Are you willing to shoot your own friends?
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During the Tiananmen Riots in 1989 (some of you not born), Beijing Area units are placed in the city perimeter for defensive positions instead for crowd control.
While there is no official explanation, the likely scenario is to prevent units from other areas into entering Beijing and overturn the govt if need be.
I was wondering, if there is a crisis in Singapore and are you mobilised to defend the Parliament/Downtown area.
Will you fire at fellow SAF soldiers belonging to another faction? -
i guess it depends on what is at stake, and how important that is to you...
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SAF pledge their loyalty to the president, not to the PAP.
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well, you are in no position to stand by what's at stake.Originally posted by wuming78:i guess it depends on what is at stake, and how important that is to you...
the order was given and you are expected to follow it, even if your ideology is with the opposing faction. -
Well,I will not obey an unlawful order, especially one that orders me or my men to shoot unarmed citizens e.g Tiananmen.
Always remember that there are things called war crimes. And following orders is no longer a valid excuse when you are charged with a war crime breaching the Geneva Convention.
As for faction on faction, that one is a very grey area. Let's hope we don't have to get there.
Frankly, I would not know what I would do right now. -
well.. Wad hpn if one day u r activated to be a defender while chaos is everywhr.. Will u obey the 'shoot to kill' order? Knowing that ur friends might be in the other party.. or u would rather face action by refusing the order?Originally posted by LazerLordz:Well,I will not obey an unlawful order, especially one that orders me or my men to shoot unarmed citizens e.g Tiananmen.
Always remember that there are things called war crimes. And following orders is no longer a valid excuse when you are charged with a war crime breaching the Geneva Convention.
As for faction on faction, that one is a very grey area. Let's hope we don't have to get there.
Frankly, I would not know what I would do right now. -
Like I said, it depends on who is asking you to "defend" and what you are "defending".Originally posted by me_a_clone:well.. Wad hpn if one day u r activated to be a defender while chaos is everywhr.. Will u obey the 'shoot to kill' order? Knowing that ur friends might be in the other party.. or u would rather face action by refusing the order?
Always weigh your actions in the larger picture. Then again, most of my friends think like me, so there's little chance of having to face them in battle. -
Say, you are doing guard duty. You see your friend, doing guard duty also, suddenly running from the guard house towards the exit with his rifle. The guard comd asks you to stop him and shoot him(quickly explaining that he had shot someone in the guard house). What would you do?
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of course.
i dont believe in friendship.
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but authorities more likely to deploy the Police Task Force first.Originally posted by Ponders:During the Tiananmen Riots in 1989 (some of you not born), Beijing Area units are placed in the city perimeter for defensive positions instead for crowd control.
While there is no official explanation, the likely scenario is to prevent units from other areas into entering Beijing and overturn the govt if need be.
I was wondering, if there is a crisis in Singapore and are you mobilised to defend the Parliament/Downtown area.
Will you fire at fellow SAF soldiers belonging to another faction?
military intervention in state affairs very unlikely in Spore.. -
tat will be a hard decision...Originally posted by crimson soldier:Say, you are doing guard duty. You see your friend, doing guard duty also, suddenly running from the guard house towards the exit with his rifle. The guard comd asks you to stop him and shoot him(quickly explaining that he had shot someone in the guard house). What would you do?
juz a joke* may shoot the guard comd and join my friend in running
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just an exampleOriginally posted by LazerLordz:Like I said, it depends on who is asking you to "defend" and what you are "defending".
Always weigh your actions in the larger picture. Then again, most of my friends think like me, so there's little chance of having to face them in battle.
if u were activated back to storm ur old camp which have been taken over in a coup. And u know ur friend is also in the garrison. Your order is to shoot to kill. Then again. the coup hpn because of bad governing. Wad's ur decision.
As for me personally, i will not obey this order.
*abv mention is just an example. No offence taken. -
No... SAF will not even be deploy for such purposes in the first place...
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Originally posted by dragg:of course.
i dont believe in friendship. 
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I haven't even mentioned any purpose.Originally posted by soulwinner:No... SAF will not even be deploy for such purposes in the first place...
K. let me start a scenario.
PM Mr X raises GST to 50%, Pension Contribution returned at age 105.
BG ABC of 99 DIV feels that the PM has gone too far in wielding his powers and felt that for the better good of the country (to which he has sworn loyalty to), he activated his 666 BDE to surround Parliament and 777 SIR to defend Istana.
BG XYZ, a known supporter of PM Mr X saw the unbecoming behaviour of his colleague, mobilised his 444 BDE to neutralise and regain control of Parliament.
You are a soldier of 444 BDE, Will you fire upon your friend in 666 BDE?
Don't tell me Police Task Force will go parliament and set up cordon. -
Tough question. Honestly, I don't know what I'll do.
But what you're describing more has to do with riot control or, as far as involving the military goes, like the American National Guard (whose roots are in their state militias, only federalized). What's our local version? Most likely the police "ang chia" people, including their PNSmen. They're the ones who've been properly trained.
Also, if I remember correctly, those PRC soldiers who led the attacks were units mobilised from the countryside. The Beijing troops were already stood down, after being deemed too emotionally involved with the lengthy student protests. -
Strictly in within this scenario of a PM running riot and destroying the nation..Originally posted by Ponders:I haven't even mentioned any purpose.
K. let me start a scenario.
PM Mr X raises GST to 50%, Pension Contribution returned at age 105.
BG ABC of 99 DIV feels that the PM has gone too far in wielding his powers and felt that for the better good of the country (to which he has sworn loyalty to), he activated his 666 BDE to surround Parliament and 777 SIR to defend Istana.
BG XYZ, a known supporter of PM Mr X saw the unbecoming behaviour of his colleague, mobilised his 444 BDE to neutralise and regain control of Parliament.
You are a soldier of 444 BDE, Will you fire upon your friend in 666 BDE?
Don't tell me Police Task Force will go parliament and set up cordon.
No. I don't think I will fire on my friend in 666 BDE.
In any case, there should not be lethal shots fired if the situation can be salvaged. -
Hmm, let me clarify what happened in Tiananmen.
Yes, troops did fire into the civilian crowd.
But what i was referring is, during the time troops are doing crowd control other Units are mobilised in defensive positions around Beijing's perimeter should other area's unit come in to take over Beijing.
So it's almost a civil war in the making. -
Then if you are soldier of 666 BDE. Will you defend the Parliament to your last breath?Originally posted by LazerLordz:Strictly in within this scenario of a PM running riot and destroying the nation..
No. I don't think I will fire on my friend in 666 BDE.
In any case, there should not be lethal shots fired if the situation can be salvaged. -
For those posting... here's reference material...
I, having entered the service of the Republic of Singapore under the Enlistment Act, (Cap 93), do solemnly swear, sincerely and truly declare and affirm that I will:
a. bear true faith and allegiance to the Republic of Singapore
b. protect and defend the Republic of Singapore bravely and intelligently, with virtue and honour, not sparing my life blood in so doing;
c. to my last breath be devoted to the people, the country and the Government of the Republic of Singapore;
d. to be loyal to the country and the Government of the Republic of Singapore.
e. be ready at the order of the Government, to rise up to the defence of the Republic of Singapore.
f. be honourable, brave, disciplined and vigilant;
g. obey the laws of the Republic of Singapore and comply with the orders of my commanders; and
h. strictly safeguard and preserve state secrets and official information and never to disclose them. -
aim at the legs.Originally posted by crimson soldier:Say, you are doing guard duty. You see your friend, doing guard duty also, suddenly running from the guard house towards the exit with his rifle. The guard comd asks you to stop him and shoot him(quickly explaining that he had shot someone in the guard house). What would you do? -
i'm suppose to swear allegeance to the government. As such, you've got to distinct yourself when you are in green and when you are not in green. I know there seems to be a conflict of interest, but primarily your first duty as a citizen soldier is to protect the country. In this sense if some general holds a coup ( which is terribly unlikely), a soldier activated by the government to defend Key installations should still uphold the defence of the nation, no matter how sucky the situation.Originally posted by Ponders:For those posting... here's reference material...
Having said that, the SAF Creed/Pledge was written by the govt, so if you noticed alot has to do with strict compliance/obeying the government and protecting thre government in times of need.
We must be clear about government and how that is separate from the ruling party. -
ask the guard com to shoot himself. he has his own rifleOriginally posted by crimson soldier:Say, you are doing guard duty. You see your friend, doing guard duty also, suddenly running from the guard house towards the exit with his rifle. The guard comd asks you to stop him and shoot him(quickly explaining that he had shot someone in the guard house). What would you do?
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Allegiance is to the State and the Constitution, IIRC.Originally posted by sir sickolot II:iIn this sense if some general holds a coup ( which is terribly unlikely), a soldier activated by the government to defend Key installations should still uphold the defence of the nation, no matter how sucky the situation. -
Well...what if it was like in this scene in the movie "The Rock"? The Marine BG told the Navy SEAL CMDR. to stand down along with his men, but the SEAL CMDR. refused citing the Oath of Allegiance, to defend against all enemies foreign and domestic...if you were the SEAL CMDR. would you stand down?