisor or being just a simple tech spec in a depot maintenance section (where the Section IC can be a MSG/2WO).
Can we look beyond simplistic comparisons and try to move away from this notion that if you have not gone through SISPEC, your rank is worthless. If that is the case, why don't we simply close down ATI, OETI, IMOS, SOL, and all the other technical command schools? If there is no respect for your fellow Specialist just because he or she is of a different PES, then even as some combat Specialists distrust their technical or staff counterparts, the opposite will also happen as well.
I have had experiences of Guards Specialists throwing their weight around in my depot and ordering my guys to perform certain tasks like transportation of mortars et al, heavy items that under SOP, they as the sending unit, are required to do by themselves. This was in spite of the fact that me and fellow Specs are there and nearly causing an accident to happen to one of the junior techs.
If we did not have our rank, this chap could have caused a lot more trouble and he might not be easily rebuffed if the ranking tech on the spot was just a CPL facing down a 2SG.
Lastly, everyone I knew never cared about the SISPEC issue. Our rank is rightly earned in our field of specialty, and it would be utterly ridiculous to rate a tech spec on the basis of an infantry leader.Sure, we may be not as proficient as them in combat operations, but can they do a better job than us at MIS or managing armament systems maintanence planning?
Now this is not to say that we are a vindictive bunch, but there are reasons why non-combatants do require a certain junior commander's rank. In the end, the only factor that matters is mutual respect for the task that everyone does.But apparently some people have a huge chip on their shoulders.