Sign On: RSAF AEO
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Hi all,
I need some advice regarding the signing on issue. Im will be graduating in May 2008, with an expected 2nd class lower in mechanical engineering, and during my army days, i am a specialist. I understand that i have to go thru ocs, as a conversion from spec to officer, however at age 25 im starting to doubt my fitness. Anyone have any idea what is life like in ocs, signing on to be an AEO? Would there be a shorter course, or do i have to complete the full CHIONG till i flat on the floor 9mths training, and be like a low life trainee that kenna takan like siao. Afterall i have completed my Ns training, as a recruit a trainee and a Armour specialist. Was hoping that there is no 2nd round. haha
My guess is lots of running and lessons to attend to. anyone similar to my situation now and knows what is going to happen in the course of my career as an AEO?
Lastly was wondering whether is there still any lump sum given as a sign on fee. I heard from some specialist in the airforce that had a lump sum when they signed on.
Any advice would be appreciated.
Many thanks,
Nolatari
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Hi guys, Thanks for reading this thread,i have read enough stuff from other threads about Airforce in general and AEOs. From what i have read and heard, it seems to me that AEOs are generally 'useless'. With no hands on experience etc etc. Being a specialist myself during my Ns, i would say, yes, every single repair/maintanence of the armour vehicle (for example), are done by their drivers and vehicle commanders with the help of the workshop. With officers "certifying" that the veh is fit for mission. I was wondering whether is the culture acceptable in airforce, if for example a LTA decides to roll up his sleeve and join his man for repair works. Im definately able to do that because i know what is it like to be a specialist and working ur guts out. But was wondering whether will circumstances allow it. Apart from approving leave and certifying the plane fit for flying, i guess there must be more that an AEO can do right? Any comments? Thanks for reading the thread. Regards, Nolatari
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Not every single repair/maintanence of A vehs is done by drivers and VCs.
AEO is abt managing your team (to account for things), definitely little hands-on because got lao jiao enciks there u stand no chance. The only time u hands-on is during your course and not during plane's turnaroundtime because there is simply no time.
45 years old there will be a 2nd career transition for all officers in RSAF unless you are a scholar, max 47 years old...
Think about it, understand the AEO renumeration is attractive but do consider a career in ST Aero, SASCO or equilavent companies if you want to pursue a enriching in aerospace industry.
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Unless you are signing on as a SAFOS, i think there's no point in signing on but if you are thinking of air force, there are a big no. of one star positions there and very few scholars, you may have a higher chance of making it but I don't think people who did not get one star end up having a very good life after 45.
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Originally posted by I_love_my_toilet:
45 years old there will be a 2nd career transition for all officers in RSAF unless you are a scholar, max 47 years old...
To be more accurate, I think what you meant to say is that all officers in SAF have a FORCED retirement age at 45. Not all of them manage to find a second career, and i know many who end up being jobless for years, or becoming taxi drivers. This is due to the fact that many people still have a poor impression of farmer regulars. http://uncyclopedia.org/wiki/Singapore_Armed_Forces look at what this person wrote about what ex regulars end up doing as their 2nd career. I also heard of a number of professionals who tell me when they see the resume of an ex regular, they throw the application into the dustbin!
Ok I don't think scholars retire at 47. All the service chiefs and LGs so far retired at 45 (ng yat chung) and they are LGs and service chiefs!!! Ng Yat Chung left at 45 at LG rank to go to Temasek to be MD. Lim Chuan Poh left at 45 with the rank of LG to become education perm sec. Same for two star service chiefs. Never heard of the 47 thing. And I don't think scholars care for that pathetic 2 extra years because it virtually makes no difference, and more importantly they have a problem with fending off offers for 2nd career way before they hit 45, don't think they care for the 2 yrs.
Eg BG Bernard Tan left way before retirement age after he received a good enough offer from DBS. I heard rumours he left after he was upset that he was passed over for COA position for MG Neo KH. Before he left heard that he received an offer to take over another ex COA MG Lim Neo Chian as CEO of STB which he wanted to take up, but the latter decided to sign another term so that fell through.
In fact the more high flying the scholar is, the earlier he will leave the force because they will be "stolen" by the ministries even before they reach 45 cos the ministries want to grab them eg Peter Ho (head of civil service), Willie Tan Yoke Meng (who became a DS and taken out of SAF way before he was 45).
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Thanks for the input! Regards, Nolatari
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Originally posted by cookiecookie:
To be more accurate, I think what you meant to say is that all officers in SAF have a FORCED retirement age at 45. Not all of them manage to find a second career, and i know many who end up being jobless for years, or becoming taxi drivers. This is due to the fact that many people still have a poor impression of farmer regulars. http://uncyclopedia.org/wiki/Singapore_Armed_Forces look at what this person wrote about what ex regulars end up doing as their 2nd career. I also heard of a number of professionals who tell me when they see the resume of an ex regular, they throw the application into the dustbin!
Ok I don't think scholars retire at 47. All the service chiefs and LGs so far retired at 45 (ng yat chung) and they are LGs and service chiefs!!! Ng Yat Chung left at 45 at LG rank to go to Temasek to be MD. Lim Chuan Poh left at 45 with the rank of LG to become education perm sec. Same for two star service chiefs. Never heard of the 47 thing. And I don't think scholars care for that pathetic 2 extra years because it virtually makes no difference, and more importantly they have a problem with fending off offers for 2nd career way before they hit 45, don't think they care for the 2 yrs.
Eg BG Bernard Tan left way before retirement age after he received a good enough offer from DBS. I heard rumours he left after he was upset that he was passed over for COA position for MG Neo KH. Before he left heard that he received an offer to take over another ex COA MG Lim Neo Chian as CEO of STB which he wanted to take up, but the latter decided to sign another term so that fell through.
In fact the more high flying the scholar is, the earlier he will leave the force because they will be "stolen" by the ministries even before they reach 45 cos the ministries want to grab them eg Peter Ho (head of civil service), Willie Tan Yoke Meng (who became a DS and taken out of SAF way before he was 45).
about SAF officers bcoming taxi drivers....it was true in the past. for sure. met some myself! i noe an OM from my jc who was a major in the army. my uncle who is a construction supervisor in indon was also an army officer. and some uncle i met who is doing AV work in SCGS.but then again, that was the past. those guys were from the amongst the pioneers of SAF. have things changed today? i dunno. my friend's dad who juz retired a few yrs back looks quite good running his own business. upon retirement, he bought a condo and a big new car. fantastic.
not really sure if things have improved now. but one thing for sure....once u sign on....it's very dangerous after 45.
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Originally posted by del_co:
about SAF officers bcoming taxi drivers....it was true in the past. for sure. met some myself! i noe an OM from my jc who was a major in the army. my uncle who is a construction supervisor in indon was also an army officer. and some uncle i met who is doing AV work in SCGS.but then again, that was the past. those guys were from the amongst the pioneers of SAF. have things changed today? i dunno. my friend's dad who juz retired a few yrs back looks quite good running his own business. upon retirement, he bought a condo and a big new car. fantastic.
not really sure if things have improved now. but one thing for sure....once u sign on....it's very dangerous after 45.
What's OM? and is AV = audio visual?
Eh buying a condo and a new car at 45 is not good news you know. It's pretty sad.
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Originally posted by del_co:
not really sure if things have improved now. but one thing for sure....once u sign on....it's very dangerous after 45.
I agree.
An ATA holder I know, who retired as a full COL did manage to find a job elsewhere, in one of the ministries cos he retired at a time when the economy was red-hot (last yr) and the government ministries had many many many vacancies, the highest no. ever in a decade.
He became a deputy director (there're many "directors" in a ministry so it's not a high position) in one of the less vital ministries (think it's MCYS or MND) and it's a position that commensurates with MAJ (if you're a high flier) or LTC I believe. I know a LTC at only 32, a SAFOS holding a higher position (director level for staff tour) in a much more vital ministry like defence or finance than that retired COL. There are SAFOS MAJs in their late 20s who hold deputy director office in much more vital ministries. It's like being super downgraded after this 45 yr old COL went to become a civilian.
Unless an officer can hit at least one-star with SAFOS scholarship, a farmer grad who didn't do too badly can expect a big downgrade when he crosses over to CV, and that is only when he is lucky when the economy is very good.
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Hi cookie, The future seems bleak, if i would to sign on as a farmer grad. It is definately true that scholarship holders have paths planned for them in advance, while farmer officers get to hold less impt appointments during their staff tour. Lets say, if, during ocs, i work hard enough to attain the sword of honour or merit, would it do me any good? Or would i still be in the farmer grade. Regards, Nolatari
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Originally posted by Nolatari:
Hi cookie,
The future seems bleak, if i would to sign on as a farmer grad. It is definately true that scholarship holders have paths planned for them in advance, while farmer officers get to hold less impt appointments during their staff tour.
Lets say, if, during ocs, i work hard enough to attain the sword of honour or merit, would it do me any good? Or would i still be in the farmer grade.
Regards,
NolatariHi Nolatar, have you been admitted to OCS yet?
A lot of farmer regulars get a full Col but not all do lah, most retire at LTC but farmer grads retiring at COL is also common enough. Cos SAF employs so many people, even if it's 75 to 25, or 70 to 30, it is also a very high statistic when translated to absolute numbers. COL is a high rank to some people, each person has different expectations and standards. If that is ok with you, I don't think there are compelling reasons to stop you from signing on.
We are just arming you with more facts that may relate to the long - term, such as job longetivity and post retirement plans.
Are you confident of getting the same prospects when you retire that commensurate with the rank that you retire at? I know of farmer grads who retire at COL, very good to most people, but their post retirement fate is lower than the appointment and rank which they retired at when a direct apple to apple comparison is done. And that is during good times. If times were not so fabulous like last year, I doubt that full COL could have gotten that job in the ministry. The ministries have so many young, wide-eyed AOs and SAFOS/SPFOS/OMS scholars on the MAP doing their tour as deputy director in their late 20s and early 30s.
It is this that should bother you more - post retirement fate not commensurating with the highest rank you left SAF with (like a downgrade when you come out of the uniform). Its understandable because the work they do may not be totally transferable, not 100% to the civilian world and there are simply too many of them, so they cannot expect always a job with the same level of appointment that he had at retirement.
And it's not SAF's fault. SAF is not responsible for securing a second career for its officers. Its higher pay for uniformed officers vs CV (pls compare the pay of an uniformed officer vs a DXO in Mindef and you will know what i mean) is already meant to compensate for this.
If we taxpayers are shelling out our hard earned top dollar to pay this premium so that SAF is a young force, the people who sign on know this and take it up willingly, which means they are responsible for bearing the side- effect too.
If they want to enjoy the premium, they should bear the side effect. How can anyone have their cake and eat it too? That's what I think, for someone who chose not to sign on and is paying the gov taxes that pay for this premium.
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Originally posted by Nolatari:
while farmer officers get to hold less impt appointments during their staff tour.
Hi nolatari, pls don't quote me on this and you jumbled up the facts a bit. First, the example i raised, the guy's deputy director position in the ministry is his civilian, post-retirement-from-SAF job. Not his staff tour when he was in the SAF! I said that he became a deputy director in one of the less key ministries, eg MCYS, how can SAF officers do their staff tour in OTHER ministries beside Mindef? Aiyo.
I was raising the example, of how the civilian position he got after he retired as a full COL at 45, is actually lower than existing office holders of SAF officers who are much younger and holding a lower rank (MAJ/LTC) doing their staff tour.
Basically it is the post retirement fate you should be worried about, as judging from the predecessors you can expect a 'downgrade' in civilian appointment when you transit into the civilian world.
He left as a full COL, and managed to snag a CV post in a ministry, albeit not so key one. And that appointment could very well be a MAJ or LTC appointment, held by people more than 10 yrs younger than him.
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Hi cookie, Sorry for the misunderstanding,i understand your point on the post retirement. When i was mentioning about the staff tour, im talking about grad farmers in general, they do not get impt appointments as compared to scholar officers. Gathered this info from some of my officer friends in the army. Thanks again for the help. I have applied for the position as an AEO, and awaiting their reply. Think and consider so much, they might not want me too...haha Definately the posts from you guys help me think through it better. Regards, Nolatari
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Originally posted by cookiecookie:
What's OM? and is AV = audio visual?
Eh buying a condo and a new car at 45 is not good news you know. It's pretty sad.
why? OM = school's operations manager...AV yes, audio visual lab. -
Originally posted by Nolatari:
Hi cookie,
Sorry for the misunderstanding,i understand your point on the post retirement. When i was mentioning about the staff tour, im talking about grad farmers in general, they do not get impt appointments as compared to scholar officers. Gathered this info from some of my officer friends in the army.
Thanks again for the help.
I have applied for the position as an AEO, and awaiting their reply. Think and consider so much, they might not want me too…haha
Definately the posts from you guys help me think through it better.
Regards,
NolatariMay I know why do you want to sign on? As in what are your main motivations?
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Originally posted by cookiecookie:To be more accurate, I think what you meant to say is that all officers in SAF have a FORCED retirement age at 45. Not all of them manage to find a second career, and i know many who end up being jobless for years, or becoming taxi drivers. This is due to the fact that many people still have a poor impression of farmer regulars. http://uncyclopedia.org/wiki/Singapore_Armed_Forces look at what this person wrote about what ex regulars end up doing as their 2nd career. I also heard of a number of professionals who tell me when they see the resume of an ex regular, they throw the application into the dustbin!
Ok I don't think scholars retire at 47. All the service chiefs and LGs so far retired at 45 (ng yat chung) and they are LGs and service chiefs!!! Ng Yat Chung left at 45 at LG rank to go to Temasek to be MD. Lim Chuan Poh left at 45 with the rank of LG to become education perm sec. Same for two star service chiefs. Never heard of the 47 thing. And I don't think scholars care for that pathetic 2 extra years because it virtually makes no difference, and more importantly they have a problem with fending off offers for 2nd career way before they hit 45, don't think they care for the 2 yrs.
Eg BG Bernard Tan left way before retirement age after he received a good enough offer from DBS. I heard rumours he left after he was upset that he was passed over for COA position for MG Neo KH. Before he left heard that he received an offer to take over another ex COA MG Lim Neo Chian as CEO of STB which he wanted to take up, but the latter decided to sign another term so that fell through.
In fact the more high flying the scholar is, the earlier he will leave the force because they will be "stolen" by the ministries even before they reach 45 cos the ministries want to grab them eg Peter Ho (head of civil service), Willie Tan Yoke Meng (who became a DS and taken out of SAF way before he was 45).
hhaha the website is funny -
My brother had signed on as an AEO after graduating NTU in the early '90s. It was the natural route for engin grads targeting the RSAF, although in his case he was already a commissioned officer during NS. I didn't follow his career that closely during the early years, but my impression was that 'farmer' AEOs would mostly specialize in the logistical side of the service arm. Presumably, my bro had been trained as such at AETI after signing on; I know he'd ultimately went on to do a Masters in Public Admin (or something like that) on the side. He's currently a LTC, not a high flier but has always held deskbound appointments over most of his career. He'd rather quickly made CPT - about a year into his contract - as I recall. BTW, like with all regulars, one's vocation won't be as significant as the command branch he belongs to (the SAF equivalent is 'formation'), eg. combat, Air Defence, manpower, manpower, etc. I'm doubtful such regulars will be that literally hands-on as you think either. That'll be more the jobs of NCOs & NSFs while, for officers, presumably only during their course time. If you have to go through OCS first, you'll attend AETI during your Professional Term after finishing the earlier phrases with the other NSF cadets. There'll likely be further technical upgrading courses too, as your career progresses.
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Originally posted by blitzonic:
I didn’t follow his career that closely during the early years, but my impression was that ‘farmer’ AEOs would mostly specialize in the logistical side of the service arm. He’d rather quickly made CPT – about a year into his contract – as I recall.
BTW, like with all regulars, one’s vocation won’t be as significant as the command branch he belongs to (the SAF equivalent is ‘formation’
, eg.
combat, Air Defence, manpower, manpower, etc. I’m doubtful such
regulars will be that literally hands-on as you think either.
That’ll be more the jobs of NCOs & NSFs while, for officers,
presumably only during their course time. If you have to go through
OCS first, you’ll attend AETI during your Professional Term after finishing the
earlier phrases with the other NSF cadets.
There’ll likely be further technical upgrading courses too, as your
career progresses.1)'Farmer' refers to non SAFOS, which means your bro is one of them. The term was coined up in the 1970s.
2)Also, all graduates from all kinds of universities, regardless of "class" in SAF, get their CPT rank 1 yr after graduation. It is of no indication of how well one's doing.
nolatari, the emphasis should not be worrying whether you can get in now. The thing is SAF takes in people more readily than people want to join so getting in is a piece of cake. Just make sure that you do not end up as a taxi driver in 20 yrs time.
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Regular officers won't be that condemned down the line, lah. lol The higher your rank (i.e. organizational experience), the more the GICs & the NGOs will want you to work for them. If still no lobang, then can still prepare ahead via MINDEF's career-change tieups with the outside world. Oops, just googled that the scheme for senior officers, aka "Career Transition Partnership", has formally ended although the consultant company involved is still advertising. Still, such arrangements look permanant; the days of zero safety net for lifers are gone, even as they're required to retire "young." (MINDEF also has signed MOUs with ASPRI, AAIS & ASMI for their SAF, RSAF & RSN wospecs.) Of course, one can leave the service earlier by not reupping, & join the civilian market "blindly" instead. But if the TS is interested in, say, aerospace technology & hopes to acquire the knowledge (on taxpayer's money) before working with an MNC, then he'd better ask the RSAF recruitment people how much such a military-career path can be realized. Or else, he'd better off looking at DSTA or equivalent, if he likes the technical stuff that much. I'll also advise him to look more at the longer-term picture. If he signs on, his future shall be a middle-management bureaucrat, to put it crudely. (AEOs manage the hardware - hence the engineering requisite - while their AOO counterparts specialize more on the ops side.) He won't make MAJ until he's nearing 30, but shall spend the 3-4 years beforehand "apprenticing" for the responsibilities (upon making CPT). Shouldn't just adopt a junior-officer mindset in this sense, as if it's still NS.
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Originally posted by blitzonic:
Regular officers won’t be that condemned down the line, lah. lol
The higher your rank (i.e. organizational experience), the more the GICs & the NGOs will want you to work for them. If still no lobang, then can still prepare ahead via MINDEF’s career-change tieups with the outside world. Oops, just googled that the scheme for senior officers, aka “Career Transition Partnership”, has formally ended although the consultant company involved is still advertising. Still, such arrangements look permanant; the days of zero safety net for lifers are gone, even as they’re required to retire “young.” (MINDEF also has signed MOUs with ASPRI, AAIS & ASMI for their SAF, RSAF & RSN wospecs.)
Of course, one can leave the service earlier by not reupping, & join the civilian market “blindly” instead. But if the TS is interested in, say, aerospace technology & hopes to acquire the knowledge (on taxpayer’s money) before working with an MNC, then he’d better ask the RSAF recruitment people how much such a military-career path can be realized. Or else, he’d better off looking at DSTA or equivalent, if he likes the technical stuff that much.
I’ll also advise him to look more at the longer-term picture. If he signs on, his future shall be a middle-management bureaucrat, to put it crudely. (AEOs manage the hardware – hence the engineering requisite – while their AOO counterparts specialize more on the ops side.) He won’t make MAJ until he’s nearing 30, but shall spend the 3-4 years beforehand “apprenticing” for the responsibilities (upon making CPT). Shouldn’t just adopt a junior-officer mindset in this sense, as if it’s still NS.
Hi. You may wish to back what you say because it is his future on the line, not yours? Talk is cheap and anyone here can give their 2 cents worth but he's the one bearing the consequences now and the future.
GIC is Government Investment Corp. It's the agency that manages our country's reserves.
Did you mean GLC (Government Linked Corp)? and not GIC? And NGO? NGO is just a term bandied about frequently in economics at A level and uni and all it means is "Non Governmental Organisation" which does not mean or say anything at all- All non GLCs in the private sector is a NGO!You're basically not saying much.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Non-governmental_organization
Are you SURE that our GLCs (I hope you meant GLC because GIC would make no sense at all in your sentence) employ our ex farmer regulars by the bucketloads? Pls substantiate this because I know this to be false. You made a lot of assumptions without any evidence, and practically just blurted that without giving any substantiation, while more than one person including me in this thread have know ex regulars who ended up doing odd jobs.
I know one retired as LTC, ended up opening his own small PR co. (the type that hire a few people only) and buying a heartland condo in Clementi when the property prices were very low 10 yrs after he retired.
One retired as COL, I know managed to get a job in one of the ministries, holding a portfolio that is lower than what a young, late 20s or early 30s MAP associate would hold. Quite sad for a 45 yr old but no choice.
The rest were taxi drivers, school discipline masters and another one works in admn department of JC.
nolatari: since you like the engineering bit so much you should be going to DSTA instead. It's an engineering company. And if engineering is your passion, esp aerospace engineering, you may like to know that there is a boom happening now in the aerospace engineering industry. Players include ST Aerospace, you can also try SIA Engineering, ST Kinetics, and a lot of private sector players. SAF is for people into command and if you didn't even go to OCS, I don't think command was ever up your alley or your cup of tea.
Ppl are more desperate to sign on during recession. That's why during the slowdown from 2000 to 2003, the no. of ppl signing on SAF and MOE for teaching went up sharply. Now is boom time for aerospace engineering industry, of all times that you are FORCED to sign on, this is the least of all.
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WOSPECS do not have to worry, they do not have to retire young so that's the good thing abt signing on as Spec. Retirement age for WOSPEC is the same as civilian job except that they will never get fired no matter how crappy they are (unlike in private sector).
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Not really, these days alot of specs dun get to continue after the 1st 10 yrs so theres no such thing as a confirm career till the age of 55 and 55 is only for WO, MSG n below its 50 i think or something lower. Not sure but i think its not the same.
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I thought as long as they get the 2nd contract, they can confirm stay all the way liao. That was my understanding in my NS days. Maybe someone in SAF can confirm. What's the likelihood of not getting the 2nd contract?
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Its no longer easy to get the 2nd contract cos the army seems to be downsizing. Quite a few of the regulars of my time didn't get their 2nd contract and had to leave service as a SSG. I think in the 2 yrs i was in unit more left than the number that were able to carry on.
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Hi guys, SAF aside.. im actually encouraged by my prof to take a masters or phd in engineering, becuz im currently doing my fyp in one of a*star research center. Is it better off working in say, DSTA or ST kinetics for a year or two first after i grad(hons), or getting a masters first and joining DSTA later with lesser engineering experience as compared to my peers joining the workforce earlier. As for airforce, i don't think they will provide any scholarship for further studies? I understand that recruitment for officers have a cap age of 27. cookie: Thanks for your concern. Blitzonic: Thanks for the input, and the experience from your bro. Regards, Nolatari