Originally posted by redwiner:You will be surprised by how many sergents or officers whom you think is straight turns out to be homosexual or bisexual! haha
They just can't come out and declare while they are in SAF cause they know it will affect their positions and advancement somehow.
U sound like u know alot of gay regulars in service.
Anyway i will agree that not all gays are feminine since i know of some who unless told, u will never guess hes not straight.
Originally posted by insidestory:MAJ is hardly high ranking. On another note, the truth doesn't stay wrapped for long. The gay dude is right in his fears in that homosexuality, once exposed will affect his already lacklustre career much more.
For eg, if he had a CEP of LTC, he'd probably end up retiring as MAJ when they found out. There is definitely a rightful aversion to homosexuality in high places in the public sector and conservative private sector like GLCs and the legal, or even academic sector working in the universities.
In the public sector, the armed forces comprising of almost all men and with a strong emphasis on masculinity would most definitely recoil from it.
major isnt high ranking? i thought major quite high rank?
and also what does farmer means?
Originally posted by dkcx:U sound like u know alot of gay regulars in service.
Anyway i will agree that not all gays are feminine since i know of some who unless told, u will never guess hes not straight.
I only know of one. But he was telling me how he went to this gay club and was surprised to see so many people he knew from SAF that he thought were straight. haha
Originally posted by franz mavrick:major isnt high ranking? i thought major quite high rank?
and also what does farmer means?
It depends on who you speak to.
Most people I know would recognise that MAJ is a low to low-medium rank. MAJ can be reached by 27 years old, and it's not even at the 50 percentile point, since its the fourth officer rank out of a total of nine officer ranks (now 10, with the baloney senior LTC rank haha). Not to mention, how it's only one rank above CPT, and CPT is given to anyone and everyone automatically one year after they graduate from university. when I see a MAJ, I'd categorise that as the start of his career.
Originally posted by redwiner:I only know of one. But he was telling me how he went to this gay club and was surprised to see so many people he knew from SAF that he thought were straight. haha
There might be straights going to a gay club for fun. I myself did discuss with another friend last time whether we wanna go see what the atmosphere is like inside the place though we didn't in the end.
However i guess that could suggest that there are more gay regulars than we know but I'll say their identity is not impt to anyone unless they were to do something that will affect the people around them.
Originally posted by dkcx:There might be straights going to a gay club for fun. I myself did discuss with another friend last time whether we wanna go see what the atmosphere is like inside the place though we didn't in the end.
However i guess that could suggest that there are more gay regulars than we know but I'll say their identity is not impt to anyone unless they were to do something that will affect the people around them.
I agree. I too want to a gay club once in Singapore, and in the US went to a pub that's not officially a gay pub but known to be frequented by gays. I went to the SG one to lend support to a friend's party. And I'm 100% straight.
Originally posted by dkcx:There might be straights going to a gay club for fun. I myself did discuss with another friend last time whether we wanna go see what the atmosphere is like inside the place though we didn't in the end.
However i guess that could suggest that there are more gay regulars than we know but I'll say their identity is not impt to anyone unless they were to do something that will affect the people around them.
Well, if they are in a gay club, the possibility of them being gay is definitely higher. Besides, he saw a few of them repeatedly a few weeks in a row and even yesterday, some of them were even like holding hands and touching other guys.
Yeah, there's definitely more gay regulars than we know of.
Originally posted by redwiner:Well, if they are in a gay club, the possibility of them being gay is definitely higher. Besides, he saw a few of them repeatedly a few weeks in a row and even yesterday, some of them were even like holding hands and touching other guys.
Yeah, there's definitely more gay regulars than we know of.
Yesterday? U went often or are u in close contacts with that gay regular u know to be so clear about this?
Originally posted by dkcx:Yesterday? U went often or are u in close contacts with that gay regular u know to be so clear about this?
Yes, he happens to be my best friend since secondary school, before he came out to me.
Anyway, does it even matter? haha
Originally posted by redwiner:Yes, he happens to be my best friend since secondary school, before he came out to me.
Anyway, does it even matter? haha
humm so will you shock when he claim that he is a homo?
Originally posted by redwiner:Yes, he happens to be my best friend since secondary school, before he came out to me.
Anyway, does it even matter? haha
Nah just sounds so surprising that u are so clear about the person's activities and what he sees when few friends really tell each other all the things they see/do each day.
Originally posted by dkcx:Nah just sounds so surprising that u are so clear about the person's activities and what he sees when few friends really tell each other all the things they see/do each day.
haha, yeah true. He talks to me all the time about his clubbing experiences though and what happens, so yar.
And yes, i was shocked at first cause i didn't know anyone who's gay so i really didn't know how to react. But after a while, i warmed up to the idea as i realised he's still the same person i know, regardless of his sexual orientation.
Sorry for going off-topic!
Originally posted by redwiner:haha, yeah true. He talks to me all the time about his clubbing experiences though and what happens, so yar.
And yes, i was shocked at first cause i didn't know anyone who's gay so i really didn't know how to react. But after a while, i warmed up to the idea as i realised he's still the same person i know, regardless of his sexual orientation.
Sorry for going off-topic!
Thats fine. Maybe you are 1 of the few who are willing to listen to his sharing since not everyone is interested to hear about gay related stuff even if they can accept the friend's sexual orientation.
I agree that gay or straights. Their sexual orientation does not change the person we know nor the reason why we hang out with. If the person is a good friend, i believe he can be trusted to not do anything that will harm the friendship.
However there will always remain people who treat gays etc as a disease and will cut off all contact with even a close friend just because of their sexual orientation.
Originally posted by dkcx:Thats fine. Maybe you are 1 of the few who are willing to listen to his sharing since not everyone is interested to hear about gay related stuff even if they can accept the friend's sexual orientation.
I agree that gay or straights. Their sexual orientation does not change the person we know nor the reason why we hang out with. If the person is a good friend, i believe he can be trusted to not do anything that will harm the friendship.
However there will always remain people who treat gays etc as a disease and will cut off all contact with even a close friend just because of their sexual orientation.
Yeah, we have friends who just stopped contacting him after he came out to them. I don't really blame them though, it's not something everyone can accept, especially in Singapore's considerably conservative society.
Perhaps in the future, even SAF can start accepting people regardless of their sexual orientation as they can do a job as well or perhaps even better than heterosexuals can. Then maybe Singaporeans will generally start accepting homosexuals. I've always believed that the government should take such steps instead of just waiting for society to change on its own, but that's just my belief. haha
Originally posted by redwiner:Yeah, we have friends who just stopped contacting him after he came out to them. I don't really blame them though, it's not something everyone can accept, especially in Singapore's considerably conservative society.
Perhaps in the future, even SAF can start accepting people regardless of their sexual orientation as they can do a job as well or perhaps even better than heterosexuals can. Then maybe Singaporeans will generally start accepting homosexuals. I've always believed that the government should take such steps instead of just waiting for society to change on its own, but that's just my belief. haha
This will involve the debates about 377A etc that has happened in the past which i don't think we should venture into.
What i feel is just that the society is still not ready for such a change esp since even the younger generation now are still not open enough to it so its worse for the older, more conservative generation.
In the far future, things might change but for now i guess being gay is still not going to be something most people can openly admit to if they do not want to affect their career, friendships etc etc.
Originally posted by dkcx:This will involve the debates about 377A etc that has happened in the past which i don't think we should venture into.
What i feel is just that the society is still not ready for such a change esp since even the younger generation now are still not open enough to it so its worse for the older, more conservative generation.
In the far future, things might change but for now i guess being gay is still not going to be something most people can openly admit to if they do not want to affect their career, friendships etc etc.
Yup, that's why many homosexuals don't want to declare themselves in SAF cause of such a roadblock and then they get crap for not declaring themselves.
Originally posted by redwiner:haha, yeah true. He talks to me all the time about his clubbing experiences though and what happens, so yar.
And yes, i was shocked at first cause i didn't know anyone who's gay so i really didn't know how to react. But after a while, i warmed up to the idea as i realised he's still the same person i know, regardless of his sexual orientation.
Sorry for going off-topic!
sorry but u really think its the exact same person? you dare say that your impression of him did not change one bit? not to be lewd, but did you not once visualize him kissing another guy?
Originally posted by insidestory:sorry but u really think its the exact same person? you dare say that your impression of him did not change one bit? not to be lewd, but did you not once visualize him kissing another guy?
I would say that is not important and there is no need to sow discord between redwiner and his friend. As long as he feels comfortable to continue with the friendship with his friend, that is all that everyone else should need to know.
So what if a commander is sissy?
As long as he does his job well done and doesn't kill anyone in his group I'm fine with him.
Originally posted by insidestory:sorry but u really think its the exact same person? you dare say that your impression of him did not change one bit? not to be lewd, but did you not once visualize him kissing another guy?
Even if you're uncomfortable, it doesn't mean others must feel the same way. Live and let live...It's his friend, after all.
Originally posted by insidestory:sorry but u really think its the exact same person? you dare say that your impression of him did not change one bit? not to be lewd, but did you not once visualize him kissing another guy?
Yeah, he's definitely the same person. He is gay even before he met me, only difference is that he didn't tell me about it. I admitted that it took me a while to warm up to it but i do genuinely love him as a friend and so sexual orientation should not be a hindrance in any way. It's just proper respect.
Originally posted by redwiner:Yeah, he's definitely the same person. He is gay even before he met me, only difference is that he didn't tell me about it. I admitted that it took me a while to warm up to it but i do genuinely love him as a friend and so sexual orientation should not be a hindrance in any way. It's just proper respect.
why the big presumptuous reaction from the other two? i only asked him whether he sees his friend TRULY the same after he outted because I too have a close friend who suddenly became gay. He talks about having sex with his partner to me sometimes, but in extremely general terms without details. I find myself picturing it (not in a good way), yet I do understand what he means by the friendship remains as precious. I think that its not possible to see the person in the exact same way, but possible that he means no less to you.
Originally posted by Eiizumi:So what if a commander is sissy?
As long as he does his job well done and doesn't kill anyone in his group I'm fine with him.
as a commander, and someone who knows some gay guys as friends and how they behave and what their typical character is like, i don't think leadership is compatible with homosexuality, no offence to gays out there who hope to go to OCS. the basis and criteria of leadership and commanding and the most common characteristics you see in gay guys are totally at odds with one another.
In any case, most gays I know loathe the army, much more going to OCS. a lot of them fancy themselves to be fun, artistic, and enjoy unmoderated and extreme concepts of 'freedom', 'creativity', many are hard party animals, and many engage in recreational drugs in clubs, and have traits that are in complete opposites to what is required of leadership (especially military leadership) like discipline, rigors, self-starter, far sightedness and big picture view - traits that are tied closely to army leadership, which commands the largest number of men under each unit among the three services.
Of cos this is a general statement that applies to the majority of gays, not all. I'm sure there are some gays who have strong leadership qualities and also love army principles.
Generally, gays loathe the military, their NS days, and whatever the army stands for. I once chatted with a gay guy i met in the Singapore. When I told him I was enlisting soon, he made no hesitation in releasing to me his hatred for everything the army and military life stood for.
I tried to diffuse the tension by quipping well, gays all over the world, i'm sure it isn't different here in SG, do love various military, especially the army uniforms for role-playing purposes and fetishes.
All he said back was that he found his no.4 uniform 'smelly'. I don't know how his gay colourful A/X or CK tight tees smell like in his closet together where he stores his handcuffs and whips, but I think the SAF no.4 has only the smell of my mom's detergent and it's terribly comfortable to wear.
Originally posted by insidestory:as a commander, and someone who knows some gay guys as friends and how they behave and what their typical character is like, i don't think leadership is compatible with homosexuality, no offence to gays out there who hope to go to OCS. the basis and criteria of leadership and commanding and the most common characteristics you see in gay guys are totally at odds with one another.
In any case, most gays I know loathe the army, much more going to OCS. a lot of them fancy themselves to be fun, artistic, and enjoy unmoderated and extreme concepts of 'freedom', 'creativity', many are hard party animals, and many engage in recreational drugs in clubs, and have traits that are in complete opposites to what is required of leadership (especially military leadership) like discipline, rigors, self-starter, far sightedness and big picture view - traits that are tied closely to army leadership, which commands the largest number of men under each unit among the three services.
Of cos this is a general statement that applies to the majority of gays, not all. I'm sure there are some gays who have strong leadership qualities and also love army principles.
Generally, gays loathe the military, their NS days, and whatever the army stands for. I once chatted with a gay guy i met in the Singapore. When I told him I was enlisting soon, he made no hesitation in releasing to me his hatred for everything the army and military life stood for.
I tried to diffuse the tension by quipping well, gays all over the world, i'm sure it isn't different here in SG, do love various military, especially the army uniforms for role-playing purposes and fetishes.
All he said back was that he found his no.4 uniform 'smelly'. I don't know how his gay colourful A/X or CK tight tees smell like in his closet together where he stores his handcuffs and whips, but I think the SAF no.4 has only the smell of my mom's detergent and it's terribly comfortable to wear.
That's just a whole lot of generalisation.
Regardless, whether they are true or not, sexual orientation should not deter anyone from rising up the ranks as the examples you have given are more of homosexuals not wanting to do well in SAF or NS rather than them not having the capabilities to do so.
Originally posted by insidestory:as a commander, and someone who knows some gay guys as friends and how they behave and what their typical character is like, i don't think leadership is compatible with homosexuality, no offence to gays out there who hope to go to OCS. the basis and criteria of leadership and commanding and the most common characteristics you see in gay guys are totally at odds with one another.
In any case, most gays I know loathe the army, much more going to OCS. a lot of them fancy themselves to be fun, artistic, and enjoy unmoderated and extreme concepts of 'freedom', 'creativity', many are hard party animals, and many engage in recreational drugs in clubs, and have traits that are in complete opposites to what is required of leadership (especially military leadership) like discipline, rigors, self-starter, far sightedness and big picture view - traits that are tied closely to army leadership, which commands the largest number of men under each unit among the three services.
Of cos this is a general statement that applies to the majority of gays, not all. I'm sure there are some gays who have strong leadership qualities and also love army principles.
Generally, gays loathe the military, their NS days, and whatever the army stands for. I once chatted with a gay guy i met in the Singapore. When I told him I was enlisting soon, he made no hesitation in releasing to me his hatred for everything the army and military life stood for.
I tried to diffuse the tension by quipping well, gays all over the world, i'm sure it isn't different here in SG, do love various military, especially the army uniforms for role-playing purposes and fetishes.
All he said back was that he found his no.4 uniform 'smelly'. I don't know how his gay colourful A/X or CK tight tees smell like in his closet together where he stores his handcuffs and whips, but I think the SAF no.4 has only the smell of my mom's detergent and it's terribly comfortable to wear.
Sorry, but I have to correct your bigotry here. What you just typed are a whole lot of bullshit. Let me address some of your bigotry here
1) "leadership is compatible with homosexuality"
The basis of leadership lies in the traits of one's personal character and mindset. It has nothing to do with one's orientation. One's orientation merely defines the preferred type of sex and has no impact on one's leadership abilities.
2) "
In any case, most gays I know loathe the army, much more going to OCS. a lot of them fancy themselves to be fun, artistic, and enjoy unmoderated and extreme concepts of 'freedom', 'creativity', many are hard party animals, and many engage in recreational drugs in clubs, and have traits that are in complete opposites to what is required of leadership (especially military leadership) like discipline, rigors, self-starter, far sightedness and big picture view - traits that are tied closely to army leadership, which commands the largest number of men under each unit among the three services."
One vocal minority is definately not representative of the majority. Just because you socialise with a few gays who dislike the military does not equate to the entire homosexual population of Singapore disliking the SAF. It is grossly incorrect to say "the majority of gays" dislike the army.
I know alot of gays who ABOLUTELY LOVES the Army. The love to see sweaty hunky young guys exercising daily- and would love to indulge in those activities with them. They love the thrill of bathing naked with them. They are excited at the prospect of staying in camp overnight with a group of random good looking males confined to a small bunk.
Although I would say you are correct that most gays are liberal and forward thinking. They, however, do not all engage in recreational drug use. In fact, your above statement easily applies to heterosexual males and females as well.
3) Generally, its safe to say that all males loathe the military for taking away 2 years of their prime time.
4) Heterosexuals friends I know store more than just cuffs and whips in their closet. They play with peppermint nipples, candle wax, sex dolls and fake boobs too. So what are you trying to insinuate when you say your gay friend has cuffs and whips in his closet?
To conclude, gays are equally good with their straight counterparts when it comes to possessing military discipline and leadership. In fact I would argue that histroy has proven that an army of gays would be more effective than an army of straight man.
This was proven in ancient greece where the Sacred Band of Thebes managed to defeat armies 3 times their size.
In fact I know so many regulars(CPTs and MAJ/1WO) that didnt declare their orientation- especially warrant officers. They possess more passion in doing their job as they genuinely like the environment and the job. Sadly, they came from a time where 302 was a taboo in society.
Many of these gay/bisexuals officers command a far greater respect from me as compared to those straight officers who think they are very man just by signing on.