Tour of Duty for Regulars in Afghanistan/ Iraq
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Originally posted by angel3070:
Then why Iraqi journalist threw shoe at Bush?
That is because he/she did not have the macro-view of the war. People without macro-view are unable to see the reason and purpose of things. Especially when the things affect them adversely (but must be done for the greater good). An analogy I can give you is, a retrenchment exercise is necessary and also works for the greater good of the company, the shareholders and the company's future, but the retrenched staff will unlikely see that it's a welcome move.
People caught up as collateral damage are normally unable to get past the damage to see the big picture.
Even when there's no collateral damage involved, everyday lots of irresponsible or people who are not intellectually blessed are unable to have a helicopter view and see the big picture of things.People wondering why they have to serve NS is already a prime and common example.
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Originally posted by insidestory:
That is because he/she did not have the macro-view of the war. People without macro-view are unable to see the reason and purpose of things. Especially when the things affect them adversely (but must be done for the greater good). An analogy I can give you is, a retrenchment exercise is necessary and also works for the greater good of the company, the shareholders and the company's future, but the retrenched staff will unlikely see that it's a welcome move.
People caught up as collateral damage are normally unable to get past the damage to see the big picture.
Even when there's no collateral damage involved, everyday lots of irresponsible or people who are not intellectually blessed are unable to have a helicopter view and see the big picture of things.People wondering why they have to serve NS is already a prime and common example.
I wouldn't agree with that. Some people disagree with the war not because they dont have the macro-view of it, but that they believe that the damages incurred during the way may outweigh the benefits brought about thereafter. Or maybe they just disagree with the concept of war for it may be against their values, just like how homosexualism or capital punishment. Some people are just against the idea of interfering with the sovereignty of another country due to the belief that foreigners may not fully understand or comprehend the culture of a country to make a sound decision.
There are pros and cons to war and it's unfair to classify as those against the Iraqi war to not be "intellectually blessed" just because their views differ from yours.It's just different beliefs and the ranking of certain values and priorities.
Besides, the benefits of democracy in a country like Iraq is still debatable due to the history and culture of Iraq. Trying to force the concept of democracy in Iraq may backfire just like what happened in maybe Southeast Asian nations after World War Two.
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Originally posted by redwiner:
I wouldn't agree with that. Some people disagree with the war not because they dont have the macro-view of it, but that they believe that the damages incurred during the way may outweigh the benefits brought about thereafter. Or maybe they just disagree with the concept of war for it may be against their values, just like how homosexualism or capital punishment. Some people are just against the idea of interfering with the sovereignty of another country due to the belief that foreigners may not fully understand or comprehend the culture of a country to make a sound decision.
There are pros and cons to war and it's unfair to classify as those against the Iraqi war to not be "intellectually blessed" just because their views differ from yours.It's just different beliefs and the ranking of certain values and priorities.
Besides, the benefits of democracy in a country like Iraq is still debatable due to the history and culture of Iraq. Trying to force the concept of democracy in Iraq may backfire just like what happened in maybe Southeast Asian nations after World War Two.
The non intellectually blessed one applies to only those who can't understand why they have to serve NS. Not about the US war in Iraq and Afghan. Don't even equate the suffering of American soldiers and middle eastern civilians in war time with obligatory NS conscription in this sheltered island. They don't even come close.
Come to think of it, the latter is done, in order to avoid the former.
Want to avoid being like the Iraqis or Kuwaitis, serve your NS like the Israelis dutifully do, and Israelis do it for three years.
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Originally posted by insidestory:
The non intellectually blessed one applies to only those who can't understand why they have to serve NS. Not about the US war in Iraq and Afghan. Don't even equate the suffering of American soldiers and middle eastern civilians in war time with obligatory NS conscription in this sheltered island. They don't even come close.
Come to think of it, the latter is done, in order to avoid the former.
Want to avoid being like the Iraqis or Kuwaitis, serve your NS like the Israelis dutifully do, and Israelis do it for three years.
Still, to claim that those who disagree with the war as not having a macro-view of the war is still quite unnecessary.
And the argument with Israelis is that they still have an protracted, ongoing conflict with the Arab states and despite serving for such a long period of NS, war hadn't entirely been avoided although it may have helped in some extent of deterrence.
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Originally posted by redwiner:
Still, to claim that those who disagree with the war as not having a macro-view of the war is still quite unnecessary.
And the argument with Israelis is that they still have an protracted, ongoing conflict with the Arab states and despite serving for such a long period of NS, war hadn't entirely been avoided although it may have helped in some extent of deterrence.
What are you talking about??! Israeli Army actually engages in aggressive military conflicts with Palestinian insurgencies. They conscript to actually fight, it goes beyond deterrence for them. I said that for us, our founding principles are conscript to deter, and if deterrence fails, to secure a swift victory. For them, it has gone beyond deterrence. So of course they have to conscript! They conscript to actually train for actual wars that take place every few years. I think you are confused. I say again: Want to avoid being like the Iraqis or Kuwaitis, serve your NS like the Israelis dutifully do, and Israelis do it for three years.
It is my opinion that those who cannot see the US war beyond its suffering do not have a macro view.
As for the topic of sending our regulars to these battle hotspots, my friends who are regulars all want to go there at some point. They say it is the self-actualisation of their profession and the closest to doing and being close to what they're trained to do.
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Originally posted by insidestory:
That is because he/she did not have the macro-view of the war.
Why I threw the shoe
I am no hero. I just acted as an Iraqi who witnessed the pain and bloodshed of too many innocents
I am free. But my country is still a prisoner of war. There has been a lot of talk about the action and about the person who took it, and about the hero and the heroic act, and the symbol and the symbolic act. But, simply, I answer: what compelled me to act is the injustice that befell my people, and how the occupation wanted to humiliate my homeland by putting it under its boot.
Over recent years, more than a million martyrs have fallen by the bullets of the occupation and Iraq is now filled with more than five million orphans, a million widows and hundreds of thousands of maimed. Many millions are homeless inside and outside the country.
We used to be a nation in which the Arab would share with the Turkman and the Kurd and the Assyrian and the Sabean and the Yazid his daily bread. And the Shia would pray with the Sunni in one line. And the Muslim would celebrate with the Christian the birthday of Christ. This despite the fact that we shared hunger under sanctions for more than a decade.
Our patience and our solidarity did not make us forget the oppression. But the invasion divided brother from brother, neighbour from neighbour. It turned our homes into funeral tents.
I am not a hero. But I have a point of view. I have a stance. It humiliated me to see my country humiliated; and to see my Baghdad burned, my people killed. Thousands of tragic pictures remained in my head, pushing me towards the path of confrontation. The scandal of Abu Ghraib. The massacre of Falluja, Najaf, Haditha, Sadr City, Basra, Diyala, Mosul, Tal Afar, and every inch of our wounded land. I travelled through my burning land and saw with my own eyes the pain of the victims, and heard with my own ears the screams of the orphans and the bereaved. And a feeling of shame haunted me like an ugly name because I was powerless.
As soon as I finished my professional duties in reporting the daily tragedies, while I washed away the remains of the debris of the ruined Iraqi houses, or the blood that stained my clothes, I would clench my teeth and make a pledge to our victims, a pledge of vengeance.
The opportunity came, and I took it.
I took it out of loyalty to every drop of innocent blood that has been shed through the occupation or because of it, every scream of a bereaved mother, every moan of an orphan, the sorrow of a rape victim, the teardrop of an orphan.
I say to those who reproach me: do you know how many broken homes that shoe which I threw had entered? How many times it had trodden over the blood of innocent victims? Maybe that shoe was the appropriate response when all values were violated.
When I threw the shoe in the face of the criminal, George Bush, I wanted to express my rejection of his lies, his occupation of my country, my rejection of his killing my people. My rejection of his plundering the wealth of my country, and destroying its infrastructure. And casting out its sons into a diaspora.
If I have wronged journalism without intention, because of the professional embarrassment I caused the establishment, I apologise. All that I meant to do was express with a living conscience the feelings of a citizen who sees his homeland desecrated every day. The professionalism mourned by some under the auspices of the occupation should not have a voice louder than the voice of patriotism. And if patriotism needs to speak out, then professionalism should be allied with it.
I didn't do this so my name would enter history or for material gains. All I wanted was to defend my country.
Muntazer al-Zaidi is an Iraqi reporter who was freed this week after serving nine months in prison for throwing his shoe at former US president George Bush at a press conference. This edited statement was translated by McClatchy Newspapers correspondent Sahar Issa www.mcclatchydc.com
http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2009/sep/17/why-i-threw-shoe-bush
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insidestory, if USA invades Singapore kills millions to install democracy, would you support Bush or throw shoe at Bush?
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Originally posted by insidestory:
It is my opinion that those who cannot see the US war beyond its suffering do not have a macro view.
That's true.
I see Iraq war from regional, U.S geopolitical and historical and economical view.
But it is quite clear that USA invaded Iraq to secure a foothold in the middle east so as to cement their global hegemony.
The same goes for Afghanistan.
That is completely clear.
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Originally posted by insidestory:
As for the topic of sending our regulars to these battle hotspots, my friends who are regulars all want to go there at some point. They say it is the self-actualisation of their profession and the closest to doing and being close to what they're trained to do.
There's no way that I would serve in USA imperialist wars to serve their dirty political agendas.
I am not a dog of the U.S.
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Originally posted by angel3070:
There's no way that I would serve in USA imperialist wars to serve their dirty political agendas.
I am not a dog of the U.S.
I am not pro west dog like Lee Kuan Yew.
No one invited or ask you.
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israel had a rough time in the arab israel war,,,and it still is...thats why they have a national service.but their reservist training is less tougher than spore.
go ask any israelis and they will tell u.isrealis will be shocked when they compare their slack reservist schedule as compared to spore reservist schedules(IPPT,remedial trainings,etc)
what kinda wars did spore fight with its neighbours in the 70's onwards?.....how many platoons were wiped out?
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Originally posted by Hitman3:
israel had a rough time in the arab israel war,,,and it still is...thats why they have a national service.but their reservist training is less tougher than spore.
go ask any israelis and they will tell u.isrealis will be shocked when they compare their slack reservist schedule as compared to spore reservist schedules(IPPT,remedial trainings,etc)
what kinda wars did spore fight with its neighbours in the 70's onwards?.....how many platoons were wiped out?
are you saying that the SAF reservist is very tough? If indeed SAF reservist is tougher than Israeli's (i'm doubtful), and Israel can win so many battles over Hezbollah, then I must say that SAF's doing something right, and this also explains why our enemies are deterred, as per our objectives, so that we need not set foot on their soil and beat the crap out of them.
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Originally posted by insidestory:
What are you talking about??! Israeli Army actually engages in aggressive military conflicts with Palestinian insurgencies. They conscript to actually fight, it goes beyond deterrence for them. I said that for us, our founding principles are conscript to deter, and if deterrence fails, to secure a swift victory. For them, it has gone beyond deterrence. So of course they have to conscript! They conscript to actually train for actual wars that take place every few years. I think you are confused. I say again: Want to avoid being like the Iraqis or Kuwaitis, serve your NS like the Israelis dutifully do, and Israelis do it for three years.
It is my opinion that those who cannot see the US war beyond its suffering do not have a macro view.
As for the topic of sending our regulars to these battle hotspots, my friends who are regulars all want to go there at some point. They say it is the self-actualisation of their profession and the closest to doing and being close to what they're trained to do.
What i am saying is that the Israel example doesn't entirely apply to Singapore context as we both are dealing with entirely different circumstances. They have to consript due to their precarious position and the history of aggression they had faced even before independence. And it's quite pointless using them as an example as do you seriously want to be in the same position as the Israelis?
Just learn to be more open-minded and accept that people do have differing values and priorities from you do, but that does not mean that their views aren't acceptable.It is my opinion that people who can't accept that others actually have a different opinion just don't have a macro-view of society as well.
And no, not all regulars want to go to those battle hotspots. I happen to know of many, including my relative who became a regular just because they view it as a stable job with a stable income. Call them cowards or whatever you want but they just want to steer clear from such places. Being trained in warfare doesn't equate to wanting to actually be involved in an actual war.
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TO INSIDER,
YOU DOUBT?and what do u mean u doubt?dont u get out around in the world?i talked to an israeli reservist many years ago and if they fail their ippt...they dont need to goto ippt or ipt or some time wasting remedial trainings for athelete prohgrams for their citizen soldier!
israel reservist just go to his commanders office and tell officer why he failed his ippt.after hearing,,,,,israeli commander justr says .."u can do better."{ end of story}no ippt or rt!!see...even the commander can say u can do better as final encouragement even though the next ippt is next year in israel....thats what the israeli reservist told me.
if u failed SAF ippt or never go for remedial athelete training due to civilian job commitments ..chances u will be scolded by commanding officer...maybe get charged and fined $$$$.
stop doubting people .............and go talk to an israeli reservist and find out first hand!
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Originally posted by Hitman3:
TO INSIDER,
YOU DOUBT?and what do u mean u doubt?dont u get out around in the world?i talked to an israeli reservist many years ago and if they fail their ippt...they dont need to goto ippt or ipt or some time wasting remedial trainings for athelete prohgrams for their citizen soldier!
israel reservist just go to his commanders office and tell officer why he failed his ippt.after hearing,,,,,israeli commander justr says .."u can do better."{ end of story}no ippt or rt!!see...even the commander can say u can do better as final encouragement even though the next ippt is next year in israel....thats what the israeli reservist told me.
if u failed SAF ippt or never go for remedial athelete training due to civilian job commitments ..chances u will be scolded by commanding officer...maybe get charged and fined $$$$.
stop doubting people .............and go talk to an israeli reservist and find out first hand!
If that is the case, then I am very proud that SAF is running a tight ship on whipping its NS men into shape.
As for getting around, you dun have to worry about me. I was friends with people from over 50 nationalities, some from countries i'm sure you haven't heard of like burkina faso. its just that that was during my college years and at the time, i had no interest or need to know anything remotely related to the army at all so it never came up. It was after I enlisted in sg that I became more familiar with army and wars, but of course when it happened, I was back stuck in this well with no exposure to the outside world, back in a backwater well in southeast asia that measures 600+ sq km. Thats what happens to the people who never left here. Or those who go on some mickey mouse shitty 6 month or 1 yr exchange programme and post on facebook that they're 'alumni' of a foreign university.
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Originally posted by redwiner:
What i am saying is that the Israel example doesn't entirely apply to Singapore context as we both are dealing with entirely different circumstances. They have to consript due to their precarious position and the history of aggression they had faced even before independence. And it's quite pointless using them as an example as do you seriously want to be in the same position as the Israelis?
Just learn to be more open-minded and accept that people do have differing values and priorities from you do, but that does not mean that their views aren't acceptable.It is my opinion that people who can't accept that others actually have a different opinion just don't have a macro-view of society as well.
And no, not all regulars want to go to those battle hotspots. I happen to know of many, including my relative who became a regular just because they view it as a stable job with a stable income. Call them cowards or whatever you want but they just want to steer clear from such places. Being trained in warfare doesn't equate to wanting to actually be involved in an actual war.
Did i say ALL SAF regulars want to go? Read what I wrote since you quoted me. I said my friends who are regulars. I know a lot of regulars in the course of my NS service, but they're not my friends. I'm not surprised at all, of examples of regulars like your relative, who actually form the bulk of the SAF regulars, who are there because of money or cos they can't get a job that pays them as well outside the SAF.
The regulars I know could have been anyone they wanted, and did anything they wished after A levels. Literally anything. Think along the lines of places in cambridge medicine, one with an MIT place and 10 scholarship offers in the bag. Before graduation, 3-4 PhD offers from renowned universities, throw in US$200K a year job offers from Accenture and McKinsey. They joined the service when they could have been anything else. So yes, they would want to experience Afghan as a form of self-actualisation.
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the same happened to a couple of female us army captain and leftenant.they all wanted to see action in iraq.they could be anything they wanted and earned as muchas any sporeans phd with years of experience.
in the end the leftenant lost her arm n captain lost her leg.both atheletic and stunners!
whats the difference between them and the above?
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Originally posted by insidestory:
Did i say ALL SAF regulars want to go? Read what I wrote since you quoted me. I said my friends who are regulars. I know a lot of regulars in the course of my NS service, but they're not my friends. I'm not surprised at all, of examples of regulars like your relative, who actually form the bulk of the SAF regulars, who are there because of money or cos they can't get a job that pays them as well outside the SAF.
The regulars I know could have been anyone they wanted, and did anything they wished after A levels. Literally anything. Think along the lines of places in cambridge medicine, one with an MIT place and 10 scholarship offers in the bag. Before graduation, 3-4 PhD offers from renowned universities, throw in US$200K a year job offers from Accenture and McKinsey. They joined the service when they could have been anything else. So yes, they would want to experience Afghan as a form of self-actualisation.
I didn't claim that you said that all regulars want to participate in an actual war or see a war for themselves. I'm just bringing up the fact that there are other who don't, plain and simple.
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buncha green horned eager beavers,,,,dats what really describes them!!!
haHA
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Originally posted by angel3070:
Looks like you don't know much about foreign politics.
You only know how to Copy copies than...."CUT and PASTE" thru out the entire forum...you want to tell everyone you know foreign politics...........!!!Infact there are no foreign politics....rather International Relation...and your "Copy copies than Cut and Paste" only got ONE DIRECTION...........you got no feedback loop....that side of the Brain is shut.... : }
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Why are you still here and why are you not in North Korea go joint Kim Jong IL ? nobody stopping you.... You are too coward to joint what you preach?
At least the SAF soldier who volunteer for past mission and many more truely put themselved into the Test. For both their believes and their profession.
The least you could do is to appreciate their sacrified rather than being a coward who sit and ridicule your fellow SAF? (although I sometime question if you are a fellow Sing)
Bimayan saw the destruction of the giant 6th century buddha statues....the international communities should have been there much early...
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to insidestory,
reservist training is harsh only in the non-combat perspectives.they only focus on athelete status and not on combat status.
instead of going for hand to hand combat or marksmanship and weapons training updates every week as a civilian ...they focus instead of running from point a-b in shortest time .i think the saf training is only meant to train people to be siam kia only....to takeover their job when the siam kias dont wanna come to spore anymore.after training to be some athlete....how u goin to fight some guy who trains in martial arts every week,shoots and improves his weapons and range skills.....learn new types of range finder and trajectory optimum locating.
any real mercenary or regular soldier finds ippt only contributes to 40% in the battlefield.what u goin to do ina battlefield with ippt???run 3km to kill an enemy who hides or takes a motorbike?run 3km to kill an enemy who is a marksman?u still gonna lose even if u increased ippt standards.do the israelis need to pass their ippt to win against the hizbollah??did they win the yom kippur war based on their ippt???from the israeli battlefield experience in the early years.........all those who got gold or silver all perished in the yom kippur battle.whats the difference in getting silver ,gold or not even passing ippt?in fact the minute u start to run 100 metres u would either be shot dead by enemy in less than 1.5mins.take an armoured vehicle or even a bicycle....u cant run away from a bullet that travels way faster than u can run in yer life time!hence the israeli commanders didnt take a serious view of stuff such as ippt....to them its an option despite them fighting in all sort of battles since 1960s on wards.
technology is what that counts!you can have a million soldiers all gold ippt soldiers...but they arent bullet proof.there are guns spewing out millions of bullets a minute.u can run but not hide.....yer millions of soldiers after decades of hard werk only lasted 10 minutes on battlefields!what u woulf get is a million dead gold ippt holders.
no!!they won it because they had the advantage of building their own weapons which are considered reliable and with greater firepower than their enemies.yES...they invent and build weapons to win wars and not focus it on some muscle headed strategy of being some athelete.they use science and technology!they know passing or failing ippt isnt important,,,,just make sure u dun die of heart attack on battlefield is important.
why you so proud SAF train u to be some kinda siam kia and not a real soldier??u like it is it??
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to further illustrate how unimportant ippt is....take the war with recruit australians and seasoned japanese veterans of elite marine units in world war 2.
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japanese marines:
1)chosen from "samurai" districts from ancient times from mainly Kochi city and outlaying districts
2)Genetics of people in that area were mainly samurai types fighting and recruiting people to fight for shoguns due to them being fabled warriors of Tosa province
3)Traditional japananese fiercest fighters since feudal japan and trained using US Marine standards
4)seasoned and experience with years of warfare
5)had simple arisaka rifle with only a machine gun for a battalion
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australian soldier:
1)had unfit ,in experienced,1month BMT and 16 year olds from accounts of japanese soldiers
2)had like more US made submachineguns and light machineguns in a 5 man team from photographs in a battle with japanese marines.
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Results of the battle:
the australians won and japanese were so badly defeated....the japs didnt even bother much about collecting the human remains of their fearless fierce samurais even after the war.
one japanese marine platoon commander had to kill an australian kid in battle who killed off his fierce samurai platoon with a submachinegun.
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conclusion:
its not bout your exposure to various army indoctrination programs.....its all about the state of the art weapons,equipment and strategy u are issued with that counts.
the rest like ippt are optional.
u may be a seasoned gold medal athelete from the olympics and may hang around with the best of the best wasting ther time and effort on being an athelete too.but what u dont know is that there are probably inexperienced people with the best technology that may finish u off overnight.
IPPT is a total waste of combat time,money and effort.should just be optional as it takes time and lotsa beef to build up strength and body.
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I agree with you that IPPT is not the only measurement of combat fitness. soldiering goes beyond fitness, and officers with IPPT silver can craft superior battle tactics that those with IPPT gold.(i've seen that happen among regulars)
it's being used by SAF as one of the gauges of reservist fitness is because it contributes to how they fare in the battle field. Like it or not, unless you are a gunner or an MO, IPPT is a measurement of your fitness level and hence, performance as a grunt and performance in reservist. look even if you are an infantry or guards officer, you have to walk for miles before you start fighting. not everyone has the luxury to be ferried about in a Bionix.
The fact is a lot of NS men get real plump and unfit after they ORD, since many do sedentary jobs. before you can even get into what they remember of battle tactics, they need to be whipped into acceptable shape first. There has only been one brilliant military tactician who is grossly overweight, and he later became the CDF.
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Originally posted by Hitman3:
to further illustrate how unimportant ippt is....take the war with recruit australians and seasoned japanese veterans of elite marine units in world war 2.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
japanese marines:
1)chosen from "samurai" districts from ancient times from mainly Kochi city and outlaying districts
2)Genetics of people in that area were mainly samurai types fighting and recruiting people to fight for shoguns due to them being fabled warriors of Tosa province
3)Traditional japananese fiercest fighters since feudal japan and trained using US Marine standards
4)seasoned and experience with years of warfare
5)had simple arisaka rifle with only a machine gun for a battalion
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australian soldier:
1)had unfit ,in experienced,1month BMT and 16 year olds from accounts of japanese soldiers
2)had like more US made submachineguns and light machineguns in a 5 man team from photographs in a battle with japanese marines.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Results of the battle:
the australians won and japanese were so badly defeated....the japs didnt even bother much about collecting the human remains of their fearless fierce samurais even after the war.
one japanese marine platoon commander had to kill an australian kid in battle who killed off his fierce samurai platoon with a submachinegun.
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conclusion:
its not bout your exposure to various army indoctrination programs.....its all about the state of the art weapons,equipment and strategy u are issued with that counts.
the rest like ippt are optional.
u may be a seasoned gold medal athelete from the olympics and may hang around with the best of the best wasting ther time and effort on being an athelete too.but what u dont know is that there are probably inexperienced people with the best technology that may finish u off overnight.
IPPT is a total waste of combat time,money and effort.should just be optional as it takes time and lotsa beef to build up strength and body.
Dun compare different countries with SAF. Every army has a different MO for war.