Witness relates dunking death of soldier
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You mean getting his rulings overturned on the grounds of improper procedure?Originally posted by iveco:I hope CJ Yong does what he is best at. -
Agreed, duajia. As you've said, by the logic of dragging Cpt Pandiaraj and WO Bala into the case, they've opened up a line of argument that ultimately leads to charging Teo Chee Hean for the death. After all, as Defence Minister, wasn't he in a position to stop it?Originally posted by duajia:In this dunking accident, I still feel that the people who should be charged are the two lieutenants that have carried out the act. Morally, why stop at the officer commanding if you are going to charge beyond the 2 officers directly involved. It is not about moral issues anymore. It is more about filling the blanks to bear the blame. And in my point of view, Cpt Pandiaraj is a scapegoat made to bear the blame for giving the orders. Read the New Paper on last Saturday and one will know the integrity of that man.
If you think that proposal sounds ridiculous, it's just as ridiculous as charging men who were not directly and physically involved in the dunking because it runs along the exact same line of logic.
I've got no problems with the two LTAs being charged - those forumites here who have been around long enough will know that I was even accused by fellow Commandos of being a traitor for taking that stance. However, that where I see the line being drawn - go any further and you may as well go all the way up the chain of command. Stopping at Pandiaraj and Bala is scapegoating and a half-measure that screams hypocrisy. Whoever is up in arms about the undoubtedly great loss of a fine young man, push for the inclusion of COA, CDF and the Defence Minister in the defendant's dock.
With regards to fudgester's statement about service records not counting, I ask that you consider the following. This is a man who made good of the SAF's trust in him to run a peacekeeping operation. Given that this man has demonstrated the good judgement that made his peacekeeping tour a success, isn't it out of character that he is the person responsible for this fiasco? Something fails to add up here, and therein lies the relevance of the service record. -
Gentlemen, if I may say something......
I read in another thread somewhere in Speaker's Corner that one of the forummites (heng) was a friend of the victim. The thing is, he has already accepted the punishment meted out to the perps and would like everyone to stop talking about those four.
While I personally believe that those four should have been much more harshly charged and punished, perhaps the best idea is to follow heng's example. If he can accept the punishments and have closure, I suppose the rest of us can. As it is if the perps have any conscience (which I sincerely hope they do), they're going to be haunted with the memory of having killed a good man. I'm sure that is going to be punishment in itself, and no amount of further punishment meted out to the perps is going to bring the victim back to life.
Anyway, I'm sorry if some of my postings were harshly-worded.... they were made in the heat of the moment, and that's not what I'm usually like in real life. The logical and rational me would not stoop down so low.
I'm also sorry if there were any inacccuracies in my postings..... My information is only as good as the one that I receive (and recall), and my sources and my memory may not always be that reliable.
I just hope that the family can find some sort of closure and peace.....
And I hope that none of this would ever happen again in the SAF..... the enemy is out there, not our soldiers. -
Agreed, duajia. As you've said, by the logic of dragging Cpt Pandiaraj and WO Bala into the case, they've opened up a line of argument that ultimately leads to charging Teo Chee Hean for the death. After all, as Defence Minister, wasn't he in a position to stop it?
Still after TCH's head?
Check the SAF chain of command, which sez there's at least 4 hierarchical levels before it reaches the Defence Minister: School of Commando CO (then Ho Kian Soon), Chief Commando Officer (then Noel Cheah), Chief of Army (then Desmond Kuek) & Chief of Defence Force (then Ng Yat Chung). Or are you suggesting that the CDOs are so grand that they answer directly to TCH & thus the latter must be held accountable too?
[For those keeping track, only Ng Yat Chung has been subsequently promoted, from MG to LG ~shrugs~ I recall reading Desmond Kuek's advancement, from BG to MG, came 2 months before Hu En Huai's death; let's see if he succeeds Ng as CDF. Noel Cheah & Ho Kian Soon are transferred to staff commands, IMO lucky chaps.]And in my point of view, Cpt Pandiaraj is a scapegoat made to bear the blame for giving the orders
Disagree. I have no qualms with Pandiaraj's professional achievements - not even with his court testimonies, which were largely dignified compared to Diva's "took a dump & went for long walk" spin. But Pandiaraj has to take responsibility cuz he was, plainly, supervising officer for the course & he was there on the ground that day. Now, the court testimonies revealed his relatively inexperience: being posted in only less than 3 months, & then overseeing one prior CST course (79th batch) before the tragedy happened.
But IMO he was nevertheless indirectly culpable cuz:
(a) he said he reviewed 50+ lesson plans but not the CST one,
(b) he tacitly approved the dunkings of the 79th batch, against better judgement, cuz he went through the same thing in Ranger training - as if the intensity levels of both courses are the same,
(c) he didn't stop the cowboy instructors, namely Jeff Ng & Diva, who testified they weren't supposed to be there on the day, but who showed up impromptuly & - according to other less-experiened instructors' testimonies - dominated the dunking drill.
(d) he tried some sort of covering up after the incident by altering the details of the cse document.
However, the most damning, as related to his charge (which was instigating the instructors rather than outright causing grievous hurt) was:
(e) he took on an active role on the day, by interrogating Hu himself & also indicating Ho Wan Huo's rank to another instructor (instead of staying on the sidelines as his job dictates). Even Balakrishnan testified that "appointment holders like Captain Pandiaraj... should not have been involved in conducting the prisoner of war training. Instead, they should have focused on their appointed role."The bottom line is who really killed the good man? The lieutenants directly in charge of the dunking? The people who started the tradition of dunking? Or the people who knew about it all along but didn't stop it? Should all the three groups be responsible? If that is the case, I think there should be more implications up the higher echelons rather than just stopping at the officer commanding.
This is a criminal proceedings, & I approve of the guilty verdicts. Metaphorically, if this was a drink-driving charge it's not about blaming the car manufacturer or the pub that sold him the drinks or the girlfriend problems that made him togo in the first place. Yes, along the way the relevant SAF elements have been exposed for some very sloppy SOPs, & that's not the court's business per se.
Thus far it appeared the disciplinary actions extended only to the CDO Formation, with its senior commanders taking the fall. It's everyone's perogative on whether to view the careers of Desmond Kuek & Ng Yat Chung as tainted. But I think it's very lucky that the other CST course trainers weren't hauled to military court for their illegal actions, even as the civilian law didn't touch them for directly victimizing Hu & Ho. -
With CJ Yong, there is no reduction in the jail term. It is always the opposite.Originally posted by Gedanken:You mean getting his rulings overturned on the grounds of improper procedure? -
Still have a reading disability or attention deficiency, or are you just being deliberately dense?Originally posted by Moxie:Still after TCH's head?
Check the SAF chain of command, which sez there's at least 4 hierarchical levels before it reaches the Defence Minister: School of Commando CO (then Ho Kian Soon), Chief Commando Officer (then Noel Cheah), Chief of Army (then Desmond Kuek) & Chief of Defence Force (then Ng Yat Chung). Or are you suggesting that the CDOs are so grand that they answer directly to TCH & thus the latter must be held accountable too?
If you do have enough capacity to take in two paragraphs or more, you would see that I have stated that going after TCH is an idea as ridiculous as going after anyone besides the two LTAs.
Second, which part of "chain of command" don't you understand? Did I state anywhere that COA, CDF and TCH comprise a comprehensive list?
Damning? He interrogated the trainees and that necessarily means he said "dunk them"? That's a very long stretch.Originally posted by Moxie:However, the most damning, as related to his charge (which was instigating the instructors rather than outright causing grievous hurt) was:
(e) he took on an active role on the day, by interrogating Hu himself & also indicating Ho Wan Huo's rank to another instructor (instead of staying on the sidelines as his job dictates). Even Balakrishnan testified that "appointment holders like Captain Pandiaraj... should not have been involved in conducting the prisoner of war training. Instead, they should have focused on their appointed role."
I'm sure your approval will help me sleep better at night.Originally posted by Moxie:This is a criminal proceedings, & I approve of the guilty verdicts. Metaphorically, if this was a drink-driving charge it's not about blaming the car manufacturer or the pub that sold him the drinks or the girlfriend problems that made him togo in the first place. Yes, along the way the relevant SAF elements have been exposed for some very sloppy SOPs, & that's not the court's business per se.
Thus far it appeared the disciplinary actions extended only to the CDO Formation, with its senior commanders taking the fall. It's everyone's perogative on whether to view the careers of Desmond Kuek & Ng Yat Chung as tainted. But I think it's very lucky that the other CST course trainers weren't hauled to military court for their illegal actions, even as the civilian law didn't touch them for directly victimizing Hu & Ho.
I'm glad you presented that drink-driving analogy (it's not a metaphor, by the way). In that scenario, dragging Pandiaraj to court would be equivalent of charging the guy who didn't take the driver's car keys away. You don't see that happening too often, do you? -
Har har. Give up on the TCH idea, lah. Wasn't me who keep bringing him up.
The criminal charge against Pandiaraj was specific enough: "[He] instigated the instructors..." In other words, different from Jeff Ng/Diva's. Didn't matter whether Pandiaraj actually dunked them or not. Guilty as charged
Drink-driving analogy: It's more akin to a drunk Pandiaraj driving towards the victim, handing over the steering wheel prior to contact (but acknowledging that the new driver shouldn't stop anyway). -
Most foreigners know that in Singapore, if you're caught by the local police, you're definately guilty until proven innocent. Its only in the U.S that the saying goes, you're innocent until proven guilty.Originally posted by lwflee:-------------
How come you guys keep complaining that those guys may appeal. Its their RIGHT to appeal. Come on, don't deny them that right. In fact, i have issues with the way the CJ handles appeal; by consistently (it would seem to be but i'm not sure) inscreasing the sentences of people who appeal, he is making a travesty of the judicial system and of the principle that one is innnocent until proven guilty.
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Sheesh, you really are thick. I said the idea of going after TCH is ridiculous, and I brought it up to illustrate how ridiculous the charges against Pandiaraj are. Do learn to read - you'll find it effort well spent.Originally posted by Moxie:Har har. Give up on the TCH idea, lah. Wasn't me who keep bringing him up.
Do also find out what a dictionary is, learn how to use it, and find out the meaning of "instigate". Until then, your self-proclaimed verdict means nothing. Actually, your self-proclaimed verdict means nothing under any circumstances.Originally posted by Moxie:The criminal charge against Pandiaraj was specific enough: "[He] instigated the instructors..." In other words, different from Jeff Ng/Diva's. Didn't matter whether Pandiaraj actually dunked them or not. Guilty as charged
And if he wasn't in the driver's seat he still wouldn't be charged. Thanks for proving my point.Originally posted by Moxie:Drink-driving analogy: It's more akin to a drunk Pandiaraj driving towards the victim, handing over the steering wheel prior to contact (but acknowledging that the new driver shouldn't stop anyway). -
I remember this political cartoon when OJ Simpson released his "I want to tell you" book.
It depicted a speech balloon over a grave with Nicole's name on the headstone, saying "I want to tell you too."
Food of thought for all - Now that Pandiaraj's giving interviews to the press to humanize his plight, I ask: Who speaks for the dead? Why shouldn't Hu En Huai feel aggrieved at where the media spotlight is shining, & people saying one of the abetters is a "scapegoat" when court testimonies revealed that he was an active participant whose instigation on the ground led to an innocent's death?
I noted that there was no board postings on August 21 last year to remember Hu's death. Will everyone forget again on the same anniversary date in 2005? -
Moxie, that's a question for Heng to answer. As Sgt Hu's friend, and as the first person to publicly call for justice (something that the Straits Times picked up from Military Nuts), he would be the best person to address the issues you've just raised.
I doubt you'd be satisfied with his answer, though, the way you're carrying on. -
then let me answer this. That is because 2SG Hu knows exactly who the ones who dunked him are. They are nowhere near the court. And you really trust court proceedings too much. IF you are NOT in the know, you are NOT in the know. And do think about it. How do you instigate something that is part of the training program? Instigation implies the act of something that is not normally carried out, and a spur of the moment act. Unfortunately EVERYONE, including yourself I am sure, knows that dunking has been part of the program for years, although unofficial, and that it is very much planned as a part of the training. So pray tell me, how do you "instigate" a training program to happen? Do you seriously think you can say your BMT Plt Sgt instigated you to do SOC training or swimming lessons? DUH.Originally posted by Moxie:I remember this political cartoon when OJ Simpson released his "I want to tell you" book.
It depicted a speech balloon over a grave with Nicole's name on the headstone, saying "I want to tell you too."
Food of thought for all - Now that Pandiaraj's giving interviews to the press to humanize his plight, I ask: Who speaks for the dead? Why shouldn't Hu En Huai feel aggrieved at where the media spotlight is shining, & people saying one of the abetters is a "scapegoat" when court testimonies revealed that he was an active participant whose instigation on the ground led to an innocent's death?
I noted that there was no board postings on August 21 last year to remember Hu's death. Will everyone forget again on the same anniversary date in 2005? -
Man, that's impressive. Heng's a friend of Sgt Hu's, and I'm a friend of Pandiaraj's, and Moxie here has managed to get offside with both of us by putting his mouth in fifth while his brain's in neutral.
Let's hear it for Moxie and his talent for making an all-aspect ass of himself! -
This is very interesting.So who are the ones who dunked 2SG Hu?And it is a very serious thing if scapegoats were named for any reason because it is a lie of the tallest order.Originally posted by HENG@:then let me answer this. That is because 2SG Hu knows exactly who the ones who dunked him are. They are nowhere near the court. And you really trust court proceedings too much. IF you are NOT in the know, you are NOT in the know. And do think about it. How do you instigate something that is part of the training program? Instigation implies the act of something that is not normally carried out, and a spur of the moment act. Unfortunately EVERYONE, including yourself I am sure, knows that dunking has been part of the program for years, although unofficial, and that it is very much planned as a part of the training. So pray tell me, how do you "instigate" a training program to happen? Do you seriously think you can say your BMT Plt Sgt instigated you to do SOC training or swimming lessons? DUH. -
LazerLordz, there's a fairly limited number of people who are known by the powers-that-be to know what actually happened, so giving any specifics here would be a huge disservice to them. If you wish, call the claim that someone else did it bullsh*t, but that's an easier thing to live with than the consequences of anything else getting out at this point in time.
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No worries.As long as the truth lives on in the hearts of some people.It's qute alright at this point of time.Just know that karma is not one kind b*tch..So those who are guilty will have a "generous" payback.Originally posted by Gedanken:LazerLordz, there's a fairly limited number of people who are known by the powers-that-be to know what actually happened, so giving any specifics here would be a huge disservice to them. If you wish, call the claim that someone else did it bullsh*t, but that's an easier thing to live with than the consequences of anything else getting out at this point in time. -
Ooh, Moxie's gone all quiet. Funny how that happened when push came to shove, and I offered him an opportunity to come out from behind his keyboard to expound that opinion he's so proud of.
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Actually there are worries. I might just be worried enough to write an email to mindef about this.Originally posted by LazerLordz:No worries.As long as the truth lives on in the hearts of some people.It's qute alright at this point of time.Just know that karma is not one kind b*tch..So those who are guilty will have a "generous" payback.
I do not like it when my government does things like that. -
I would recommend against that, lwflee. First, they'll say they don't know what you're talking about, if they even bother to reply. Then they'll start looking for a leak, and that might get Heng into some bother. Let's not go opening up a new can of worms, eh?Originally posted by lwflee:Actually there are worries. I might just be worried enough to write an email to mindef about this.
I do not like it when my government does things like that.
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nobody does. but don't we all know, this is how the PAP works.Originally posted by lwflee:Actually there are worries. I might just be worried enough to write an email to mindef about this.
I do not like it when my government does things like that. -
Don't worry.Karma will pay them back.And no one's conscience will save them from the deeds they have done.Let God deal with them.2SG Hu died and he taught us very valuable things even after his sad demise.Let's all learn from this and keep ourselves safe.Originally posted by lwflee:Actually there are worries. I might just be worried enough to write an email to mindef about this.
I do not like it when my government does things like that.
Has our government been a motherly figure all this while?Nah. -
Still here, troll.
As stated, I distinguished all the while between the criminal case vs. the sloppy SOPs. For all I care, they could throw the book at all the current past/present trainers & commanders on the latter charge.
For hurting Hu & Ho - the law has spoken, & justice served. -
And like I said, tosser, I'm just going to sleep soooooooo much better with your puerile pronunciation of propriety.Originally posted by Moxie:Still here, troll.
As stated, I distinguished all the while between the criminal case vs. the sloppy SOPs. For all I care, they could throw the book at all the current past/present trainers & commanders on the latter charge.
For hurting Hu & Ho - the law has spoken, & justice served.
From both sides of this debate, your arguments have failed to stand, so I'll take your "law has spoken" claim as demonstration that you personally don't have a leg to stand on, and you're just blindly toeing the company line. -
Hmm, 4th time you mentioned "sleep" when responding to me.
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Welcome to the reality behind the red, white, crest and stars.Originally posted by lwflee:Actually there are worries. I might just be worried enough to write an email to mindef about this.
I do not like it when my government does things like that.