Luckily I served NS
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Regarding the new armour, there are technologies out there that are about 6kg with vest, packs and plates with floatation systems.
We need to train with these, better than in my days, I carried dummy mags for 6.5 years, they simulate full combat loads and we clear 10km SOC with full packs of 15kgs with an SBO of 10kgs plus 3 kg of drinking water which we try to gulp up as much as possible during the run, spilling on the way....we all know the tricks.
But to our boys now serving in Afghanistan, we need to give them the best money can buy.
A new hybrid system using the best of russian, dutch and american technologies can make the vest very light. With nano materials, lower the trauma.
I have known a chap in Afghanistan, he was shot in the chest by an SPD Dragunov round (this thing is more siong than an GPMG round with steel core!). When he got up from his near 30 sec of passing out, he was shot again in the back and throwing him 2m forward to eat dirt. He wrote in to the armor company thanking for the OTV he was wearing.
In fact, the new OTC program allows some weight transfer and you won't feel the weight as compared to our useless non ergonomic field pack.
There is a company in Singapore that developed a new nanotechnology that can produce a IIIA helmet (something that SAF do not have....our korean crap is only for fragments) that is so thin, only 3mm thick that now helmets can be made smaller and harder to hit and more comfortable to wear.....not to mention that since now less materials are used, it is also a lot lighter, some 50% less heavy max. -
SPECOPS is right, the groin guard is not for some kicking but for bullets hitting the ground some 2m to 5m in front of you. These, then coming at you will be at an angle that the body armor does not protect. It may have enough energy to get into your body and hit your liver and turn it into frie gras......
don't muck around, in a fibua situation, terrorists and enemies may have pipe bombs and molotovs that can blow up, much less to say actual grenades.
Things like these coming up at you, better don't knea soft spot. It is easier to remove 50 pieces of frags from your legs than to try to figure out through your intestines and liver.
I shot a pig once with a 9mm +P+ ranger ammo, the intestines went out for about 5m on the ground, its nasty when that happens on your buddy, it lowers your spirit.
Now that Singapore is a rich nation, UN expects us to send troops for peace keeping.....the turban guys don't like white vehicles......
Heng thing is, I kena release letters liao! -
You know whats the sad thing? Unlike the US or other coalition troops, if they find that the protection they have is inadequate, they have the option to buy non-standard issue stuff at their own expens such as the Dragon-Skin BA, enhanced gun-sights etc.etc...all aftermarket stuff. But if our boys (possibly myself in the near future) were to be sent to operate, I won't have that luxury to further protect/equip myself even if my family can afford such stuff. Thats the sad thing.
Can you imagine what you as a buddy have to tell his parents if he gets waxed during an ops? "Sorry Sir, Mdm...we were told to use only the standard issue equipment." I say that any soldier that goes into battle deserves the best that money can buy,even if the state doesn't sponsor them, at least make available this avenue for them to procure at their own expense. Life first...money is a secondary issue when faced with a torrential rain of lead. -
SPECOPS is right, the groin guard is not for some kicking but for bullets hitting the ground some 2m to 5m in front of you. These, then coming at you will be at an angle that the body armor does not protect. It may have enough energy to get into your body and hit your liver and turn it into frie gras......
For urban ops, sure. For jungle warfare, I'm more skeptical.
The "thorough" body amor you're describing is something I envision, say, what today's SWAT teams would wear. If the SAF wants to outfit it for its infantry, let's first see what kind of formal battle strategy it adopts for. For example, there's a fundamental difference between siege warfare (i.e. attritional street fighting, which was what the DSTA usually alludes to when introducing all the new technology) & "shock & awe" conflict (i.e. shock/assault troops, which is what our RDF units -- & given the limited manpower, perhaps the whole combat side -- shall be deployed for).
That said, as with a lot of the Robocop equipment at 3 SIR now, IMO things like groin & shoulder armor have limited practical use in the "bush." The latter environment has its own indigenous conditions & requires a completely different way of engagement fire -- which, if you've ever trained alongside US or Australian troops before, we South-east Asian armies are actually the lao chiao peng. You'll more likely to get a sucking chest wound or a bullet hole in the head instead, cuz any enemy round that hits the soil or a nearby tree will likely be bored there instead of ricocheting.But if our boys (possibly myself in the near future) were to be sent to operate, I won't have that luxury to further protect/equip myself even if my family can afford such stuff. Thats the sad thing.
Unless you're saying you've been deployed to Timor Leste or Afghanistan, aren't you fantasizing a tad too much here? For argument's sake, I'll call your bluff so show me your proof. -
Despite all our "realistic" training, soldiers can still make mistakes...
Not enough cover from enemy fire (WHAT!! You protect the tree or the tree protect you!!!), friendly fire (try not to get get in their way), shocked soldiers (wide eyed stupid when enemy firing at you), a sudden surge of heroism and plain unlucky... gets soldiers killed...
Good body armour = a second chance...
Better to have grunts living to tell stories to their grandchildren than to give post humous award. -
We have to expect further involvement in peacekeeping operations in the future.
There's no turning back. -
Got weapons and ammunitions, everyone is a godOriginally posted by LazerLordz:We have to expect further involvement in peacekeeping operations in the future.
There's no turning back.
Who says no turning back?
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ey what u mean by lao chiao peng?
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Nice................
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how did you get to fire live outside range??Originally posted by skiver23:I shot a pig once with a 9mm +P+ ranger ammo, the intestines went out for about 5m on the ground, its nasty when that happens on your buddy, it lowers your spirit.
misfire or what?? -
Well...call my bluff as much as you want. Lest you believe that we live in a bubble and nothing happening beyond our shores will actually affect us. if that were the case...i say the whole of SAF should juz close down. Peace-keepin operations and conflicts other den war are the "in" thing this days. If you're expecting to see combat of the Korean/Vietnam war era where people fight for months and years...sorry dude...not gonna happen. It simply can't be sustained. More likely is that it will be a short scale intense fight lasting weeks tops with plenty of "policing" work after that. Look at Iraq...they were owned by US and Coalition, but till now, they have to patrol the streets. If there's a day we will be called to ops...I don't think it will be of much difference.Originally posted by blitzonic:Unless you're saying you've been deployed to Timor Leste or Afghanistan, aren't you fantasizing a tad too much here? For argument's sake, I'll call your bluff so show me your proof. -
Its true that we need to gear up for OOTW (Operations Other Than War).
The likelihood of SAF's involvement in OOTW is no longer a "if" but "when". When it happens...
Nowadays, lots of conflicts, even disaster relief in unstable regions may have the danger of guerillas or anti-Singapore troops firing at us. OOTW has been ongoing and will continue to be part of SAF operations.
The problem with OOTW is that we can't go in and whack and kill, but yet we cannot be naive to think there's no danger. We need to be armed to respond and armoured to be protected anytime. -
Precisely the reason that I'm for BA. Sometimes the ROEs maybe overly inflexible for the man on the ground to exercise better judgment of it to decide when it goes out the window. He will probably be thinking, can i fire at him because he's armed? Can i fire at him because he's weapon is pointed in my direction or can I fire at him as he's shooting in my direction. and you never know when it can and will happen. Thus i'm in for BA.Originally posted by specialOps:Its true that we need to gear up for OOTW (Operations Other Than War).
The likelihood of SAF's involvement in OOTW is no longer a "if" but "when". When it happens...
Nowadays, lots of conflicts, even disaster relief in unstable regions may have the danger of guerillas or anti-Singapore troops firing at us. OOTW has been ongoing and will continue to be part of SAF operations.
The problem with OOTW is that we can't go in and whack and kill, but yet we cannot be naive to think there's no danger. We need to be armed to respond and armoured to be protected anytime. -
Well...call my bluff as much as you want. Lest you believe that we live in a bubble and nothing happening beyond our shores will actually affect us. if that were the case...i say the whole of SAF should juz close down. Peace-keepin operations and conflicts other den war are the "in" thing this days. If you're expecting to see combat of the Korean/Vietnam war era where people fight for months and years...sorry dude...not gonna happen. It simply can't be sustained. More likely is that it will be a short scale intense fight lasting weeks tops with plenty of "policing" work after that. Look at Iraq...they were owned by US and Coalition, but till now, they have to patrol the streets. If there's a day we will be called to ops...I don't think it will be of much difference.
No proof, huh. Don't talk rubbish then, unless you want to look like a fool.
SAF peacekeeping missions actually began with my generation, starting from 1989 (to Namibia, if correct), the year after I ORDed. Such ops were, & remain, voluntary among conscripts & reservists; there's no constitutional provision nor SAF amendment bill that allows for wholescale overseas deployments, as yet.
We'll see where this ambitious 3G Army plans take us. To clarify again, the attritional-warfare scenario was postulated by DSTA, not me. Of course, their rationalizations are partly based on the equipment they develop needing to conform to a certain basic, or lowest-common denominator usage level. We've yet to hear a comprehensive account of the new urban-ops doctrine, but it does look like a natural follow-on on the last one (the 24-hour battlefield). Like LazerLord noted, it does portend for higher intensity missions in the future -- even if only training EXs -- rather than for your suggested peacekeeping deployments. -
Blitzonic,
To clarify, I was thinking along the lines of actual HADR deployments that might take place in less than friendly zones.
Perhaps Timor Leste was the kindergarten so to speak.. -
Train as you fight, fight as you train.Originally posted by blitzonic:No proof, huh. Don't talk rubbish then, unless you want to look like a fool.
SAF peacekeeping missions actually began with my generation, starting from 1989 (to Namibia, if correct), the year after I ORDed. Such ops were, & remain, voluntary among conscripts & reservists; there's no constitutional provision nor SAF amendment bill that allows for wholescale overseas deployments, as yet.
We'll see where this ambitious 3G Army plans take us. To clarify again, the attritional-warfare scenario was postulated by DSTA, not me. Of course, their rationalizations are partly based on the equipment they develop needing to conform to a certain basic, or lowest-common denominator usage level. We've yet to hear a comprehensive account of the new urban-ops doctrine, but it does look like a natural follow-on on the last one (the 24-hour battlefield). Like LazerLord noted, it does portend for higher intensity missions in the future -- even if only training EXs -- rather than for your suggested peacekeeping deployments.
Enough said. If you think that BA is a bloody waste of time and money for the majority FINE. But i will tell u whats a bigger waste! Spending money of all the techie witch shit like carrying a bloody computer/pda in your pack with some lcd screen hanging off your helmet that requires battery power to work. The system no matter how advanced, requires batteries to work. And if BA is considered useless to a fool like me...perhaps you would like to talk to the fools in DSTA and get them to wake up their idea. Saving lives is definitely more important than saving money on necessity items. To those whom believe that quality training investment is better den investment on equipment, sorry to say in this day and age, both works together. Voluntary or not our participation, i strongly believe each and every trooper deserves the best protection that we can afford considering that he/she is putting their lives on the line for us. -
No we do not wear there everyday....we're issued but we do not wear it everyday....we seldom wear during trainings also....Originally posted by Rockhound:Do what MRF and CBRE troops do
wear personal equipment every day
8-5 thing....
long 4...
BA....
onli take out after 5
only time CBRD troops wear it is during parades or certain trainings and conditioning.
EOD guys however wear it pretty damn often lol.
We seldom wear long 4.Usually MOPP4 or polo Tshirt
Anyway half the time during ermm parardes we removed the metal plates
to heavy ah.Gotta admit our black BA looks cool though haha -
But do the BA really serves it's purpose?
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If you think that BA is a bloody waste of time and money for the majority FINE.
Huh? Temper, temper ... ~lol~ -
Nothing constructive to add?
I've got a question though, anybody have any idea about the "liquid" armour's development? -
You mean to say that we are going to go peace keeping to more dangerous places like iraq?Originally posted by LazerLordz:To clarify, I was thinking along the lines of actual HADR deployments that might take place in less than friendly zones.
Perhaps Timor Leste was the kindergarten so to speak..
Confirm will happen ornot?Originally posted by LazerLordz:We have to expect further involvement in peacekeeping operations in the future.
There's no turning back.
Same as my first quote, You mean to say that we are going to go peace keeping to more dangerous places like iraq? (You sure PEACE KEEPING??? And not like the singapore army medics go to afghanistan and give dental treatment?) I mean like c'mon. Go there to give dental treatment? pathetic in a way...Originally posted by skiver23:Now that Singapore is a rich nation, UN expects us to send troops for peace keeping.....the turban guys don't like white vehicles...... -
confirm when u NS u in army or not??Originally posted by Alphapunk2:Same as my first quote, You mean to say that we are going to go peace keeping to more dangerous places like iraq? (You sure PEACE KEEPING??? And not like the singapore army medics go to afghanistan and give dental treatment?) I mean like c'mon. Go there to give dental treatment? pathetic in a way... -
really?Originally posted by |-|05|:No we do not wear there everyday....we're issued but we do not wear it everyday....we seldom wear during trainings also....
only time CBRD troops wear it is during parades or certain trainings and conditioning.
EOD guys however wear it pretty damn often lol.
We seldom wear long 4.Usually MOPP4 or polo Tshirt
Anyway half the time during ermm parardes we removed the metal plates to heavy ah.Gotta admit our black BA looks cool though haha
mrf under old csm make it a point to wear it SOP during office hours
how times have changed -
Knew this is coming.. was involve in the trials at the end of last yr during my NS days, wearing the Armour vest and doing a series of tests(eg. fast marches, running) together with full battle order, n its really full battle order.. i can tell u its no joke... Lucky I'm with the scouts, so no need for tat.. heng ar...
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I came from one of the SIR which is new and have a very good branding, we were the ones who went for real non-sensitive operations island wide, the BA were a necessity mainly the reasons: 1) Basic protection for troops, 2) Confidence for the troops 3) Reflects professionalism and pride of our army and lastly 4) Make the investors and visitors feel safe that our troops are well armed and equipped to protect them. But BA for conventional warfare, sounds weird, thought dunno how well the lads can handle that.. still prefer to walk ba long long in the jungle wif full battle order..