Commanders Anyhow Override MC?
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How many times when you get MC, excuse or already Pes C9 but your F! sergeant order you to continue training. I don't know how the situation has improve over the years but during my time. If your hand is excused, they will still make you RUN, if you excuse Leg, they will make you do chin up.
In this Joe Foo case he is on three days of medical leave by the SGH for a hamstring strain (leg) so excuse leg only but can be forced to do Chin UP! -
don't see anything wrong with that.
if excuse leg, but also can't join in training, than go back camp for what, just stay at home. alot of army personnel with slight injuries still carry on training, and if they are injured badly, they will avoid straining their injured body.
it is a freak accident, and the sergeant did the correct thing.
as for MC, excuse or already Pes C9 still ask you to train, and something do happen, post here and see. if nothing happen, than the sergeant's judgement of your ability to join in the training is correct.
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Originally posted by ahtansh:
If your hand is excused, they will still make you RUN, if you excuse Leg, they will make you do chin up.
In this Joe Foo case he is on three days of medical leave by the SGH for a hamstring strain (leg) so excuse leg only but can be forced to do Chin UP!
Yeah!! tat wat i think and said too in another thread.. its still in practise nowadays.."oh, so u are excuse lower limb..........."
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so your mouth got ulcer no need eat la?
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If it is MO or doctor that issue the excuse of lower limb training only, it is through his/her medical professional conclusion that decides that you can still do upper limb training. So technically, back to company line, they are not in the wrong asking you to do upper limb training. Anything happen to you because of the condition you report sick about and while doing upper limb training is answerable by the MO or the doctor. Why he give a wrong diagnosis of the condition and did give you inadquate or wrong excuse. If you are still made to do lower limb training while excuse lower limb, then it is the commander that made you do those training defying the MO's order and should be subsequently held responsible.
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excuse activties is not an mc, its just a medical excuse for u to avoid engaging in activities that will strain ur injured body part.
if nothing wrong with your arms while u got a shin sprin, why cannot do chin ups?
if nothing wrong with your legs while u got a sore shoulder, why cannot run?
the specs did nothing wrong and they did not overwrite anything
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Originally posted by skythewood:
as for MC, excuse or already Pes C9 still ask you to train, and something do happen, post here and see. if nothing happen, than the sergeant's judgement of your ability to join in the training is correct.
For the above case, the sergeant does not have the authority to pass a medical judgement. Only the MO or a medical board has the authority to deal with medical excuses or status. A sergent cannot access if any underlying conditions is cleared for training. Even if the sergent has medical training, he is not in the position to pass such judgement. Even non medical officers cannot pass such judgement.
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anyway, joe did not even endorse his mc. AKA NO ONE FREAKING KNOW HE IS ON MC. there. question answered? close thread pls.
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Originally posted by cairocks:
For the above case, the sergeant does not have the authority to pass a medical judgement. Only the MO or a medical board has the authority to deal with medical excuses or status. A sergent cannot access if the underlying condition is cleared for training. Even if the sergent has medical training, he is not in the position to pass such judgement. Even non medical officers cannot pass such judgement.
anything happen, he take responsibility. he is the guy on the ground who will see if the duty is ok or not, not the doctor. if some guy who excuse heavy load claims that he cannot carry the pillow case, than the sergeant will step in.
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Just read the Straits Times.
The fella had an MC in his locker. He did not submit it to be endorsed.
So let's all don't jump to conclusions, yah?
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Nothing wrong wah... unless he is still on MC and was forced to come back.
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if you are on mc, sick... call COS. COS will enter for you in the book in book out book, MC.
than when you are better, than come back, and endorse MC.
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By the way..... I don't really see anything wrong with doing upper limb activities when you're excused lower limb activites (and vice versa).
After all.... how does a sprained ankle (or other minor leg injuries) affect one's ability to do chin-ups? Unless if you're talking about jumping up to the bar and letting go.
Which isn't really an issue either if the bar has those step-off metal thingies at the sides.
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I don't blame the Mindef totally.. U all can see 20years back seldom hear NSman died during training. Only now i hear and see alot of youth go NS & can't come alive..
1) During checkp up CMPB doctor should check properly.
2) It their fate.
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it's a sad thing when someone dies during training defending the country ......
but it'll make it worse when each time some young chap conks out from some underlying condition that cannot be forseen, they emasculate the training further ......
we are training a fighting army here, not a bunch of boy scouts ... (at the rate things are going, maybe it'd be brownies or girl guides soon ? ) .....
I think the young men themselves have a duty to themselves to keep themselves reasonably fit too ..... not lead a sedentary life before a computer screen for the first two decades of their lives and expect the army to magically transform them into fighting fit men in 3 months .......
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seen so many cases of not reporting MC and got into accidents then make people get into trouble because superiors will go, "i know he did not submit MC, but as a commander, you should know he had history of...."
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Originally posted by rockfire:
I don't blame the Mindef totally.. U all can see 20years back seldom hear NSman died during training. Only now i hear and see alot of youth go NS & can't come alive..
1) During checkp up CMPB doctor should check properly.
2) It their fate.
do you think SAF still can continue to cover up all these deaths one by one after 20 years? they got to shed some light to the public eventually. you really think only few people passed on 20 years ago
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back in 1G Army, deaths are not often publicised. Either back then its very sensitive or secret or the fact that technology not so high tech..so very hard to whistle-blow.. Now every man and his dog got a phone an can easily tip off the media. I remember when a tonner crashed in Tekong in 04 or 05 and a few guys got hurt.. 2 hours later it was out in the news. So now with every incident, MINDEF will release the news instead cause hearing it first from a news agency would not sound too good for the public. my 0.2 cents anyway...
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The debate now is not really why he did chin up and die or he did sit ups then die or look at people do also die. I believe that he will die even if he is at home sleeping. The focus now is on the procedures.
It has always been a tradition to force sick and injuried people to do things they can;t suppose to. Countless times have i seen people with excuse upper limb, excuse heavy loads being asked to 20+ 20kg water cans and other stores from place to place. The reason why this is so , is easy to understand. "Why ask fit personals that have trained all day to do all this tough labour. They are so tired after all the training. Use those pikachus to do the job so the rest can rest." However, the pivot of this balancing scale is not at the center, it is very taxing and painful for those who are injuried to do this tough jobs.
How manys times have your 1 month MC being discounted to 1 week MC by the MOs or your 3 months excuse upper limb to 1 month ? MOs in camp always think that you are trying to keng when you see them. most only believe at most half of what you say. Whats more is that they don;t even believe what specialist tell them. Comeon, most of the MO are fresh out of thier course, if they so smart why aren't they all specialists.
Does endosing MC in the medical centre value add the MC ? What rights do the MOs have to override MCs given by other doctors? All are doctors right? All of them also CPT in the army what. Become civilian then all of a sudden , all that they say not believeable ? Like that government should ban all private clinics and change all hospitals to army ones. why lets our people visit doctors that are "hiding" our conditions from us?
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For someone to be as weak as to die after 7 chin ups, anyone with IQ above 50 knows that he would have died running after the bus or during primary 3 PE lessons.
Perhaps in view of the new breed of weak Singaporeans, we should reduce chin ups to 6 and not 7, and do 5 sit ups only. And run 200m. Maybe then, only maybe then not a SINGLE person will die for sure.
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Originally posted by kane213:
MOs in camp always think that you are trying to keng when you see them. most only believe at most half of what you say. Whats more is that they don;t even believe what specialist tell them.
Don't always blame others before you look into the mirror and see that reflection staring back at you. MOs tend to veer toward keng when he feels he's at the 50-50 mark between believing and disbelieving is because of the hundreds of thousands of kengsters who have been kenging 40 yrs ago since NS began until now,. since you're in NS, can you deny that there are many kengsters?? frm the more educated ones with A level or dip who go to specialists hoping to be PES C to the mono intake men who report sick every other day. kengsters are aplenty in SAF since day 1.
MO's decision to believe someone's kenging when he's at 50-50 mark between believing and disbelieving is a RESULT of the kengsters from 40 yrs ago. Look into the mirror and correct yourself first before condemning others. Because the phenomenon of MO's cynicism is a direct result of a systemic flaw that you have created yourselves. -
Want to keng then kena find out, now then kpkb.
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Originally posted by Gloater:
Don't always blame others before you look into the mirror and see that reflection staring back at you. MOs tend to veer toward keng when he feels he's at the 50-50 mark between believing and disbelieving is because of the hundreds of thousands of kengsters who have been kenging 40 yrs ago since NS began until now,. since you're in NS, can you deny that there are many kengsters?? frm the more educated ones with A level or dip who go to specialists hoping to be PES C to the mono intake men who report sick every other day. kengsters are aplenty in SAF since day 1.
MO's decision to believe someone's kenging when he's at 50-50 mark between believing and disbelieving is a RESULT of the kengsters from 40 yrs ago. Look into the mirror and correct yourself first before condemning others. Because the phenomenon of MO's cynicism is a direct result of a systemic flaw that you have created yourselves.
dont u noe... CPT ranked doctors r also NSFs too...
disrupt enlistment for their MBBS medical degree. next, just graduated from medical school with their doctors' licenses, and then, re-enlist back in NS. followed by their MOCC (conversion course), and finally serve finish their remaining months of NSF time... thus, also serve and F off type... -
Originally posted by Rednano:
dont u noe... CPT ranked doctors r also NSFs too...
disrupt enlistment for their MBBS medical degree. next, just graduated from medical school with their doctors' licenses, and then, re-enlist back in NS. followed by their MOCC (conversion course), and finally serve finish their remaining months of NSF time... thus, also serve and F off type...When did I say that MOs are regulars or that they're not NSF? of cos i know they are NSFs. who dunno that? There are regular MOs but there are many times more NSF MOs. In fact the ratio is not even comparable. who dunno that
For another fellow NSF to form such a poor judgment abt the soldiers in general as he diagnoses them, when he himself is an NSF just shows how blatant the kenging culture is. Thanks for reinforcing my point.
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Point is, the prevalence of kengsters does not equate to dismissing the oath one takes as a doctor lightly.
There is a difference between manpower requirement in peace, and wartime. Get the priorities right, because there seems to be a gap, and a glaring one.
Secondly, if you're an NSF who always kengs, chances are, it will come back to bite you in the ass when it's your turn to be credibly sick.