RESPECT SIA!!!!!!!
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My CSM put mi confine on Sunday coz I never kiwi my boots.
Den my 2Lta heard about it a few weeks later. Then he told mi... never kiwi boots is not big deal, + he make u do saikang during the confinement (Carry some bloody heavy boxes... cb), and by right u r permanently Light Duties de...
So he told me... want to complain not? I help you!!!!!
RESPECT SIA!!!!! I love that guy!!!!
Classic example of NSF help NSF!!!!!!
But I never complain lah... zzz coz my csm treat us eat pizza hut tat day... Dunwan sabo him...
But I realli realli respect my 2lta. -
it's common that young officers and lao jiao csm dont see eye to eye one
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maybe he got kana by tat CSM b4 tats why..
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u know what is CSM !Originally posted by Cool-gal:maybe he was sabo tat CSM b4 tats why..
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I hope there's more to your story than that. from your brief description, one could mistakenly think that you're respecting the guy for upholding low standards.
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How to say?Originally posted by Gedanken:I hope there's more to your story than that. from your brief description, one could mistakenly think that you're respecting the guy for upholding low standards.
My 2LT is an NSF that strongly believes and agrees that NSF should just do their part and fark off. Anything extra stuff, the regulars gives you do... especially need to do OT... DUN DO. Knock off 5:30 on time.
He FIGHTS FOR THE RIGHTS OF ALL NSFs!
RESPECT! -
Oh, so it wasn't a mistake after all.
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I won't call it low standards. merely that some things are not important.Originally posted by Gedanken:I hope there's more to your story than that. from your brief description, one could mistakenly think that you're respecting the guy for upholding low standards.
and i don't see how standing up for a person who is supposed to do only light duties but was made to do heavy duty as upholding low standards -
Well...Originally posted by Gedanken:Oh, so it wasn't a mistake after all.
Not so sure bout' that...
The other day we checked the directives...
There got write the ranks of the ppl who can make ppl sign extra...
but dun hav 2WO lehz... which my CSM is...
And all these while he's been the one in - charge of making people sign extra...
Tink if wan fcuk him he jialat jialat liao... -
The directive states that specialists and warrant officers can recommend extra duties, and approval by a commissioned officer.
Usually the OC will auto-approve and gives the CSM the freedom to give extras, because it is only practical so that the CSM can help him with managing discipline.
Your CSM's informal punishment book gotta let your OC check and sign to approve that the extra given is reasonable and within guidelines.
So there's nothing wrong with your CSM "give u extra'. There's nothing to complain. Its your hero 2LT dunno what he's talking about, just smoke you to try win some khaki.
Anyway, what's the big deal about the 2LT? Respect meh? In fact I dun respect this kinda 2LT for "trying to help" sia.
As a commissioned officer, he should support and enforce discipline. Even if he feels not kiwi no need extra, he is wrong to undermine a higher appointment holder's decision to give out punishment. A CSM is higher in appointment than a PC. The most he should do is talk to CSM in private or something.
Undermining somebody higher in authority/appointment behind his back is really childish.
SAF directive is appointment is above rank. Although your CSM by-right may give him face to call the young kid "sir", but he can also whack this 2LT for discipline matters. Although very rare and usually refer to OC to talk to PCs, but he CAN do that if he want to. Your 2LT is no big deal. CSM cannot punish him, but he can refer him to senior officers who will whack this kid to wake up his idea.
But for Commissioned officers, 2LT and above, can directly GIVE YOU EXTRA, without anybody's prior approval, though he will refer you to CSM to write in the informal punishment book.
nothing wrong one...3SG also can recommend u extra...just not auto-approve only...must OC/CSM approve. -
I'll concede that the CSM was out of line assigning duties that Ayukat wasn't physically fit for. On the other hand, like it or not, maintaining dress standards is part of the job - the 2LT has no business circumventing that obligation.Originally posted by hisoka:I won't call it low standards. merely that some things are not important.
and i don't see how standing up for a person who is supposed to do only light duties but was made to do heavy duty as upholding low standards
I've served under tightarse by-the-book types and also the simply bo chup sorts. The ones that deserve respect are the ones who find the balance and get the job done without riding the men too hard. -
Jesus H Christ, given how everybody's lawyering up the SAF may as well change its name to the Singapore Legal Society.
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Dun tink the OC gives a damn sia... always hide in the dark, seldom tok to the NSFs also. Everytime smile smile tok cock to the regulars...
Oni on big formation occassions den appear tok a little... smile smile... still dare drive the SAF white car go home... dunno allowed not...
Then the 3SG also dun behave like 3SG... always play with us de... there side like oni got 2 rank...NSF and Regular...
Tat day I saw PTE scolding 1SG and 2SG sia... coz the PTE in - charge... they under him... WTF sia... screwed up place.
But I like. -
overall...the 2LT is quite silly la...what he did is not very mature.
Its not lawyering...but logically lar...as a normal human being...this 2LT shouldn't have said that. -
from what i see the 2lt was helping to complain on the unfit duty at least in part so i think there shoould be no need to deride the whole action. and standing up for his men, even if not respected is not a problem. I guess we have no quarrels on this.Originally posted by Gedanken:I'll concede that the CSM was out of line assigning duties that Ayukat wasn't physically fit for. On the other hand, like it or not, maintaining dress standards is part of the job - the 2LT has no business circumventing that obligation.
I've served under tightarse by-the-book types and also the simply bo chup sorts. The ones that deserve respect are the ones who find the balance and get the job done without riding the men too hard.
now for the extra for the kiwi. first you say the 2lt has no business circumventing that guideline and yet below you note that deserve respect entails finding balance between rule-bound and casual with not riding the men hard. Assumingthe 2lt finds that an extra for that( and maybe even the requirement to kiwi) is riding the men too hard and being too much rule bound; thus he is trying to correct it? He has business trying to prevent problems from pple who think of obligations wrongly.
Besides, i think the whole issue here is as you put it. part of the job.I doubt it can be really considered a job in the first place. -
When I read the negative posts in this thread, it reminds me how low my fellow men can get.
A was wrong in not polishing his boots to a standard acceptable by his CSM; and the CSM rightfully handed punishment - but the punishment that was handed out was disproportionate to the offence.
The 2LT was right in helping A although I agree he should not have undermined the authority of the CSM; that is the only reason that I can think of for which the 2LT might be blameworthy.
Some of you raise the argument the 2LT is not enforcing discipline. That is utter bullshit; he is disciplining the CSM. I further like the fact that the 2LT understands the feelings of the NSF - to serve and leave. A leader who understands not the feelings of his men, commands no respect - if he were to act on his own personal agenda, he would be a mere dictator.
My point is duly made by A's reaction - we can count on his support for his commander. Had the 2LT openly agreed with the CSM's decision, A would probably have has little respect for him as the CSM.
In any case, alot of you jokers don't seem to draw the line between WO and CO - the WO is a grunt, and the CO is a gentleman; together they lead our army (think good-cop, bad-cop). If either is lacking, there will be a gross loss in efficacy. -
I think your definition of childish is rather unique though.Originally posted by specialOps:The directive states that specialists and warrant officers can recommend extra duties, and approval by a commissioned officer.
Usually the OC will auto-approve and gives the CSM the freedom to give extras, because it is only practical so that the CSM can help him with managing discipline.
Your CSM's informal punishment book gotta let your OC check and sign to approve that the extra given is reasonable and within guidelines.
So there's nothing wrong with your CSM "give u extra'. There's nothing to complain. Its your hero 2LT dunno what he's talking about, just smoke you to try win some khaki.
Anyway, what's the big deal about the 2LT? Respect meh? In fact I dun respect this kinda 2LT for "trying to help" sia.
As a commissioned officer, he should support and enforce discipline. Even if he feels not kiwi no need extra, he is wrong to undermine a higher appointment holder's decision to give out punishment. A CSM is higher in appointment than a PC. The most he should do is talk to CSM in private or something.
Undermining somebody higher in authority/appointment behind his back is really childish.
SAF directive is appointment is above rank. Although your CSM by-right may give him face to call the young kid "sir", but he can also whack this 2LT for discipline matters. Although very rare and usually refer to OC to talk to PCs, but he CAN do that if he want to. Your 2LT is no big deal. CSM cannot punish him, but he can refer him to senior officers who will whack this kid to wake up his idea.
But for Commissioned officers, 2LT and above, can directly GIVE YOU EXTRA, without anybody's prior approval, though he will refer you to CSM to write in the informal punishment book.
nothing wrong one...3SG also can recommend u extra...just not auto-approve only...must OC/CSM approve.
And you would know that he hasn't talked to the csm already? + you yourself said the csm has the authority to whack the 2lt and you expect the 2lt to talk to the csm and risk his skin without any good chance to succeed? If he feels that its inappropraite, then getting ayukat to compain is the right way as that will get somethign done.
as an officer, he also has to take care and look out for his men(I won't argue about whether he should support and enforce discipline given that its point of views). -
i blame it on how the saf is set up. Besides, end of the day the lower ranks can only rely on the "laws" to protect themselves short of some widespread and serious injeustice that incites drastic actions from manyOriginally posted by Gedanken:Jesus H Christ, given how everybody's lawyering up the SAF may as well change its name to the Singapore Legal Society. -
My CSM also abit "kuku" lah...
Tat day he on leave... but bo bian got 5 ppl nid to go Medical Appt the day after... so we go take his off book from his cabinet... like we always do when he is around anyway lah...
Got it sign and done everything... but by the time we want to return...
Those kan cheong ppl of his branch... mainly the DXOs and NSFs... alreadi locked up and knocked off on time... CSM not around = early go home mah...
Den we cannot return the book... we ask our 1WO... can kip at our br... he say can... still say we S1 wat... y cannot?
Then we put there... next day CSM call... where is my off book? Then we told him everything even say the 1WO say can kip de... den he say next time again like tat I confine u ar!!!!
~!@#$%^... 1WO say can de... u 2WO oni for fark u scold us... den u want us put where...
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sometimes, junior officers tend to be a bit big headed...
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Hmm..that comment was simply unwarranted and does not contribute to any part of this discussion.Originally posted by mhcampboy:sometimes, junior officers tend to be a bit big headed...
Big headed?? I feel it's protecting his men. of course there's a fine line between over-defending which would be deemed abuse of authority and the pure concern of the welfare of his guy.
Everyone knows that not improper bearing is an offence and that we know equally better that the rules can NOT be followed like a bible. Thins must always be seen in context so there is this flexibility to go "around" the rulebook at times. So as an officer, it's his duty to take care of the welfare of his guys. The fact that he is given the power to employ that flexibility would warrant him to look at things and decide on what is right and wrong. So clearly he felt that the punishment was inappropriate and that TS should NOT be asked to carry heavy loads. So how can one say that he is childish or whatsoever.
But to look at this situation from other angles would perhaps show that the officer had no respect for the csm. But how knows what this situation is. Maybe he didn't command at all any respect in the first place. That's hypothetical... So my point is...rules and written by humans..bending the rules does not imply defiance or whatsoever. Cheers -
Surely you jest.Originally posted by rmyfrm:Some of you raise the argument the 2LT is not enforcing discipline. That is utter bullshit; he is disciplining the CSM. I further like the fact that the 2LT understands the feelings of the NSF - to serve and leave. A leader who understands not the feelings of his men, commands no respect - if he were to act on his own personal agenda, he would be a mere dictator.
This is an army, not Singapore Idol. Leaders who go out to be popular are ineffective - this 2LT has traded competence (i.e. enforcing and supporting the discipline that any army requires, which is his job as an officer) for being buddy-buddy with his men. Respect and popularity may coexist, but they are decidedly not interchangeable. -
lol.....boots oni make noise so much ar u...i got confine medics before who never clean and cut their nails...so how???u wanna kana that?
just wondering uh...
is 5 minutes too much to ask...?
to kiwi boots...
to shave?
to cut fingernails?
not enuff time i give whole weekend to do uh -
dunno what u talking
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TS must have a sad life in the army. or maybe hasnt encountered nsf officers who are big time arseholes.
from my POV, that nsf 2lt is jus trying to show off his power. or maybe all along, he had some displeasure against this WO and can't do anything abt it. using this issue as a way to deal with him. whatever it is, i feel that many young officers nowadays are only substandard, not the ones everyone used to see and respect. heck, i've even seen pes c officers cuz of some small prob. 1 even admit he keng to downgrade, so that he can slack during reservist.
WOs are the ppl working on the ground with the nsfs and have a wealth of experience with them, no matter whether it's their jobscope or dealing with ppl. i feel that they shld be given the due respect.