Originally posted by deathmaster:
i don't think they check thoroughly enough during the pre-enlistment checkup. it was kind of sloppily carried out, checking for only common medical conditions.for many people, that is their first "full body checkup", and they might not know of any medical condition they might have. i have a friend who lived normally for many years, even doing napfa tests, and finding out that he got 3 holes in the heart.
i'm not saying the ecg does not check out heart condition, only pointing out that many parts of the body are "neglected" in the med check.
like yamizi had mentioned, there can be problems with a person's kidneys, liver, intestines, brains etc. any of these problems can become a serious medical condition when triggered, leading to diabetes, kidney failure, etc.
also, i don't think they check for allergy during med check. 1 syringe of blood certainly ain't enough to test for so many things.
about bones and joints problem. do they take xrays during the med check? no. yes, they do have a chest xray, but is that enough to sieve out all problems? no. a slipped or protruding disc may most likely be left out during the checkup. when it comes to route march, a protruding disc may actually detiorate into slipped disc, which is like "ouch". one of my seniors actually suffered from slipped disc during his route march, *he got downgraded after that)
but do you want to do something about it only when the problem has alr occur, and the damage irreversible (yeah, cos this concerns health, ur spinal disc isn't something you can change down and then). or do you want to do smth abt it before the problem occur?
my cousin was unaware of his kneejoint problem (the joint was wearing thin). he failed his ippt and was made to do rt, where he ran and ran and ran. it was only after he felt pain in his knees during one of his runs, that he found that his knee joint had been worn out. he now only has knee surgery to look forward to (knee joint replacement).
how do you monitor ur conditions when you don't even know about them in the first place? yes, you know that you should probably stop when ur felt chest pain, but that's a bit too late, if it is the start of a heart attack. if you have knowledge of any medical condition you might have, it is easier to monitor and control ur condition. e.g. you know u got irregular heartbeat, and you can do smth abt it, like jog at a slower pace etc.
so, i think that full med check should be conducted by private enterprise, when they really check for everything.otherwise, saf should step up the extensiveness of its med check procedure.
if that's the case, then downsize cmpb mcc medical checkup department. thereafter, transfer all pre-enlistees to full checkup medical examination at govt public hospitals' "super premium platinum gold" full body checkup package. total cost to be fully absorbed by govt.
the chest x-ray is just to check any lung abnormality and any lung lesions seen.
in addition, we all know that the general standard FFI form (the same form as the SISPEC/OCS and ORD FFI form...) how detailed can that be?
standard checkup in the FFI (any course) form (3 pages):
1st page: self-declared questionaire.
2nd page:
medic will do:
Height;
Weight;
BMI;
BP;
Eyesight;
Urine (only test 3 basic components: albumin, glucose and blood);
blood test: HIV ( only when pre-enlist, ORD, n post overseas ex);
ECG (only if needed)
Audiogram (only if needed)
CXR: chest x-ray (only if needed), otherwise, use result from pre-enlist x-ray...
dental officer will check teeth at saf dental centres (usually only ORD FFI)
doctor will check:
Lungs;
Heart using sethoscope,
any other conditions: usually is self-declared,
3rd page: else MO will just cleared u fit for instruction for course or usually 1 year.
Originally posted by eac:
if that's the case, then downsize cmpb mcc medical checkup department. thereafter, transfer all pre-enlistees to full checkup medical examination at govt public hospitals' "super premium platinum gold" full body checkup package. total cost to be fully absorbed by govt.
get rid of some of the useless pencil pushing political super scale pay officers. no wait, not some. MOST
then the money can go to paying for all this.
Originally posted by eac:
if that's the case, then downsize cmpb mcc medical checkup department. thereafter, transfer all pre-enlistees to full checkup medical examination at govt public hospitals' "super premium platinum gold" full body checkup package. total cost to be fully absorbed by govt.
:)
don't need such a ex package. even an average one would be more comprehensive than the mcc med check.
Originally posted by deathmaster::)
don't need such a ex package. even an average one would be more comprehensive than the mcc med check.
u should have take a look at the US courses FFI forms that saf usually sends its regulars to attend (e.g. US SEAL... Pathfinder...) ... some 5 - 8 pages long... more comprehensive... more test... (e.g. blood need to draw some 10ml for 3 different tubes: red, purple n grey (fluoride) for several test like liver panel...etc., urine sample, saliva sample)
the regular's FFI over 30 years old is more than that of a NSF BUT less than that of a US course FFI...
if u are blaming the army for not conducting comprehensive check-ups for enlistees before going for ns, are u going to blame those marathon runners who die during the race for not going for comprehensive check-ups??
might as well have AIDS and VD test especially since so many youngsters are having sex at such a young age...
heck.. i might be even sitting here writing this and die of a heart attack the next moment... that's life...
Originally posted by pigsticker:if u are blaming the army for not conducting comprehensive check-ups for enlistees before going for ns, are u going to blame those marathon runners who die during the race for not going for comprehensive check-ups??
might as well have AIDS and VD test especially since so many youngsters are having sex at such a young age...
heck.. i might be even sitting here writing this and die of a heart attack the next moment... that's life...
ns is a "forced voluntary" compulsory, whereas marathon u can choose not to run/participate...
btw... now pre-enlist n b4 ORD do check for HIV...
since the govt wants our 2 youthful years to the nation, they should take care of the human welfare and well-being components, instead of spending the bulk of the defence budget (6% of annual GDP) on advancement weapon technologies n R&D.
the minister of defence should step down after so many soliders had died during his tenure. what is the point of million dollars salaries and talent so called mentioned but we are just waiting for the problems to happen before we have solution? if the son died belonged to the minister of defence, how will he feel?
Originally posted by kangyk:the minister of defence should step down after so many soliders had died during his tenure. what is the point of million dollars salaries and talent so called mentioned but we are just waiting for the problems to happen before we have solution? if the son died belonged to the minister of defence, how will he feel?
our chenghu gahmen is pseudo democracy as citied in wikipedia.org...
as same the MHA's dealing of mas selamat case, our govt "policy" is to localise the blame/fault at the lower management level, and not to travel to the upstairs upper management...
and today's news is that of the near escape of 2 detainees at the courts' detention area... a close shave... but MHA might employ a similiar judgement panel to localise the blame...
Originally posted by kangyk:the minister of defence should step down after so many soliders had died during his tenure. what is the point of million dollars salaries and talent so called mentioned but we are just waiting for the problems to happen before we have solution? if the son died belonged to the minister of defence, how will he feel?
even if he step down, will it make any difference?
i dun get it.
Originally posted by eac:http://www.channelnewsasia.com/stories/singaporelocalnews/view/353695/1/.html
Officers undergo enhanced physical checks prior to jungle training in Brunei
By Imelda Saad, Channel NewsAsia | Posted: 12 June 2008 2124 hrsSINGAPORE : Singapore's armed forces have been sending cadet officers overseas as an essential part of training to build their confidence.
Officers are sent to the jungles of the Temburong district in Brunei several times a year for their orientation training.
Before their jungle training, officers are required to undergo a fitness regime. It involves a detailed assessment on the officer's medical history as well as other medical checks. Trainees also go through endurance runs and other physical conditioning activities.
There are also thorough briefings and safety checks on equipment used in the training. Medics will also check on the trainees midway through their jungle survival course to assess their mental and physical well-being.
An eight-day jungle survival course in Brunei will involve an air crash simulation and is carried out in three stages.
The first stage is the preparation training where officers are briefed on jungle survival skills like how to trap water, how to skin a quail and identify edible plants.
Then comes the part where trainees learn to "live off the land". At this stage, trainees are dropped off in the jungle and trained to survive on their own for three days.
The third stage is navigation training where cadets, in small groups of 6 to 7, embark on a 4-kilometre march back to camp.
It was apparently at the third stage that 20-year-old Office Cadet Clifton Lam Jia Hao collapsed while undergoing jungle orientation training in Brunei. A pilot trainee with the Republic of Singapore Air Force (RSAF), he died one-and-a-half hours after he collapsed, despite efforts by medics to resuscitate him en route to the hospital. - CNA /ls
Hmm...maybe I old man or what...I had done JCC, and the medical screening was like the same FFI form or something? I don't quite remember anything more than that was done, probably those who had just done JCC recently can contribute on this?
"Trainees also go through endurance runs and other physical conditioning activities." <--- another smokescreen again. Physical and medical conditions are fundamentally different. Though we can be sure that poor physical fitness may lead to medical issues under fatigue and stressful environment.
RT also cancelled?someone confirm pls..
Really though, the people giving the initial replies are just there to cover their asses, telling the world about what they've done, it's just a publicity thing. Pretending to be the heroes of the nation.
Most of them don't even know what they're talking about. I think close to a quarter of sec sch students have more medical knowledge than the people making the initial report. They always claim to sympathise with the family of the deceased etc., but do they truly? If a person was truly emotionally hurt like that so many times he would have committed suicide many times over by now.
I really, really hate it when they say they sympathise with the family because I truly think they don't. They never knew him personally. They never watched him grow up. They never spent his birthdays with him. How would they know how much it means to lose a person?
Originally posted by MrSean:Really though, the people giving the initial replies are just there to cover their asses, telling the world about what they've done, it's just a publicity thing. Pretending to be the heroes of the nation.
Most of them don't even know what they're talking about. I think close to a quarter of sec sch students have more medical knowledge than the people making the initial report. They always claim to sympathise with the family of the deceased etc., but do they truly? If a person was truly emotionally hurt like that so many times he would have committed suicide many times over by now.
I really, really hate it when they say they sympathise with the family because I truly think they don't. They never knew him personally. They never watched him grow up. They never spent his birthdays with him. How would they know how much it means to lose a person?
Covered with state flag, dressed in No.1 in the casket. Before pushing into the incinerator, folded the flag, together with a picap and a silver bayonet, presented to the family by at least a LG (to what I can remember), after the slow march and homat-tengbak, with the remaining company-mates stood in rolls with a black-coloured band on the left arm...
Worth it...?
That's how things go man...
a lot of hypocrites in publicity of sympathy. how many times he has to say this before things are ok for the grieved family and loss of fine men just for the sake of service. as long as we serve national sevice throughout or reach 40 years old for the last national service, we all run risk of being sacrificed for this type training.
so does scrapping of NS solve the problem ?
dam,tis poor guy is my ex classmate.sigh althou we arent tat close but felt kinda sad. RIP. great talent wasted future pilot.
anyway juz on the day of tis incident ( yesterday ) my platoon mate came down wid a 38.6 fever during outfield.when he say he is going to report sick,my pc replied " you dare! "
now i see with the recent 2 death case saf dare to fools around.
Originally posted by vitasoys:dam,tis poor guy is my ex classmate.sigh althou we arent tat close but felt kinda sad. RIP. great talent wasted future pilot.
anyway juz on the day of tis incident ( yesterday ) my platoon mate came down wid a 38.6 fever during outfield.when he say he is going to report sick,my pc replied " you dare! "
now i see with the recent 2 death case saf dare to fools around.
I find it hard to believe that an SAF officer would actually say that .... they know it's their as if something goes wrong ...
either your platoon mate has a history of kenging .... thus your PC is already jaded ...
or you better sound out about your PC's attitude towards reporting sick to higher authorities ....
the guy juz had a history of migraines and some medicial appt and stuff like tat.no point report to higher authorities,they have a tendency to view all report sick case as chao keng,geninue or nt.
even medicial appt with specialist had to be pick on a non training date.even if the specialist gave u the date,they will claim u purposely pick to siam.super lame 1.
i tink they wan chiong best combat unit too much tat they have to be so fck up against ppl with medicial problems
Originally posted by vitasoys:the guy juz had a history of migraines and some medicial appt and stuff like tat.no point report to higher authorities,they have a tendency to view all report sick case as chao keng,geninue or nt.
even medicial appt with specialist had to be pick on a non training date.even if the specialist gave u the date,they will claim u purposely pick to siam.super lame 1.
i tink they wan chiong best combat unit too much tat they have to be so fck up against ppl with medicial problems
lame ? .... next time in the working world, in your real job .... try telling your boss you have made a medical appointment on a day when you have an important meeting with a key client or something, and see what would happen ...
if the guy's really sick, what's there to be afraid of ? ..... he's being a sucker by sucking it up .....
on the other hand, if he is chao kenging, then you can blame him for the higher authorities viewing all sick cases as chao keng ... it's thanks to people like him ....
dare to report
fever like tis say 'you dare'... but seriously I dunno, tis officers next time they go look for 2nd career dunno how
all chao kengers spoils the market.. thats why even genuine cases are viewed as chao keng..
Originally posted by stellazio:all chao kengers spoils the market.. thats why even genuine cases are viewed as chao keng..
but they still get downgraded leh...
Cardiologist says cost of comprehensive heart screenings outweighs benefits
By Hoe Yeen Nie, Channel NewsAsia | Posted: 13 June 2008 2205 hrs
SINGAPORE: The recent deaths of two SAF servicemen during training have raised questions on the need for comprehensive heart screenings for future enlistees.
Some cardiologists and parents said the screenings would help identify early on those most at risk of sudden cardiac deaths. But others feel the costs outweigh their practical necessity.
About 1,000 Singaporeans die each year from cardiac arrests, according to most recent figures by the National Heart Centre.
While the majority of deaths are older men, it is not uncommon for younger males to fall victim to the disease.
Recruit Andrew Cheah died on Tuesday during a two-kilometre walk as part of his Basic Military Training. A day later, Officer Cadet Clifton Lam collapsed and later died while undergoing jungle orientation training in Brunei.
While the causes of death are not yet certain, some feel measures like comprehensive heart screenings can help prevent future incidents.
Sudden cardiac deaths can strike during stress, exercise, or even when you're sleeping. Although many of the victims appear outwardly healthy, doctors say the disease does not strike at random. In fact, there are groups of people within the population who are more prone to suffering from sudden cardiac arrests.
But not all feel comprehensive heart screenings are warranted, especially when basic tests like the ones carried out on all pre-enlistees, can pick up on most heart conditions.
Dr Hsu Li Fern, a cardiologist at National Heart Centre, said: "Detailed or comprehensive tests are usually used to confirm or reject what has been picked up during basic screening. However, even with comprehensive tests for all people, there will still be a small number who may remain undetected.”
Another issue is cost. A treadmill stress test and an echo-cardiogram are expected to cost S$500.
But some parents are willing to fork out the money just for that peace of mind.
Dr Hsu said sudden death can also be caused by other conditions such as heat stroke. But he said the SAF has sufficient measures in place to prevent the problem. -CNA/vm
RSAF pilot trainee who died in Brunei remembered as outstanding student leader
By Heather Tan/Chio Su-Mei, Channel NewsAsia | Posted: 13 June 2008 2049 hrs
SINGAPORE : Friends of Clifton Lam, the Republic of Singapore Air Force pilot trainee who died during training in Brunei on Wednesday, fondly remember him as an outstanding individual.
His alma mater, Temasek Polytechnic, paid tribute to him during its Students' Awards Ceremony on Friday.
Edmund Khoo, Deputy Principal, Temasek Polytechnic, said, "Clifton's passing is a very painful loss to all who knew him, and we extend our heartfelt condolences to his family and loved ones. But while we mourn his passing, perhaps we can draw some comfort from the very fond memories that we will always have of him."
Last year, Clifton received a Co-Curricular Activity Leadership Merit Award.
The pilot officer cadet had been active in student activities, organising camps for juniors and the Polytechnic's dinner and dance.
His lecturers and schoolmates had nothing but kind words for him.
Kyle Sim, Student Development Manager and Lecturer, Temasek Polytechnic, said, "He had proven himself to be one of the shining stars to the student union and personally I knew him as one of my student leaders. He is indeed definitely one of the jovial students that I know."
Cai Yuting, Clifton's former classmate, said, "I would say he was one of the best leaders I knew because he had a passion in him that seldom or never ran out. He also had a gentleness in him that encourages people, inspires them to go on further."
Another former classmate, Chai Yuan Long, said, "I remember him as a cheerful, friendly and playful guy..."
His schoolmates are also waiting to find out more about his death.
Former classmate Thomas Seah said, "I just hope they (MINDEF) will find out what really went wrong, and (ensure that) something like that won't happen again, because my friends and I, we're all going into the army in a couple of months, so we hope that with his passing, something will be improved in the army."
MINDEF is reviewing all procedures during a three-day suspension on all physical and endurance training activities across the army, navy and airforce.
Meanwhile, Clifton's army friends and former schoolmates have rallied around his bereaved family.
Many of Clifton's friends - from secondary school to polytechnic and the army - have started paying their last respects at his funeral wake.
On Friday afternoon, Defence Minister Teo Chee Hean and MP for Pasir-Ris Punggol Michael Palmer also visited Clifton's family to offer their condolences.
Channel NewsAsia understands that MINDEF has offered a funeral grant to Clifton's bereaved family and that the family is awaiting the outcome of the Ministry's investigations.
Clifton's funeral will be held this Sunday. - CNA/ms
but at least the pool would be reduced further right?
it's a matter of life and death