Originally posted by vicamour:I understand threadstarter's intention of this thread but please you do not have to scold vulgarities at others.
Back to topic, I have to agree with threadstarter that females should also serve NS. National Service, national security, serving the country shouldn't just fall in the hands of just one group of people, Singaporean males but it is the responsibility of all and every Singaporean. So shouldn't it be more reasonable for all Singaporeans males and females to do national service, since the govt had emphasize the importance of national security?
Today, females also demands sex equality among their male peers. In that case, shouldn't they serve NS as well to prove their capabilities to match their male peers? There are also females who are much stronger and probably more eager to serve the country. Look the the US army, there is no differentiation, Males and females together go to trainings, go to real time war in places like the Middle East. Although US soldiers are not forced conscripted soldiers, however, the females proved to be as equally good as their male peers.
If the arguement is that having females in active units may hinder training, the SAF should do a screening to all females to determine which are the ones suitable for combatual units and which are not. However I feel that as long as the training program is correct and well organised, and probably proper seggregation can be done for different groups of soldiers, be it males or females, training both male and female soldiers are still possible.
For those are not for combatual units, they can be assigned to other provisional vocations like store personnel, cooks for cookhouse (hence save the costs of outsourcing), medics and MOs, drivers, guards or other vocations that females can do as well, if they are not suitable for combatual units. Rather than having PES D and E personnels, males and females, still serving the army whilst being "untouchables" in some aspects, hence wasting SAF money and degrading efficiencies and wasting time of these people, where they can be more useful in the society working instead. I think that the PES D and E people can still contribute much to the workforce if not in the army.
Having females in the army will also balance out the senseless macho-ism and egoness within the males in the army. One of the SAF rules "Care for soldiers" doens't really apply in what it is said from the mouth. I guess the need for some femanism is needed to emphasise this pharse, as females tends to be more compassionate and caring, rather than pushing soldiers to the limits by male egoness and dirty politics and senseless and inefficient punishments with thousands of push ups everyweek, driving soldiers into madness and hatred.
However the great irony faced by NS personnel is that they are not properly rewarded for the 2 years that they have sacrificed in their lives, and on top of the 2 years forced conscriptions, they still have to waste their time every year to come back for ICT, IPPT and still get penalised (e.g, RT, fines, DB) during these periods of times. It is adding more stress to their lives where life is already so stressful with health, career, money, famil, etc. And the annual ICTs as mentioned by members in their former posts, are disrupting their work, career advancements, and threatened by their female collegues and foreigners who may snatch their ricebowls, and this is especially so for males who need to support a family.
What angers most Singapreans is that today the career landscape is getting more competitive because more foreigners are snatching away jobs, be it blue collar or white collar jobs. The greatest irony is that the govt blamed their own citizens for not being productive enough, do not go for enough upgrading courses to keep themselves relevant and competitive in the job market. However I would like to ask these people, given how much time is wasted on these annual IPPTs and ICTs and how disrupting and exhausting these activities are, how can we be more productive than foreigners, and how are we able to find time and energy for upgrading courses, because of these annual useless activities, and time spent on OTs in work just to clear backlogs because of these annual useless activities.
A real fact that I faced from my university studies, the foreign students are much younger than me when they graduated, a few even have their own business even they are almost the same age as me. I was pretty envious and also upset about this because if I am the same as them, I might probably got my degree even way before I reach 25 and just like these people, being able to continue to stay relevant to the society, able to land myself a better job prospect, as being younger and having more energy and vibrant than the age I got my degree after I served NS.
The most upsetting thing now is that I am not even properly compensated after ORD, just a useless piece of COS that doesn't prove any worth in helping to find a job. I still need to pay high COEs and ERPs just to buy a car, else everyday have to squeeze like a sardine in a MRT to work and even ICT, facing some grouses from people who don't even serve NS, saying we are smelly and dirty. I also have to queue and pay ridicularsly high prices for a small HDB flat. Worse, just to get myself a job, I have to risk the competition from a larger population, means more people, more foreigners, with sacarstic remarks from the govt saying we are not as good and productive as foreingers and we do not have enough upgrading to stay competitive which ironically our time and energy is wasted in these useless annual activities.
I don't see the great deal of repaying the SGD9000 to us as it is nothing to the time and youth we had sacrificed for NS. I will feel more appreciated if I can comfortably afford my own wheel and roof, being able to get a job much easier after ORD and have the flexibility to choose our own ICT timeframes to use more time to focus more on our career, stay relevant to the working world, and spend more time with my family and friends, which are more relevant problems that we are facing now.
Lastly to threadstarter, many of us understand your agony about this, but since you have gone through all these shit, no use of complaining but focus on what you should do instead. Downgrade, migrate and leave Singapore or go for a sex change. I agree that there is too much sexism in this country resulting an inbalance treatment between both sexes and thus resulting in too much social problems in this country.
Maybe you should think for your next generation. Think whether you should get married and have a child and let him suffer like you are serving NS in future. For what I see how this ungrateful govt is treating us now, I don't see the need to have more offsprings in future to suffer just to afford their selfishness and million dollar salaries, plus their continuous blaming on their own citizens where their own policies to protect themselves contradicts to what they should serve the people instead.
Also your frustrations on having to cut your hair, dye your hair black when going to ICT. I think this is nothing much as compared to applying exit permits to leave the country. This is certainly one of the most insulting rule to us, Singapore male citizens and as a citizen of our own country, who have shred our blood and tears, sacrifice our time and energy, be it during 2 years of NS or 10 years of ICT cycle, have to be treated like a criminal, to seek permission to leave the country where a citizen has the right to leave the country freely as long as they have a passport. I certainly feel more like a prisoner rather than a appreciated Singapore citizen.
^^ (See Also)
Impact of RT on males salary and/or even landing a job:
http://www.sgforums.com/forums/1390/topics/427376
Another impact of this blantant anti-local-talent anti-male policy that should be raised and be on the back of everyone's mind.
It is just not right that we have to suck it and take it just because we are born as males. NS have greatly disadvantaged LOCAL MALES, in terms of the lost of the 2 (to 2.5-3 before the more recent reduction) years of their lives and career, and the impact of having to do reservice time every year making them us less competitive to be hired compared to female-people and foreign-talents (especially for those who have to do RT). But since almost all LOCAL male-persons have to do it anyway, we tend to just take it and get it over with; and no females are crazy enough to speak out against such blantant gender-inequality either to their own disadvantage. But an unfairness (that can be fixed) persists (and should be fixed).
A lot of gender-inqualities were abolished for females (i.e. they can have a career, not expected to stay in the kitchen to make "their men" sandwitches, can wear other clothing instead of just skirts, etc) however the sexist gender-role attitude towards men hasn't changed. For guys, as an example, we are forced to cut our hair short to adhere strictly to the artificial "male" image since primary school, and this continues on to our annual reservices. Not to mention the insults and bullying for males who do not conform to the silly western-machismo mould. It is not just NS that I'm against, but the general western-machismo culture that I'm against; but that is for a different topic.
NS inhibits opportunities for guys to live their dreams as musicians. Many bands, including mine were disbanded due to the toll of NS (especially with me having to do more than 15 guard duties every mth after 9/11, pretty much all weekends burnt) at the time, and where guard rest is treated as a privilege for us severely underpaid slaves. And after NS, everyone have lost their drive, with the mild depression due to constant stress working in that environment of "dark-politics" and "unreasonability", and losing their life and careers and opportunities of youth while stuck in NS.
Whoever who says NS is a waste of time can afford to do so thanks to those who do not sleep tonight.
problem is if they make e boys do NS, who's going to do so?
somemore though we're rich today, we do need the money on things like MRT.
If malaysia can enlist women into their NS, I wonder why singapore can't?
Originally posted by SBS2601D:Whoever who says NS is a waste of time can afford to do so thanks to those who do not sleep tonight.
Correction: "Whoever who says NS is a waste of time can afford to do so thanks to those (MALES) who do not sleep tonight." (Not females nor the non-serving so-called foreign-talents).
Again, the issue isn't really about having to do NS, but about blantant gender-inequality; and secondnarily, the severe unfairness towards local-talents that has resulted. It IS a waste of time for people like me since I'm migrating anyway.
Originally posted by Phorum Noob:Correction: "Whoever who says NS is a waste of time can afford to do so thanks to those (MALES) who do not sleep tonight." (Not females nor the non-serving so-called foreign-talents).
Again, the issue isn't really about having to do NS, but about blantant gender-inequality; and secondnarily, the severe unfairness towards local-talents that has resulted. It IS a waste of time for people like me since I'm migrating anyway.
wrong.
female regulars shouldn't be forgotten.
Think RSS Courageous. Who paid the ultimate price in the line of duty?
Its the very gender you claim has an advantage.
RIP
We do not need females to do NS with the armed forces...because we dont need them to. Other services, maybe, but at the moment there doesnt seem to be the need.
Already with only males we have so many inefficiencies...can we afford that in other bureaucracies?
No doubt. However, regardless, it is still NOT the issue that we are focusing here (read my second paragraph again).
Regulars volunteers for this job (because they want to - i.e. they have a CHOICE), and are properly paid for their work. NS-male-personals are forced into the under-compensated and under-appreaciated service and with all the mistreatements within.
Even though I would disagree that females can't serve the military for NS (considering that the female-regulars have no problems serving). It is only YOU who were focusing on the armed forces here. There are many other types of NS that the majority of healthy women can spend 2.5 years of their lives doing, and to do 20-30 years of reservice there after, instead of heaving PES Ds and Es inside.
Further, what does inefficiencies have to do with gender? Why would there be more inefficiences if females serve NS? Many of the inefficiences in the military, I see, tends to be due to unmotivated demoralised slave-workers being forced into do what they didn't want to.
And finally, what about the disadvantage imparted on local-males VS "foreign-talents" and females in their careers (especially those in commission based jobs, and work requiring efficiency not being aptly compensated) due to NS and reservices? What about males being disadvantaged in finding job, or leaving bad impression or even getting pay-reductions due to having to do RT, etc? These are the issues that is the focus of this topic.
Originally posted by SBS2601D:
wrong.female regulars shouldn't be forgotten.
Think RSS Courageous. Who paid the ultimate price in the line of duty?
Its the very gender you claim has an advantage.
RIP
We do not need females to do NS with the armed forces...because we dont need them to. Other services, maybe, but at the moment there doesnt seem to be the need.
Already with only males we have so many inefficiencies...can we afford that in other bureaucracies?
I tend to disagree on these. Firstly you are giving an impression that you are dispising females because they are not as good as males, hence they are not needed to serve national service.
If males are so superior in doing anything right in every aspects in the society and economy, then why do we need or have females working in the society instead? In your point of view, if females are deemed unsuitable in achieveing anything in the society, including serving the nation, then what is their role in the society? Just staying at homes being housewives and bearing babies all their lives?
As I have mentioned earlier, everyone is responsible for national security nowadays, especially now is a globalised world, overpopulated global population, the risk of international sercurity heightens, especially after 2001 911 attacks. Since national security is getting more important in the 21st century, shouldn't everyone, every citizen be responsible doing their part, for upholding national security for the country instead? National service and upholding national security shouldn't just fall in the hands of one group of people only, which is the Singaporean males, but it should be stretched to females as well because they are the citizens as well. The idea of only males doing NS is obselete and should be abolished, especially in the globalised modern world in the 21st century, where females demand gender equality. If you read the Straits Times today, even potential election female candidates and MPs demand merit based achievements, instead of being categorised based on genders. Even females wants their part to serve the country now, shouldn't they be included for National Services as well to increase manpowers and armpowers, for peace times and in times of crisis?
Moreover it's mentioned that with majority males, the armed forces are having too many inefficiencies. So shouldn't some females be included to balance out the ineffieciencies? Inefficiencies came about because there isn't a proper system to start with, there isn't a different point of view to change, optimise and streamline the way things are going, and a female point of view will change and balance these inefficiencies, because there will be a different kind of voice will do the change. Females can typically change the mindsets of how a inefficient male environment works mentally, and shouldn't be physically motivating others. I don't think that females in the armed forces will bring down the inefficiencies but the hestitation for the dare to change for females in the armed forces will continue such inefficencies forever and even bring down further.
Aside from removing these inefficiencies, females can also contribute further to national service by adding suitable and more willing manpower and removing inefficient Pes D and E personnels, males and females, from the force, hence helping the armed forces to save unnecessary costs, manpower and time in retaining and using these people whom in many ways cannot contribute much in the armed forces. They can be put into better use into the society where they can contribute better like working in the society.
Moreover very talented Singaporeans in other aspects like sports, arts and culture, and other areas should be considered delaying their NS to their later years where these extraordinary talents can be cultivated when they are young and fully contribute to these areas in the global arena, like the Olympics, World Cup, putting Singaporeans and Singapore proud in the global arena based on our own merits and achievements, instead of relying on imports of foreigners whom skills are not cultivated here and don't realy represent our own country based on our own efforts and merits.
I think NS is a big hinderance of drowning local talents, especially unfair to a group of people, Singapore males, burying their times and dreams in displaying their talents which can further put Singapore and Sinagporeans proud in the global arena. It will be better that everyone can contribute to uphold national sercurity, and removing those who are not suitable and inefficient, where they can further put their talents and abilities and most importantly time, to better uses that can contribute to Singapore in another way. Pretty ironic to say that there are not enough talents in Singapore, which it's own obselete and unfair system that drowns and buries all the possible talents deep into inefficient environments which are not open and flexible in displaying efficiencies and talents. Hence a lot of time of their lives wasted in such environments where they can contribute better elsewhere, which is a pretty sad thing where we can only live once.
What would happen in times of war? You going to put potential rape victims out on the front lines? I'm all for gender equality within limits. Like not asking guys to give birth. Seriously, "Politically Correct" is fine, as long as it does not start denying reality. And reality is, in wartime, rules mostly go out the window and mass deployment of girls on the front lines are just asking for a rape incident.
Reservist training is worse than NS, because the men are interrupted while they are doing whatever.
Silicon, I'm sure it was an accident, I mean, how were they going to know you were doing that when they called?
:lol:
Just joking.
On a more serious note, I rather NS than work. Need a time to get away from all that work stress.
Look from a more realistic view-point:
Need trumps "equality".
Not only that, fiscal position: If we don't need females to do NS, then just males doing the compulsory stuff is good enough. We don't want increasing expenses for things that are not that necessary. We don't want more manpower because even with this male-only environment we get to wait for this...and that. We do need more people in some branches though, like RSN. Do you honestly think that for all the crowing that our frigates need only 80 men, it is sustainable in a drawn-out war? And I highlighted that branch because NS wouldn't help much there, and only precious few positions can be done by NSFs, who do need plenty of time to get used to ship-board life. Reducing NS there is rather unthinkable.
Think about the statement about females replacing PES E and Ds. It will just blur the lines between who needs and who doesn't need to serve NS. At the present moment, it is clear. Unless you suffer some debillitating diesease and are not a male SG citizen, you serve the nation. It makes things clearer for all of us.
As for "time-wasting", it all depends on your view-point. NS did good to me and I did not consider it an utter waste of time.
You can't have a perfect system, and not everyone benefits by the same amount. The conscript system is a good example.
True, SBS is correct, the LOBO units you can go crazy with boredom, the happening units are a lot more fun.
Also, if mummy and daddy go to war, who's going to care for little Suzy? The maid? Maids don't get hazard pay for that, run at 1st gunshot, Suzy can take care of herself... right.
And if mummy and daddy were unlucky enough to eat a JDAM?
This way, at least you have one parent to rely on in case the other one dies. Maybe. Provided the residential areas don't get bombed too.
If you think our national service is bad, this is a taste of what the israeli defence force conscripts/reservists have to go thru:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4SQPwS-R3cs
-3 years of active service
-20 years of reservist
One thing to note, their reservist got no high or low key, its all real time combat duty. In singapore even if your unit was operational, your in camp training still got time to squeeze in canteen breaks anytime you want, and all the showers you wanna take. What are the chances you go out there and get shot at? Or worry about taking an SBS bus that can blow up anytime.
I agree with u but for the Israeli Defence Force both male & female need to fulfil the NS liability.
SBS2601D: Need trumps "equality". ... ... ...
Even if that is so, there still ought to be a system where people who are born as (local) males are not disadvantaged. There should to be an appropriate level of compensation as I've already suggested a couple of pages back to make things fair for local male-persons.
Think about the statement about females replacing PES E and Ds. It will just blur the lines between who needs and who doesn't need to serve NS.
I honestly can't see how what would be the case. Pes A and B males and females need to spend 2 years of their youth in service, Pes Es and Ds "regardless of any genders" don't. How is that even vaguely confusing?
Again, of course things can't be perfectly fair, but there are areas where we could improve on, and we should.
Originally posted by ditzy:If you think our national service is bad, this is a taste of what the israeli defence force conscripts/reservists have to go thru:
Ditto to shinkansen. And further, even if there are places that are worse, that still doesn't mean that we should do nothing about things that are not as fkedup comparatively speaking; because it still IS regardless of what's going on elsewhere.
That in Egypt and other Islamic states where women are treated badly , does not mean that we should not care about gender inequality of women in the workplace. Similarly, the sexist gender-expectation for males to serve NS just because they are males (w/o anything close to a fair compensation) should be fixed, regardless of how mandatory military service conditions are like elsewhere.
gender policies are my decision to cast my vote
Stupid sexist gender-rules for males. No freedom of self-expression at all. Males are still expected to be fugly thick-hairy macho-cavemens who's role is to be tuff and strong, and to die in wars for the sake of female-people. Even the more modern-thinking males, who doesn't care about being aggressive, violent and act tuff, nor care about becoming "fat" with muscles and have muscle-moobs that they can thump on, are pressured into conforming by the primitive machismo male-society.
http://sgforums.com/forums/1390/topics/374910
just last week i went for my rt in khatib and the instructor complained abt my hairstyle and said i have to do something to it if not they can charge me. what kind of rules is that?
but im a farking civillian now..why would i want to look ugly for the next few months/years just to follow their rules? i think they already tan tio if i show up for rt
Originally posted by Underpaid:What would happen in times of war? You going to put potential rape victims out on the front lines? I'm all for gender equality within limits. Like not asking guys to give birth. Seriously, "Politically Correct" is fine, as long as it does not start denying reality. And reality is, in wartime, rules mostly go out the window and mass deployment of girls on the front lines are just asking for a rape incident.
I'm rather surprised and horrified at this statement. So you mean that all Singaporeans go to war without teamwork? You mean everyone just care for their own business and charge without a proper plan and teamwork? And when our war mates are in danger, we shouldn't go and save them? And since females are more easily victimised, then all the more shouldn't they learn how to combat against enemies to protect themselves instead?
So you mean that male soldiers just go ahead and care about their lives when their female soldiers got victimized? No teamwork? No care for other soldiers and let our own war mates die and suffer while the rest run away? If that is the case on how we treat each other, then Singapore is doomed.
And how about when majority of males only got wiped out completely? So Singapore surrender already? Fighting fit and able bodied females can't fight till the last end? Or still insist on males, those old and frail ones, those young and innocent kids, to fight the war? If this is how this army is going to work, then don't waste lives. Might as well surrender without these sacrifices.
Hey but females cannot fire rifles because the impact will hurt their boobies right.
Joke aside, someone said that they would rather go do their reservist duty than work as it is some form of stress relief.
My stance, reduce ns to 1 year.....cheaper and faster to get out of ns.
just mete out the punishment to them with your coming veto
I am fine with NS, go study a bit of history and geopolitics and you'll immediately apperciate the necessity of it. Your lost opportunities, what musicians, and what have you not will largely be an irrelevant topic.
My main issue is how the system has come to treat our soldiers after we have done our duty. There is no doubt that there is a big issue in this regard.
Is being a soldier some western-imposed maschio role? I don't know, I just see it as quite simply learning personally how to protect my loved ones and learning a skillset that I find will be useful in extreme situtations. If you are the kind that think all this is not for you and like living in that bubble of happiness where your loved ones are never under threat and you don't need to do anything because you assume they will never be threatened, then good for you then.
It's how you approach NS that determines what you take out of it. There's a ton of crap in the system but it made me a stronger person. Not to mention it was a time where I got to do some of the more interesting things in my life- rappel out of helicopters, make improvsed exposives to blow things sky high, live for days in the jungle, confuse my men with unexpected pranks and what have you not. Come to think of it, I enjoyed my time in NS, it's the lack of respect I feel the system has for treating this sacrifice properly after we've left it that is such a slap in the face. The flippant attitude towards NS in our FT policy and recently one PAP MP candidate shows it quite well.
I don't know about what gender equality or roles or what, but I know that if I can learn to better protect my loved ones, it's something I am willing to do.
The problem I dare say, is not that NS is a waste of time and not worth doing... but that over recent years Singaporea has become a place in which our sacrifices in NS are becoming less and less worth it.
What are we defending and making safe exactly? A system that shortchanges us in the end?
The latest so-called payouts of NSmen are another slap in the face, especially when those who had served get the short end of it.