NS Default: Never Step into SG/Extradition Treaty Countries?
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Hi, i'm 16 this year and will be going into ITE next year, then Polytechnic.
By the time I complete my diploma in Poly, I will be 22, and I intend to find some work with that diploma, probably in Australia.
My parents (Msia-born, then grew up in Australia), had me n my bro in Msia [some relatives there], then migrated both of us here (I was about 4 years old).
Didn't know we were going to be liable for NS etc. so just let it pass and my parents have already made plans with my relatives in Australia to migrate there in the middle of my studies.
My bro was not schooling when he turned 18 so he had to enlist for NS, and he's now serving.
When he's done in about a year more, they've decided to all migrate to Australia as planned, so i'll be the last person of my family line staying here in Singapore for those few years then doing NS on my own.
I've spoken to them about my concerns about my liabilities and also having to stay at the army camp as my home during my service since I won't be able to afford basic accomodation with their salary, and they told me to think about it carefully for myself which is why i'm here.
I need some second opinions...i'm a very Westernized guy because my family/household is just like that, don't forgot my parents grew up, studied and worked in Australia before giving birth to me in Malaysia, so i've got the accent and the culture in Australia is fantastic for me (been there on some family vacations).
I don't see any reason i'd need to return to Singapore, and if i'm flying from Australia up to say, Europe, there's bound to be airlines that have stopovers in Hong Kong, Dubai or Thailand instead of Singapore, so I wouldn't ever need to be in transit here.
I also don't buy into the "what if the plane needs to make an emergency landing?" myth, simply because I just won't take an airline that will be flying near/over Singapore.
Anyway, many apologies for the long post, i'm just in a real bind.
To the many Singaporean males who have served NS, I know you've been in a similiar seat to mine before and I applaud you for your strength to see the decision through in that direction, but I hope you'll understand my situation and advise me accordingly.
I'm not saying i'm any different or should be treated any different from the other NS defaulters, I just want to know if I should or shouldn't, considering that if I DO do my NS, it would take away these 2 years (then reservists) which I could better spend elsewhere.
And If I DO default, what sort of consequences am I looking at?
Not returning to Singapore/ stopping over in transit flight?
A criminal as far as Singapore is concerned?
(P.S- i've spoken to MINDEF about my issue, and they basically told me I either do it when the time comes or i'm a wanted man in Singapore's eyes.) -
Those who are liable to serve national service but refuse are charged under the Enlistment Act. If convicted, they face three years' imprisonment and a fine of S$10,000.
Controversy arose when the penalties were increased in January 2006 after Melvyn Tan, who was born in Singapore, received a fine for defaulting on his National Service obligations. Tan left for London to study music during his enlistment age and later acquired British nationality. In parliament, Defence Minister Teo Chee Hean provided some illustration of the punishments defaulters would face:
- Where the default period exceeds two years but the defaulter is young enough to serve his full-time and operationally ready NS duties in full, MINDEF will press for a short jail sentence.
- Where the defaulter has reached an age when he cannot serve his full-time NS in a combat vocation or fulfil his operationally ready NS obligations in full, a longer jail sentence to reflect the period of NS he has evaded may be appropriate.
- Where the defaulter has reached an age when he cannot be called up for NS at all, a jail sentence up to the maximum of three years may be appropriate.
Each year, a small number of people are convicted for their failure to enlist or refusal to be conscripted. Most of them were Jehovah's Witnesses, who are usually court-martialled and sentenced to three years' imprisonment, but they are usually held in a low-security detention facility and separated from other conscription offenders. The government does not consider conscientious objection to be a legal reason for refusal to serve NS.
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Currently, to the best of my knowledge, I think just Singapore (I'm not sure if I still have the Malaysian one since people say Singapore doesn't recognize duals, Malaysia might have renounced me automatically).
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Originally posted by Cavemanzipper:
Hi, i'm 16 this year and will be going into ITE next year, then Polytechnic.
By the time I complete my diploma in Poly, I will be 22, and I intend to find some work with that diploma, probably in Australia.
My parents (Msia-born, then grew up in Australia), had me n my bro in Msia [some relatives there], then migrated both of us here (I was about 4 years old).
Didn't know we were going to be liable for NS etc. so just let it pass and my parents have already made plans with my relatives in Australia to migrate there in the middle of my studies.
My bro was not schooling when he turned 18 so he had to enlist for NS, and he's now serving.
When he's done in about a year more, they've decided to all migrate to Australia as planned, so i'll be the last person of my family line staying here in Singapore for those few years then doing NS on my own.
I've spoken to them about my concerns about my liabilities and also having to stay at the army camp as my home during my service since I won't be able to afford basic accomodation with their salary, and they told me to think about it carefully for myself which is why i'm here.
I need some second opinions...i'm a very Westernized guy because my family/household is just like that, don't forgot my parents grew up, studied and worked in Australia before giving birth to me in Malaysia, so i've got the accent and the culture in Australia is fantastic for me (been there on some family vacations).
I don't see any reason i'd need to return to Singapore, and if i'm flying from Australia up to say, Europe, there's bound to be airlines that have stopovers in Hong Kong, Dubai or Thailand instead of Singapore, so I wouldn't ever need to be in transit here.
I also don't buy into the "what if the plane needs to make an emergency landing?" myth, simply because I just won't take an airline that will be flying near/over Singapore.
Anyway, many apologies for the long post, i'm just in a real bind.
To the many Singaporean males who have served NS, I know you've been in a similiar seat to mine before and I applaud you for your strength to see the decision through in that direction, but I hope you'll understand my situation and advise me accordingly.
I'm not saying i'm any different or should be treated any different from the other NS defaulters, I just want to know if I should or shouldn't, considering that if I DO do my NS, it would take away these 2 years (then reservists) which I could better spend elsewhere.
And If I DO default, what sort of consequences am I looking at?
Not returning to Singapore/ stopping over in transit flight?
A criminal as far as Singapore is concerned?
(P.S- i've spoken to MINDEF about my issue, and they basically told me I either do it when the time comes or i'm a wanted man in Singapore's eyes.)did they forgot to tell you you are a wanted man even after you have completed national service for certain reasons?its a crime too under their directive if you were to go out without their approval when you stop donning the army uniform once you are a reservist.
currently those reservists are only allowed to leave singapore if they have work overseas or studies overseas or perhaps they might grant an exit permit for you joining your folks in oz or you tell them you are immigrating.its upto them.but if you were to serve ns the accomodation would be the issue in hand.
defaulting would be years in a military prison.heard rumours they are usually naked inside.even reservists get it when they return to spore after working overseas without valid documents.first on landing ,they get arrested at aiurport and get housed at airport lockup.then they get transported to kranji or some far out jungle prison.dont know if transit would be affected as you have not went thru customs with the computer and people looking at the photo documents of wanted people.you arent the only person who is wanted really.once many deacades ago,there were documents and pictures of wanted people in spore and the customs had them at airport customs counter physically.
and no,im not a defaulter.i didnt run away or anything.i did my ns and found out later on i had been sold out by spore and its counterproductive labour policies.and once above 40 yrs old,it would be hard to get any work if you are retrenched even if you are a degree holder as its the culture there mostly.only job would be a low paying job probably commandeered by people that have not done any ns in any country.its alright if they are polite and professional but they are mostly nasty , power hungry and rude.not much different than a fish monger. thanks to the many sporeans and people who see nothing,know nothing and hear nothing.
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not sure what kind of immigration they intend to go for in oz unless they are doctors.
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Originally posted by Cavemanzipper:
Currently, to the best of my knowledge, I think just Singapore (I'm not sure if I still have the Malaysian one since people say Singapore doesn't recognize duals, Malaysia might have renounced me automatically).
Then you should just do NS here as a Singaporean. It will give you options in the future.Unlike others, who have never stayed in Singapore or never knew that he has a pink ic, your case is different.
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you should serve because you don't know what may happened in the future let's said maybe not transit but maybe a job that required you to travel to these regions. Don't tell me you are going to turn in down or resigned if you job scope change?
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Source: www.mindef.gov.sg
Written Reply by Minister for Defence Dr Ng Eng Hen to Parliamentary Question on National Service (NS) Defaulters
Posted: 10 Jan 2012, 1100 hours (Time is GMT +8 hours)Mr Lim Biow Chuan: To ask the Minister for Defence how many National Service (NS) defaulters have been sentenced to imprisonment for defaulting NS over the past three years and whether all NS defaulters will be sentenced to imprisonment.
Minister: Over the past three years, five National Service (NS) defaulters have been sentenced to imprisonment by the Court.
To maintain equity of treatment and the commitment for all who are liable to serve their NS, it is necessary to take a tough stand against the few who default on their NS obligations. MINDEF will press for a custodial sentence on the NS defaulter based on the length of default and the following guidelines:
a. Short jail sentence. Where the default period exceeds two years but the defaulter is young enough to serve his full-time and operationally ready NS (ORNS) duties in full, MINDEF will press for a short jail sentence.
b. Longer jail sentence. Where the defaulter has reached an age when he cannot serve his full-time NS in a combat vocation or fulfil his ORNS obligations in full, MINDEF will press for a longer jail sentence to reflect the period of NS evaded.
c. Maximum jail sentence. Where the defaulter has passed the age of 40 and cannot be called up for NS at all, MINDEF will press for a jail sentence up to the maximum of three years.
The Court decides on the sentence received by NS defaulters taking into consideration the circumstances of the individual case and the sentence MINDEF has pressed for. After their punishments by the Court, NS defaulters who are still NS-liable will have to serve NS.
NS DefaultersIn line with these three principles, MINDEF has consistently taken a tough stand against those who default on their National Service obligations. We have introduced various measures over the years to prevent such persons from evading National Service. For example, the Constitution was amended in 1979 so that those who refused to serve could not escape their National Service obligation by simply renouncing their citizenship. Only those who have emigrated at a young age and have not enjoyed substantial socio-economic benefits are allowed to renounce their citizenship without serving National Service.
Since 1970, we have required pre-enlistees who are going overseas for an extended period to post a bond as a promise that they will return to fulfil their National Service obligation. The bond quantum was $20,000 in 1970 and it has been increased over the years. Since 1992, the bond quantum has been set at $75,000 or half the combined annual income of the parents, whichever is higher. The bond is however not a substitute for National Service. If a pre-enlistee fails to return to serve his National Service, not only has he broken his bond but, more importantly, he has broken his promise and broken the law by not returning to fulfil his National Service obligation. The bond quantum that is forfeited is the penalty he has to pay for breaking the bond. It is not redemption and not a substitute for National Service. He still has to face the law for failing to comply with his National Service obligations under the Enlistment Act; and he still remains liable for National Service.
There is strong support for National Service among Singaporeans. Every year only a small number, about 0.5% of those liable for NS each year, or on average 100 unresolved cases of NS defaulters a year over the past five years, fail to register or enlist for National Service, or fail to return after their exit permits expired. The vast majority of these defaulters are overseas.
An average of 12 NS defaulters a year were charged in Court for failing to comply with the Enlistment Act. The offences carry a sentence of up to three years imprisonment, a fine of up to $5,000, or both. The sentence is decided by the Court based on the circumstances of each case. Besides answering to the Court, NS defaulters who are still Singaporeans and below the age of 40 will have to serve National Service.Penalties for NS defaultersSir, let me now touch on the issue of punishment for NS defaulters. The legal framework for National Service is contained in two pieces of legislation – the Enlistment Act and the Singapore Armed Forces Act.
The Enlistment Act applies to all Singaporeans and Permanent Residents from age 16½ to 40, or age 50 in the case of officers. The Act provides for the registration and enlistment of those liable for National Service, and also for the requirement to apply for an Exit Permit or to notify MINDEF when going overseas. Those who fail to comply with the provisions of the Enlistment Act are dealt with in the civil courts regardless of whether they are pre-enlistees, full-time NSmen or Operationally Ready NSmen. On conviction, they can be sentenced to a jail term of up to three years, or a fine of up to $5,000, or both.
The Singapore Armed Forces Act deals with those in the service of the SAF and contains provisions pertaining to their conduct and discipline. Those in the service of the SAF comprise regulars, full-time NSmen, and Operationally Ready NSmen who have been served an order to report for service. Pre-enlistees are not subject to the Singapore Armed Forces Act as they are not yet in the service of the SAF. Servicemen who commit offences under the Singapore Armed Forces Act are dealt with either in the Subordinate Military Court or by SAF disciplinary officers.
NS defaulters are dealt with under the Enlistment Act as they have failed to respond to orders to register or enlist for National Service, or failed to comply with Exit Permit requirements. MINDEF’s approach in dealing with NS defaulters has been to charge them in Court for Enlistment Act offences and let the Court impose an appropriate sentence based on the circumstances of each case and the provisions of the Enlistment Act.
Over the past 20 years, 185 NS defaulters have been convicted in Court for Enlistment Act offences. Of these, 43 received jail sentences, 140 were fined and two were punished in connection with other civil offences. Of the 140 who were fined, 35 were ultimately jailed when they did not pay their fines.
Of the 185 convicted defaulters, 127 were enlisted or are awaiting enlistment for National Service following their convictions. Two were supposed to enlist but defaulted again prior to their enlistment. 33 were not drafted as they were unsuitable for enlistment for security or medical reasons - they would not have been enlisted in any case even if they had not defaulted on NS. The remaining 23 were not drafted because they were either above the statutory age limit or no longer Singaporeans.
Of note is that the High Court had, in a 1993 case, reduced the sentences of two NS defaulters - two brothers - from eight months' imprisonment to a fine of $3,000 on appeal. This was an unusual case where it could be said that there were mitigating circumstances. Since then the Subordinate Courts have been using this case as a guideline, and not imposed a jail sentence on single-instance defaulters, no matter how long the default period was. The courts have imposed jail sentence on single instance defaulters only in cases where there are aggravating factors, such as repeated Enlistment Act offences, past criminal records, concurrent charges of other civil offences, and absconding during investigation.
It is for the Court to decide on the appropriate punishment for individual cases of NS defaulters. MINDEF had not been pressing for custodial sentences, nor had it appealed for heavier sentences. The majority of cases so far have been those who returned at a relatively young age and were still able to fulfil their National Service obligations. Half of those charged in Court over the past 20 years returned at age 21 or younger, and 80% returned at age 28 or younger. A fine for such NS defaulters was not inappropriate as they were still able to serve their National Service obligations in full.
However, Melvyn Tan’s case has highlighted an inadequacy in penalties for those who have defaulted for so many years that they are no longer able to discharge their National Service obligations in full. Since the appeal case in the High Court in 1993, besides Melvyn Tan, there have been 13 other cases of convicted defaulters who were sentenced only to a fine and who were not subsequently enlisted because they were already over 40 or almost 40. This is something that we need to look into more closely, especially as there may now be more defaulters who are 40 or older coming before the courts with the passing of time.Review of Enlistment ActSir, in the middle of last year, MINDEF embarked on a periodic review of the Enlistment Act and the Singapore Armed Forces Act. This review focused on the penalty regimes in the Acts. The review of the penalty regime in the Singapore Armed Forces Act was completed in November last year and a Bill to amend the Singapore Armed Forces Act is up for Second Reading now before the House. The proposal is to increase the maximum fine quantum provided for in the SAF Act.
The review of the Enlistment Act has taken longer, because in addition to reviewing the penalty regime, MINDEF is also studying how to modify the exit control measures to take into account the impending introduction of the biometric passport. I will provide details of the changes in the exit control measures at a later sitting when I move the Bill to amend the Enlistment Act.
Let me deal with the issues regarding the penalty regime. MINDEF considered whether, in the context of current conditions and the number of NS defaulters, it is necessary to change the nature and scale of punishments in the Enlistment Act. In particular, we looked at whether the maximum jail sentence of three years is adequate, whether we should specify a mandatory minimum jail sentence, and whether the maximum fine that can be imposed is adequate.
MINDEF will be proposing to the House to increase the maximum fine provided for in the Enlistment Act from the current $5,000 to $10,000. This will be in line with the amendment to the Singapore Armed Forces Act which is now before the House. While the maximum fine will be higher, it is important to note that the fine, like the bond, is not a substitute for serving National Service. The fine is a penalty for failing to fulfil his obligations under the Enlistment Act, and the defaulter remains liable for National Service.
MINDEF has concluded that the maximum jail sentence of three years is adequate, as it is longer than the current full-time National Service duration of two years. Whether or not a particular offence merits the maximum punishment of three years' imprisonment would be a matter for the Court to decide based on the facts of each case.
MINDEF does not consider it necessary at this time to seek a minimum mandatory jail sentence for Enlistment Act offences, as the circumstances of the cases vary widely. However, from now on, MINDEF will ask the prosecutor to press for a jail sentence in serious cases of NS defaulters, and explain why we consider a jail sentence appropriate in a particular case. Serious cases include those who default on their full-time National Service responsibilities for two years or longer from the time they were required to register or enlist, or from the time their exit permits expired for those granted deferment, whichever is later. We believe that it is in the public interest that such NS defaulters face a jail sentence, unless there are mitigating circumstances.
I would like to provide some illustrations of what MINDEF considers to be sentences appropriate to the nature of the offence or commensurate with its gravity:- Where the default period exceeds two years but the defaulter is young enough to serve his full-time and operationally ready NS duties in full, MINDEF will press for a short jail sentence.
- Where the defaulter has reached an age when he cannot serve his full-time NS in a combat vocation or fulfil his operationally ready NS obligations in full, a longer jail sentence to reflect the period of NS he has evaded may be appropriate.
- Where the defaulter has reached an age when he cannot be called up for NS at all, a jail sentence up to the maximum of three years may be appropriate.
In all instances, we expect that the Court will take into account whatever aggravating or mitigating circumstances there may be in each case to determine the appropriate sentence. -
if TS renounces his Sg Citizenship or PR status, then how?
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Source: http://www.agc.gov.sg/international/extradition.htm
International Affairs Division
Extradition
The Attorney-General’s Chambers is Singapore’s Central Authority for Extradition Matters. The International Affairs Division of the Attorney-General’s Chambers handles and processes all requests for Extradition in accordance with the provisions of the Extradition Act (Cap 103) and any applicable Extradition Treaty.
Requests for Extradition
Singapore can extradite fugitives to declared Commonwealth countries as well as countries with which Singapore has an Extradition Treaty in force, in accordance with the provisions of the Act and the applicable Extradition Treaty, as the case may be.
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Originally posted by eac:
Source: http://www.agc.gov.sg/international/extradition.htm
International Affairs Division
Extradition
The Attorney-General’s Chambers is Singapore’s Central Authority for Extradition Matters. The International Affairs Division of the Attorney-General’s Chambers handles and processes all requests for Extradition in accordance with the provisions of the Extradition Act (Cap 103) and any applicable Extradition Treaty.
Requests for Extradition
Singapore can extradite fugitives to declared Commonwealth countries as well as countries with which Singapore has an Extradition Treaty in force, in accordance with the provisions of the Act and the applicable Extradition Treaty, as the case may be.
dont get con fused with interpol and ns liabilities.
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This is a quiet little secret I heard from overseas ex-Singaporeans. Go and renounce your citizenship overseas.
Singapore has an "age 11 rule" applies if you are in Singapore and are going to leave Singapore. Within the territory of Singapore, you may not renounce Singapore citizenship beyond the age of 11.
If you are overseas, how can you expect Singapore jurisdiction to apply? Simply go to the Singapore embassy nearest you, fill up a form and get rid of it once and for all. Many have done so and will continue to do so, it takes mere minutes. This applies at any age. No one can stop you from doing so, but they may give the impression you cannot.
Your main concern is not leaving Singapore, but having citizenship or right of residence in Australia or your chosen country of residence. Make sure you have it otherwise you will be stateless.
As for that emergency travel fairy tale, what are the chances, and don't you think Australia will tell Singapore to keep its hands off its citizens?
Read the above lengthy post and you will see it applies to defaulters, ie someone who is legally liable to serve but who evades service. Non citizens are not legally liable.
A deserter is a soldier who is already enlisted and then goes missing from the armed forces.
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Originally posted by tarutaru:
you should serve because you don't know what may happened in the future let's said maybe not transit but maybe a job that required you to travel to these regions. Don't tell me you are going to turn in down or resigned if you job scope change?
I think TS is well prepared to face the consequences and not worried about "in case" scenarios.
Eg Singapore wants us to learn Chinese up to A Levels "in case we must go to China". A lot of us take physics in A Levels "in case we do engineering" but never use it in our lives. Result- years of wasted study.
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Originally posted by Cavemanzipper:
Hi, i'm 16 this year and will be going into ITE next year, then Polytechnic.
By the time I complete my diploma in Poly, I will be 22, and I intend to find some work with that diploma, probably in Australia.
My parents (Msia-born, then grew up in Australia), had me n my bro in Msia [some relatives there], then migrated both of us here (I was about 4 years old).
Didn't know we were going to be liable for NS etc. so just let it pass and my parents have already made plans with my relatives in Australia to migrate there in the middle of my studies.
My bro was not schooling when he turned 18 so he had to enlist for NS, and he's now serving.
When he's done in about a year more, they've decided to all migrate to Australia as planned, so i'll be the last person of my family line staying here in Singapore for those few years then doing NS on my own.
I've spoken to them about my concerns about my liabilities and also having to stay at the army camp as my home during my service since I won't be able to afford basic accomodation with their salary, and they told me to think about it carefully for myself which is why i'm here.
I need some second opinions...i'm a very Westernized guy because my family/household is just like that, don't forgot my parents grew up, studied and worked in Australia before giving birth to me in Malaysia, so i've got the accent and the culture in Australia is fantastic for me (been there on some family vacations).
I don't see any reason i'd need to return to Singapore, and if i'm flying from Australia up to say, Europe, there's bound to be airlines that have stopovers in Hong Kong, Dubai or Thailand instead of Singapore, so I wouldn't ever need to be in transit here.
I also don't buy into the "what if the plane needs to make an emergency landing?" myth, simply because I just won't take an airline that will be flying near/over Singapore.
Anyway, many apologies for the long post, i'm just in a real bind.
To the many Singaporean males who have served NS, I know you've been in a similiar seat to mine before and I applaud you for your strength to see the decision through in that direction, but I hope you'll understand my situation and advise me accordingly.
I'm not saying i'm any different or should be treated any different from the other NS defaulters, I just want to know if I should or shouldn't, considering that if I DO do my NS, it would take away these 2 years (then reservists) which I could better spend elsewhere.
And If I DO default, what sort of consequences am I looking at?
Not returning to Singapore/ stopping over in transit flight?
A criminal as far as Singapore is concerned?
(P.S- i've spoken to MINDEF about my issue, and they basically told me I either do it when the time comes or i'm a wanted man in Singapore's eyes.)The answer is right there in the last sentence in brackets.
Should have scoot to Oz before you became liable for NS.
Live here, study here, then pay back time, want to run.
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Originally posted by Cavemanzipper:
Hi, i'm 16 this year and will be going into ITE next year, then Polytechnic.
By the time I complete my diploma in Poly, I will be 22, and I intend to find some work with that diploma, probably in Australia.
My parents (Msia-born, then grew up in Australia), had me n my bro in Msia [some relatives there], then migrated both of us here (I was about 4 years old).
Didn't know we were going to be liable for NS etc. so just let it pass and my parents have already made plans with my relatives in Australia to migrate there in the middle of my studies.
My bro was not schooling when he turned 18 so he had to enlist for NS, and he's now serving.
When he's done in about a year more, they've decided to all migrate to Australia as planned, so i'll be the last person of my family line staying here in Singapore for those few years then doing NS on my own.
I've spoken to them about my concerns about my liabilities and also having to stay at the army camp as my home during my service since I won't be able to afford basic accomodation with their salary, and they told me to think about it carefully for myself which is why i'm here.
I need some second opinions...i'm a very Westernized guy because my family/household is just like that, don't forgot my parents grew up, studied and worked in Australia before giving birth to me in Malaysia, so i've got the accent and the culture in Australia is fantastic for me (been there on some family vacations).
I don't see any reason i'd need to return to Singapore, and if i'm flying from Australia up to say, Europe, there's bound to be airlines that have stopovers in Hong Kong, Dubai or Thailand instead of Singapore, so I wouldn't ever need to be in transit here.
I also don't buy into the "what if the plane needs to make an emergency landing?" myth, simply because I just won't take an airline that will be flying near/over Singapore.
Anyway, many apologies for the long post, i'm just in a real bind.
To the many Singaporean males who have served NS, I know you've been in a similiar seat to mine before and I applaud you for your strength to see the decision through in that direction, but I hope you'll understand my situation and advise me accordingly.
I'm not saying i'm any different or should be treated any different from the other NS defaulters, I just want to know if I should or shouldn't, considering that if I DO do my NS, it would take away these 2 years (then reservists) which I could better spend elsewhere.
And If I DO default, what sort of consequences am I looking at?
Not returning to Singapore/ stopping over in transit flight?
A criminal as far as Singapore is concerned?
(P.S- i've spoken to MINDEF about my issue, and they basically told me I either do it when the time comes or i'm a wanted man in Singapore's eyes.)I don't mind being honest with you, I'm a SG myself, I'm exempted and to be honest within this 2 years I bulid up my work life and it's been great so far.
If you want to default, go ahead, You can spend 2 years buliding up your work life in AU instead of wasting your time here. 2 years is enough for an individual to work his way up the industry to be honest. I don't encourage people to default but if your families are living in a foreign land it is a great chance, Why not?
And don't worry, I don't think AU flights to other countries will 'stopover' at SG, At most at HK then they will stop over. If you are scared why do you want to default?
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@Everybody,
Thanks for all your help and support, my decision seems much clearer now.
And to clear something up...I know it's not a very popular choice amongst males, but I want to become a nurse.
It's always been a dream of mine, and I was in the SJAB and Red Cross in Singapore and Malaysia, and I know that nurses are an extremely valuable and rare occupation in many countries because of the nature of their work.
ie. Unlike a doctor, a nurse will have to bathe some of their patients or deal with their excrement, which not many will want to do but it's a job I want to bring strength in for.
So I know that I won't be getting any compulsory job offers in Singapore for certain, because there are shortages of nurses worldwide, it's also listed highly in Australia's Skilled Worker Index which improves my migration chances and my ease of survival overseas.
@ TIB783G
Thank you for your honesty, it's very encouraging to know that. Might I ask, why were you exempted though? Medical reasons?
I thoroughly believe so as well. As an individual, that 2 years of climbing up the workforce can prove invaluable.
Althought military service looks great on a resume, it wouldn't make me feel any better to have trained myself to take lives or worse, to have just done nothing and been a storeman/clerk. -
Originally posted by eac:
Source: http://www.agc.gov.sg/international/extradition.htm
International Affairs Division
Extradition
The Attorney-General’s Chambers is Singapore’s Central Authority for Extradition Matters. The International Affairs Division of the Attorney-General’s Chambers handles and processes all requests for Extradition in accordance with the provisions of the Extradition Act (Cap 103) and any applicable Extradition Treaty.
Requests for Extradition
Singapore can extradite fugitives to declared Commonwealth countries as well as countries with which Singapore has an Extradition Treaty in force, in accordance with the provisions of the Act and the applicable Extradition Treaty, as the case may be.
I understand that there are extradition laws in place but I also know that extradition doesn't just happen straightforwardly.
First the appeal has to be valid, and to make it valid, a common condition is that the crime committed has to be a crime in the country you're requesting from as well.
So things like murderers, rapists, robbers, etc. extradition would make a lot of sense, but Australia is a country that not only doesn't view avoiding compulsory military conscription as a crime, it also has humans rights groups actively fighting for the people who seek safety usually from countries of serious physical danger (ie. the Middle East).
Though my case is not as extreme, I have quite a handful of close, personal friends who have done what i'm contemplating and by "friends" I mean they're in their mid 30s to 40s already and nothing has happened to them.
On top of that, even after the extradition request is sent out, another country has the right to reject it outright if it doesn't seem valid. And as a PR, studying and living in Australia, and as a skilled worker no less, it's not in their best interest to hand me over for something that is not a crime in their own country.
And let's say, after this extradition request is approved for review, I will be fighting my case in the foreign court FIRST, which would be Australian court.
So what alize has said previously seems very accurate.
It was something to the effect of: "Australia is allowing Singapore to operate its embassy within Australia, not the other way around, so Singapore laws don't apply in a Singapore embassy overseas."
Which makes alot of sense because i'm sure no one has been arrested for chewing gum in a Singapore embassy overseas.
And while I realize that it is still a grey, untouched and secretive area, I DO believe many, especially in recent years, have migrated overseas wholesale. -
Originally posted by Hitman Chief (Barium):
dont get con fused with interpol and ns liabilities.
Also, in response to both of you,
Courtesy of > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Extradition
Bars to extradition
By enacting laws or concluding treaties or agreements, countries determine the conditions under which they may entertain or deny extradition requests. Common bars to extradition include:
- Failure to fulfill dual criminality - generally the act for which extradition is sought must constitute a crime punishable by some minimum penalty in both the requesting and the requested parties.
- Political nature of the alleged crime - most countries refuse to extradite suspects of political crimes.
- Possibility of certain forms of punishment - some countries refuse extradition on grounds that the person, if extradited, may receive capital punishment or face torture. A few go as far as to cover all punishments that they themselves would not administer.
- Jurisdiction - Jurisdiction over a crime can be invoked to refuse extradition. In particular, the fact that the person in question is a nation's own citizen causes that country to have jurisdiction.
- Own nationals - Some countries, such as France, Germany,[2] Russia, Austria, the People's Republic of China,[3] the Republic of China (Taiwan)[4] and Japan,[5] forbid extradition of their own nationals. These countries often have laws in place that give them jurisdiction over crimes committed abroad by or against citizens. By virtue of such jurisdiction, they prosecute and try citizens accused of crimes committed abroad as if the crime had occurred within the country's borders. Some nations refuse to extradite their own citizens, holding trials for the persons themselves (see e.g. trial of Xiao Zhen).
- Death penalty - Many countries, such as Australia, Canada, Macao,[6] Mexico, and most European nations, will not allow extradition if the death penalty may be imposed on the suspect unless they are assured that the death sentence will not be passed or carried out.
- Torture, inhuman or degrading treatment or punishment - Many countries will not extradite if there is a risk that a requested person will be subjected to torture, inhuman or degrading treatment or punishment. In the case of Soering v United Kingdom, the European Court of Human Rights held that it would violate Article 3 of the European Convention on Human Rights to extradite a person to the United States from the United Kingdom in a capital case. This was due to the harsh conditions on death row and the uncertain timescale within which the sentence would be executed.
[edit]
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What is your nationality?
What's your status in Singapore?
Singapore and Hong Kong are prime transit destinations for the major airlines.
I know what you're thinking.
Better contemplate wisely...
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The Immigration & Checkpoint Authority (ICA) has rejected the application of Zhang Junyi to denounce his Singapore citizenship, citing that he is not yet a legal adult. In addition, the ICA also reminded Zhang of his National Service obligation when he becomes 18 year-old. In response, Zhang sought a judicial review on ICA's decision.
Zhang Junyi filed his request to the Supreme Court through his father Zhang Shaowei. Zhang Junyi was represented by lawyer Lee Jing Xiong who asked the Supreme Court to review the decision of the ICA and the Ministry of Defence on Zhang Junyi's case.
Zhang Junyi urged the Court to rule that he is eligible to renounce his Singapore citizenship, he doesn't qualify for national service, and that his notice to the ICA last year which declared his intention to renounce citizenship is valid.
Zhang Junyi is due for National Service registration soon. He is currently on an exit permit which cleared him for overseas studies. The exit permit will expire on 30 December 2011. The law requires males eligible for National Service to register with the Ministry of Defence when they turn 16.5 years old.
Zhang Junyi's parents Zhang Shaowei and Liang Jiali emigrated to Singapore in January 1996. They converted to Singapore citizenship, along with Zhang Junyi's 2 elder sisters. 2 months after gaining citizenship, they moved to Hongkong.
Zhang Junyi was borned in Hongkong 3 months after his family moved there. Subsequently, Zhang Junyi was granted Singapore citizenship the following Febraury. He lived in Hongkong until he returned to Singapore in 2005 at the age of 10 to study.
In August 2010, Zhang Junyi applied to Hongkong Department of Immigration to restore his Chinese citizenship. Although the Department accepted his application, it was conditional that he relinquishes his Singapore citizenship. 4 months later, Zhang Junyi notified the ICA of his intention to renouce his Singapore citizenship.
However. the ICA rejected his application, citing Section 1, Article 128 of the Singapore Constitution that a citizen can only give up his citizenship when he is above 21 years old and that parents may not make such a decision for the child. The ICA also added that according to Section 2, Article 128 of the Singapore Constitution, Zhang Junyi is obligated to complete his National Service as long as he remains a Singapore citizen.
The Central Manpower Base (CPMB) also suggested that Zhang Junyi should postpone his application for change of citizenship until he has turned 21 years old and that he has completed his National Service. CMPB will consider his application.
In response, Zhang Junyi described the constitutional interpretation of the ICA and the CMPB as "illogical and unfair", citing 3 points. Firstly, the Singapore citizenship was imposed on him because his parents emigrated to Singapore.
Secondly, he is not a 100% citizen because he will only be accorded with full citizenship rights as soon as he relinquished other citizenships within a year after he turned 21 years old. As such, the aforementioned constitutional provisions are irrelevant.
Thirdly, the Enlistment Act does not apply on him because he was less than 16 years old when he first declared his intention to ICA to renounce his Singapore citizenship.
The Attorney General's Chamber (AGC) was notified of the application for judicial review in the middle of November by Zhang Junyi's lawyer Mr Lee Jing Xiong. The pre-conference trial starts today.
Expert: "Interesting" Judicial Review
Constitutional law expert Dr Kevin Tan told Zaobao this would be an "interesting" judicial review. He also pointed out that the Courts rarely take on cases which involve citizenship rights because very few people would submit such issues to the Courts.
He also added that Zhang Junyi may not succeed in securing a judicial review because both the ICA and the CMPB did not act wilfully or irregularly, and as well as exceed their jurisdictions.
Dr Kevin Tan said that Article 128 of the Singapore Constitution appears absolute and that only Singaporeans above the age of 21 are eligible to renounce their citizenship.
Few days ago, Minster of Defence Dr Ng Eng Hen revealed in Parliament 8800 sons of new immigrants had been enlisted for National Service over the last five years. Among them, 6100 (70%) opted to become Singapore citizens.
However, among second-generation permanent residents, 4200 gave up their permanent residency over the same period. In another words, for every three sons of permanent residents, two would enlist while one would give up his permanent residency status in order to forgo national service. -
looks like you are getting some more feedback comments here as well:
http://www.reach.gov.sg/YourSay/DiscussionForum/tabid/101/mode/3/Default.aspx?ssFormAction=[[ssBlogThread_VIEW]]&tid=[[7278]] -
Originally posted by eac:
The Immigration & Checkpoint Authority (ICA) has rejected the application of Zhang Junyi to denounce his Singapore citizenship, citing that he is not yet a legal adult. In addition, the ICA also reminded Zhang of his National Service obligation when he becomes 18 year-old. In response, Zhang sought a judicial review on ICA's decision.
Zhang Junyi filed his request to the Supreme Court through his father Zhang Shaowei. Zhang Junyi was represented by lawyer Lee Jing Xiong who asked the Supreme Court to review the decision of the ICA and the Ministry of Defence on Zhang Junyi's case.
Zhang Junyi urged the Court to rule that he is eligible to renounce his Singapore citizenship, he doesn't qualify for national service, and that his notice to the ICA last year which declared his intention to renounce citizenship is valid.
Zhang Junyi is due for National Service registration soon. He is currently on an exit permit which cleared him for overseas studies. The exit permit will expire on 30 December 2011. The law requires males eligible for National Service to register with the Ministry of Defence when they turn 16.5 years old.
Zhang Junyi's parents Zhang Shaowei and Liang Jiali emigrated to Singapore in January 1996. They converted to Singapore citizenship, along with Zhang Junyi's 2 elder sisters. 2 months after gaining citizenship, they moved to Hongkong.
Zhang Junyi was borned in Hongkong 3 months after his family moved there. Subsequently, Zhang Junyi was granted Singapore citizenship the following Febraury. He lived in Hongkong until he returned to Singapore in 2005 at the age of 10 to study.
In August 2010, Zhang Junyi applied to Hongkong Department of Immigration to restore his Chinese citizenship. Although the Department accepted his application, it was conditional that he relinquishes his Singapore citizenship. 4 months later, Zhang Junyi notified the ICA of his intention to renouce his Singapore citizenship.
However. the ICA rejected his application, citing Section 1, Article 128 of the Singapore Constitution that a citizen can only give up his citizenship when he is above 21 years old and that parents may not make such a decision for the child. The ICA also added that according to Section 2, Article 128 of the Singapore Constitution, Zhang Junyi is obligated to complete his National Service as long as he remains a Singapore citizen.
The Central Manpower Base (CPMB) also suggested that Zhang Junyi should postpone his application for change of citizenship until he has turned 21 years old and that he has completed his National Service. CMPB will consider his application.
In response, Zhang Junyi described the constitutional interpretation of the ICA and the CMPB as "illogical and unfair", citing 3 points. Firstly, the Singapore citizenship was imposed on him because his parents emigrated to Singapore.
Secondly, he is not a 100% citizen because he will only be accorded with full citizenship rights as soon as he relinquished other citizenships within a year after he turned 21 years old. As such, the aforementioned constitutional provisions are irrelevant.
Thirdly, the Enlistment Act does not apply on him because he was less than 16 years old when he first declared his intention to ICA to renounce his Singapore citizenship.
The Attorney General's Chamber (AGC) was notified of the application for judicial review in the middle of November by Zhang Junyi's lawyer Mr Lee Jing Xiong. The pre-conference trial starts today.
Expert: "Interesting" Judicial Review
Constitutional law expert Dr Kevin Tan told Zaobao this would be an "interesting" judicial review. He also pointed out that the Courts rarely take on cases which involve citizenship rights because very few people would submit such issues to the Courts.
He also added that Zhang Junyi may not succeed in securing a judicial review because both the ICA and the CMPB did not act wilfully or irregularly, and as well as exceed their jurisdictions.
Dr Kevin Tan said that Article 128 of the Singapore Constitution appears absolute and that only Singaporeans above the age of 21 are eligible to renounce their citizenship.
Few days ago, Minster of Defence Dr Ng Eng Hen revealed in Parliament 8800 sons of new immigrants had been enlisted for National Service over the last five years. Among them, 6100 (70%) opted to become Singapore citizens.
However, among second-generation permanent residents, 4200 gave up their permanent residency over the same period. In another words, for every three sons of permanent residents, two would enlist while one would give up his permanent residency status in order to forgo national service.What happens if he is overseas at the age of 18 because he has somehow not enlisted into the SAF? He will then be a legal adult according to the definition of "legal adult" in Singapore and/or the foreign jurisdiction. Will he then be able to renounce it? What if a foreign jurisdiction, that he will come under, allows him to renounce it regardless of adult status?
Secondly, assuming he has no elective rights of his own, his parents exercised his elective rights on his behalf and brought him into Singapore citizenship. Why can't they similarly exercise them to bring him out of it?
This passage I reallty don't understand. If 1/3 of PRs have left Singapore before doing NS rather than do it, what way out have they taken?
Thirdly, who knows. He might be the world's first refugee or asylum seeker who takes refuge in China. Which would be hypocritical because China in theory has conscription which is never practiced.
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Zhang Junyi is due for National Service registration soon. He is currently on an exit permit which cleared him for overseas studies. The exit permit will expire on 30 December 2011.What has happened since then?
Zhang Junyi was borned in Hong KongWho wrote this article?
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Hello, for those who defaulted their NS and are living overseas, what would happen to their parents here? What about the defaulter's citizenship? Can they ever renounce it even if they are 21?